Anglo Saxons 23 - 17 Irish Wolfhounds

First topic message reminder :

The scorers:

For England Saxons:
Tries: Spencer, Waldrom
Con: Burns 2
Pen: Burns 3

For Irish Wolfhounds:
Tries: Kearney, O'Leary, Zebo
Con: Madigan

I think the only person who looks at it that way is you honestly - very strange logic there.

DOD wrote: TOL gets almost equal game time to Murray...they are used interchangably at Munster. Plus TOL is still a good SH...

So you are saying Murray has less game time than Marshall as well - even more bizarre.

DOD wrote:To reiterate before you go off topic...as long as Pienaar is preferred to Marshall for the HC team he will not get picked

So why were Archer, Toner, Ruddock, Boss, Keatley, Madigan, Spence, O'Malley, D. Kearney, Sherry in the squad then - none of them are first choice players

Geoff you aren't reading it right - because Marshall is behind an NIQ player, which for some reason only DOD must know, makes a massive difference. Don't you see?? The rest are only behind Irish players. So they must be better/more eligible for selection than Marshall. The logic behind that is great isn't it?

If you read the Indo, they were all there to check out the pecking order. So, basically, Kidney needed to see the likes of Luke fitz (unfortunately injured) and Boss, O'Leary and maybe who the backup 2nd & backrows are.

Being realistic about it, Marshall is not going to get ahead of either Murray or Reddan who will be partnering their provincial half-back partners.

Geoff, which of Boss or O'Leary would you have dropped to facilitate Marshall's selection?

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On a side note, just heard on the radio that the Joe Duffy phone in (on RTE) are going to discuss the playing of the Munster v Ulster qf on Easter Sunday. Its on about 1.40 rte1 anyone who wants to listen to it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Geoff you aren't reading it right - because Marshall is behind an NIQ player, which for some reason only DOD must know, makes a massive difference. Don't you see?? The rest are only behind Irish players. So they must be better/more eligible for selection than Marshall. The logic behind that is great isn't it?

I'd say its more of O'Leary has been there and done that (HC, GS, Magners winner ect, selected for a Lions Tour). Marshall is not much younger than O'Leary - what has he achieved in his career?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Geoff you aren't reading it right - because Marshall is behind an NIQ player, which for some reason only DOD must know, makes a massive difference. Don't you see?? The rest are only behind Irish players. So they must be better/more eligible for selection than Marshall. The logic behind that is great isn't it?

Yeah it allows a Munster player to be selected so obviously it works,he suggested earlier that Stan Wright was pushed aside to make room for Mike Ross yet in other threads has taken shots at Leinster for only bringing Ross through when Wright got injured.

He's not only hypocritical but he's a terrible debater who contradicts himself and when he finally loses the debate will storm off in a huff with some parting comment suggesting nobody else knows anything about rugby but him/

Sin é wrote:On a side note, just heard on the radio that the Joe Duffy phone in (on RTE) are going to discuss the playing of the Munster v Ulster qf on Easter Sunday. Its on about 1.40 rte1 anyone who wants to listen to it.

Oh no - this can only mean one thing, there is a national outcry on the way.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Geoff you aren't reading it right - because Marshall is behind an NIQ player, which for some reason only DOD must know, makes a massive difference. Don't you see?? The rest are only behind Irish players. So they must be better/more eligible for selection than Marshall. The logic behind that is great isn't it?

I'd say its more of O'Leary has been there and done that (HC, GS, Magners winner ect, selected for a Lions Tour). Marshall is not much younger than O'Leary - what has he achieved in his career?

Firstly, the point DOD made was that the reason Marshall isn't selected is because he isn't first choice. When completely caught out there, he said it is because he is behind an NIQ player, because somehow that makes sense. At least you are making fair enough points about why TOL would be ahead of Marshall.

But anyway, of course Marshall hasn't achieved as much in his career as the other options, but this season he has been the best SH on form. Why should the selectors look at him and think "oh but what has he achieved so far.." by that logic we wouldn't get to see very many new players now would we? Marshall deserved his chance.

You make a fair enough point, but I am not accepting rubbish such as "Marshall wasn't selected because there was an NIQ in front of him". Might as well say "because he isn't from Munster".

Oh Rory you are a tool at the best of times.

You are factually correct I did not mention NIQ player at the start...go and have a good w..k for yourself now in celebration

It is a fact that if the person is not first choice for the province for the HC he will not get picked for Ireland. Secondly is that there is an NIQ ahead of him in terms of choice.

Asoreleftshoulder (tool #2) .Ross did only get his game with Leinster because Wright was injured. He was behind Wright at the time.

In addition Marshall has shown some form but was cr.p at the start of the season and there is plenty of cover at 9...maybe just maybe he wasnt considered to have got above the four from Leinster/Munster.

Okay, but it has already been listed that most of the players playing were not even first choice so that makes no sense. Having an NIQ ahead of him doesn't make one bit of difference. Calling me a tool is all you can resort to when you are completely wrong, and still too arrogant to admit it.

DOD wrote:Rory...like I said look at the way it goes...Nacewa is moved to the wing...for Kearney, Mike Ross previously with Stan Wright. As long as an NIQ is in the primary position then the player is not good enough for playing for Ireland...that is the way it is looked at. Regardless as to whether Marshall is scoring, tries for fun or whatever.

How did Dave Kearney and Simon Zebo get selected then? They're behind Nacewa and Howlett respectively.

I presume you won't be complaining next season if Earls doesn't make the Ireland team because he's behind Laulaua in the Munster midfield pecking order?

DOD wrote:

Asoreleftshoulder (tool #2) .Ross did only get his game with Leinster because Wright was injured. He was behind Wright at the time.

I'm well aware of that but in this thread you said "like I said look at the way it goes...Nacewa is moved to the wing...for Kearney, Mike Ross previously with Stan Wright." Now either Ross got his place through an injury to Wright or he was moved in because he's IQ you can't change the reasoning to suit the argument you're having so pick one story and stay consistent.

Oh and the personal abuse shows just how poor you are at arguing your point,you should learn from Sin he might drive me nuts with his arguments that I just can't agree with but he keeps his cool and never stoops to that kind of comment.That's one of the reasons people continue to engage him in debate whereas someone who resorts to childish name calling soon gets ignored.

Archer is behind Botha
Kearney is behind Nacewa
etc etc whats the difference

Sin e on form I would have picked Marshall ahead of TOL although paradoxically TOL outplayed Boss. The bottom line is Marshall's form this year is better than TOL's and much better than Boss' on Friday. I am not even saying he should have started but he did deserve a 30 mins as a sub gvien the quality of his play this year.

It's obvious that whether a player has an IE or a NIE in front of him at his province has nothing to do with selection for the Wolfhounds. e.g. Archer is behind Botha who is the first choice HEC starter, whereas Hagan is behind Ross.

Marshall wasn't selected as Kidney obviously doesn't rate him ahead of either Boss or O'Leary. Why does there need to be any further complicated explanation?

miteyironpaw wrote:
I disagree entirely. I didn't say there was anything wrong with the front 5 being dominant over the wolfhounds - I'm just saying that what we needed was to find dominance in the areas where we struggle, rather than where we're traditionally strong. I don't agree that the back line shambles was due to lack of familiarity. A majority of broken moves included passes that clearly weren't directed at a target at all - and like I said I didn't see a single set piece back line move executed that was anything other than shoveling the ball down the line. On counter attack we just didn't have a clue how to work the space that was available. It's not about lack of combinations it's about lack of awareness and lack of basic ability.

Well I'm not sure what you are saying at-all then. Of course England wanted to play well in all aspects of the game. I'm pleased we smashed them up front, but the fact is we were 11 points up with time up. Now there must be an explanation for that which goes beyond winning a few scrums. I'd suggest we were physcially dominant in the forwards in open play, that the half backs were fine and the breakdown went better than it usually does for English sides against Irish ones, although it certainly needs to go better.

The backs were disjointed, but there were backs moves off line-outs and to say they lack ability is frankly ludicrous. I suggest you check out Graham Henry's views of the abilities of English backs.

Red Right wrote:

Sin é wrote:On a side note, just heard on the radio that the Joe Duffy phone in (on RTE) are going to discuss the playing of the Munster v Ulster qf on Easter Sunday. Its on about 1.40 rte1 anyone who wants to listen to it.

Oh no - this can only mean one thing, there is a national outcry on the way.

Joe Duffy

It is dispiriting/amusing reading this thread. It's the blind fighting the blind

a) Marshall was awful for Ulster at the start of the season, then turned his form right around and started playing very, very well. I have no doubt that if he continues to play like that he will get a chance sooner or later. But the same posters who lambast TOLs passing abilities have to admit it is Marshals achilles heel as well and he needs to keep this form up to prove his consistency.

b) On the other side of the argument, Marshall has had more gametime this season than O'Leary and Boss. In fact, Marshalls best game of the season came at Welford Road away against Leicester. Like O'Leary and Boss, he is not first choice. And like O'Leary and Boss there is a reason for that...

You're all bald men fighting over a comb as far as I'm concerned. The two 9s that should be in the 22 for the Six Nations are Murray and Reddan, no doubt about it. If Marshall was named in the Wolfhounds he would have deserved it. But its hardly a big deal.

Notch wrote: Like O'Leary and Boss, he is not first choice. And like O'Leary and Boss there is a reason for that...

O'Leary and Boss aren't competing with Pienaar for a starting spot. Boss is a horses for courses starter at Leinster and TOL just isn't very good, in fact Munster missed a trick not offloading him and keeping Stringer instead.

TOL never in his wildest dreams has ever played the way Marshall has over the past few months. The only thing holding back Marshall in the past was consistancy and now he is finding that.

If he keeps in his current vein of form then he's top 2/3 in the country, never mind top 4.

Can I have that comb back please....