Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

by hawkeye Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:12 am

Lots of talk about players "abusing" the 20 second time rule between points. Is it the players who are getting it wrong or is it the rule that needs changing? Of course if play consists of aces or return winners most players will probably only need 20 seconds in order to be ready to serve again. After all they will be still standing on the base line and all they will require is a couple more balls from the ball boy.

However there are lots of occasions when perhaps 20 seconds isn't really long enough for players to get ready to play the next point. Of course the umpire is able to grant a little flexability but if they have to do it on too regular a basis then it begins to make the rule itself look obsolete.

So why not change the rule itself and make it fit todays style of play. There are after all far fewer of the short points that existed when the rule was introduced. Do we really need speed tennis?

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:36 am

I don't know. What I am sure though is that 6 hours for a tennis match is way too long for just 1h30 only of ball in play and to provide decent shot making al along. Can you imagine a player staying 6 hours "in the zone" if ever he was to get there?

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:56 am

Were they saying in that match that the average rally per point was 5 to 6? That's about 12s of ball in play per minute...the rest is wasted time. So in fact you have one hour of tennis out of 6h match time.

We could watch tennis like we watch golf nowadays....Jump from one court to another and follow multiple matches at once. And maybe squeeze 5 master chef programs in finals when there 're no other match to show.

You better be fan of the players to spend so much time watching them towelling.

by legendkillar Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:58 am

Why change it?

If players of the past were able to cope, why can't the modern player?

Murray never abuses it and nor does Federer.

So I ask why change it?

by socal1976 Tue 31 Jan 2012, 8:27 am

I think the incessant toweling off is getting really odd, they should let them towel off between games or use a sweatband on your wrists. I would start by limiting the towel off process and I think maybe making the between point a hard and fast 25 seconds but actually enforcing it. Some ump is going to have to give one of the top stars a point penalty and the ATP are going to have to back him up before the rule has any meaning.

by prostaff85 Tue 31 Jan 2012, 8:37 am

socal1976 wrote:I think the incessant toweling off is getting really odd, they should let them towel off between games or use a sweatband on your wrists.

Fully agree with this socal. It's just ridiculous seeing some guys serving an ace and then commanding the ball boy/girl to hurry up with the towel, usually with an intimidating stare in the eye. I guess it's part of the act to look strong and in control.

by socal1976 Tue 31 Jan 2012, 10:03 am

I know pro staff I have played some long and physical points and what is wrong with just wiping your sweat on a sweat band, or god forbid on your shirt. And then they just chuck their sweaty towel at the ball kid its kind of rude. Towel off between games and in change overs.

by bogbrush Tue 31 Jan 2012, 10:55 am

I'd let them wipe their brow on the underwear of a movie star while she's still got it on if they wanted, just get the ball in play in 20 seconds.

I agree on the towel thing though, it's just pathetic ritual. I think some only do it to not be caught out standing like an arse while the other does his thing but that sort of thing just creates an escalation of time wasting.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 11:05 am

bogbrush wrote:I'd let them wipe their brow on the underwear of a movie star while she's still got it on if they wanted, just get the ball in play in 20 seconds.

If they could do it within 20 seconds, I'd enforce it!

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 12:09 pm

As a spectator I don;t understand why tennis fans woudl not be happy to see the impact fitness has on the players right from the start....instead of having to wait 5 hours to see the advantages.

I woudl like to see Nadal bing pushed in going for more winners. Anything wrong with that HE? Or do you think going for winners in not your hero's forte?

by **laverfan** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 1:48 pm

Tenez wrote:I woudl like to see Nadal bing pushed in going for more winners. Anything wrong with that HE? Or do you think going for winners in not your hero's forte?

If you see a clone on the other side of the net, who is slightly better, then how can a match be won.

TBs are a boon in this style of play. Perhaps all other slams should follow the USO and have a fifth set TB, to avoid health issues for players. Wink

PS: Technically, it is possible to play an endless TB as well.

by barrystar Tue 31 Jan 2012, 1:58 pm

laverfan wrote:
Tenez wrote:I woudl like to see Nadal bing pushed in going for more winners. Anything wrong with that HE? Or do you think going for winners in not your hero's forte?

If you see a clone on the other side of the net, who is slightly better, then how can a match be won.

Well it's difficult, but it's always difficult to beat someone who is better than you at tennis because he has a direct influence on how well you play.

The point is whether you as a fan want to see a contest in which the "lesser" player has to work out how to win the points before he exhausts himself or has the option instead to decide to tire the other guy out by keeping the ball in play relying on his superior fitness and catching his breath by taking longer than he is are allowed between the points.

by **laverfan** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:09 pm

In the AO final, both players broke the time rule, which is the premise of the OP?

My view is that a rule should be either enforced or removed, and not left as a 'rule' without any value. Also, enforcing it arbitrarily, based on the player's status should be frowned upon.

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:17 pm

I am not one to moan about rational laws of the game, if a rally has taken 15+ shots then this needs to be put in consideration when the next point should start. I am much more dismayed by the total lack of morals when it comes to on court coaching, and MTO's.

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:24 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:I am not one to moan about rational laws of the game, if a rally has taken 15+ shots then this needs to be put in consideration when the next point should start. I am much more dismayed by the total lack of morals when it comes to on court coaching, and MTO's.

I m afraid you do not understand the principle. There was long rallies in the past too but the key is that if you have a long rally and both are tired, then te question becomes who can win the next rally easily? or who can still rally longer with only 20s of recuperation. That's what we want to know. Not giving them means to line up 20+ rallies one after the other.

Taking more time than allowed is like doping! It's plain wrong!

by legendkillar Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:30 pm

Taking more time than allowed is like doping! It's plain wrong!

Now that is a massive overstatement if I have ever heard one!

Rules not being enforced and engaging in illegal activity are 2 completely different things.

Let's keep things within context of the subject.

I want stronger willed umpires who will enforce the rule or a system by where it is enforced, e.g a shot clock.

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:32 pm

Tenez wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:I am not one to moan about rational laws of the game, if a rally has taken 15+ shots then this needs to be put in consideration when the next point should start. I am much more dismayed by the total lack of morals when it comes to on court coaching, and MTO's.

I m afraid you do not understand the principle. There was long rallies in the past too but the key is that if you have a long rally and both are tired, then te question becomes who can win the next rally easily? or who can still rally longer with only 20s of recuperation. That's what we want to know. Not giving them means to line up 20+ rallies one after the other.

Taking more time than allowed is like doping! It's plain wrong!

I don't want to see a match decided because a player took a few more seconds over the limit than is required. Besides it is too late to be strict with the time rule now as the top 2 players make the ATP a lot of money.

by hawkeye Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:42 pm

Like it or not how often do players go over 20 seconds? More than 50% of the time? If its anywhere around that then what sort of rule is it?

According to the rules play should be continuus. Let the umpire be the judge of that. Any deliberate time wasting should of course not be allowed and subject to the usual sanctions.

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:50 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Taking more time than allowed is like doping! It's plain wrong!

Now that is a massive overstatement if I have ever heard one!

Rules not being enforced and engaging in illegal activity are 2 completely different things.

Let's keep things within context of the subject.

I want stronger willed umpires who will enforce the rule or a system by where it is enforced, e.g a shot clock.

It might be different for the tennis fan who does not understand what the reasons and the stakes are but both are about breaking rules and both are physioligically identical ...so I am afraid this is not an overstatement.

Taking longer between points would be like asking the peloton of the TDF to stop racing while the leader recovers his breath. No different. Actually it's worse in tenns cause we know recovering breath helps one style more than another. SO make it an understatement!

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:52 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:I don't want to see a match decided because a player took a few more seconds over the limit than is required. Besides it is too late to be strict with the time rule now as the top 2 players make the ATP a lot of money.

That's exactly what you have been seeing over the last 6 years I am afraid.

by barrystar Tue 31 Jan 2012, 3:01 pm

Tenez has a solid point albeit made with customary over-statement. If players are hurting themselves because they leave too much out there in the course of a match you need to think of a solution.

Allowing them longer to recuperate between points relieves the bit of them hurting the least, their cardiovascular system, and enables them to hammer their weary frames even more.

The short-term solution of a shorter season and/or less compulsory tournaments for top players reduces money generation for the wider tour and in particular lesser-ranked players who form the base of the food chain on which the whole edifice feeds.

Tenez's solution is to force the players who are destroying themselves physically to have to pace themselves across a match and have to go for more cheap points and think of something different. In my view that benefits everyone, including spectators in the long run as well as skillful play. If 4-5hr+ matches at slams become closer to the norm that there will be TV schedule recriminations as the novelty wears off - there will be, and as ever a duff decision will be made if the TV companies get involved.

Something needs to happen to speed up the game to stop this.

by **laverfan** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 4:51 pm

As HE indicates in this article - https://www.606v2.com/t22842-give-those-champions-a-chair - the players were exhausted and could not stand during the award ceremony.

"That's nice be there fighting, trying to go to the limit, bring your body to the limit of his chances," Nadal said. "Something I really enjoy, and I always enjoy suffering, no? So when you are fit, with passion for the game, when you are ready to compete, you are able to suffer and enjoy suffering. So today I had this feeling, and is a really good one. I suffered during the match, but I enjoyed all the troubles that I had during all the match. I tried to be there, to find solutions all the time. I played a lot with my heart. I played a lot with my mind, and is something that is nice to be around and not just play tennis."

Is something being lost in translation here? Erm

The Tennis season is longer than the four slams (April-September) and there are complaints about the length of the season.

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/ticker.aspx?articleid=16142&zoneid=6

by Tenez Tue 31 Jan 2012, 5:07 pm

laverfan wrote:Is something being lost in translation here?

Yes! S&M!

by **laverfan** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 5:14 pm

Tenez wrote:
laverfan wrote:Is something being lost in translation here?

Yes! S&M!

Poor Marquis de Sade should have been alive to watch the AO 2012 final. He could have added a few chapters to his epic(s). Laugh

by hawkeye Tue 31 Jan 2012, 6:58 pm

laverfan wrote:As HE indicates in this article - https://www.606v2.com/t22842-give-those-champions-a-chair - the players were exhausted and could not stand during the award ceremony.

"That's nice be there fighting, trying to go to the limit, bring your body to the limit of his chances," Nadal said. "Something I really enjoy, and I always enjoy suffering, no? So when you are fit, with passion for the game, when you are ready to compete, you are able to suffer and enjoy suffering. So today I had this feeling, and is a really good one. I suffered during the match, but I enjoyed all the troubles that I had during all the match. I tried to be there, to find solutions all the time. I played a lot with my heart. I played a lot with my mind, and is something that is nice to be around and not just play tennis."

Is something being lost in translation here?

The Tennis season is longer than the four slams (April-September) and there are complaints about the length of the season.

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/ticker.aspx?articleid=16142&zoneid=6

There is some discussion about Nadal's quote here

https://www.606v2.com/t22914-just-what-the-doctor-ordered-for-nadal

I think I may understand what he means.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:01 pm

Going back to the original topic title, I asked my wife if 20 seconds was too short. She said "In your case, it's about all I can stand".

by amritia3ee Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:12 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Going back to the original topic title, I asked my wife if 20 seconds was too short. She said "In your case, it's about all I can stand".

by bogbrush Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:33 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Going back to the original topic title, I asked my wife if 20 seconds was too short. She said "In your case, it's about all I can stand".

20 seconds?

You spoil her.

by Henman Bill Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:07 pm

Does that include the time it takes to eat the pizza?

by hawkeye Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:29 pm

JuliusHMarx

Ha ha! But should you really be telling us this...

by **laverfan** Wed 01 Feb 2012, 12:50 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Going back to the original topic title, I asked my wife if 20 seconds was too short. She said "In your case, it's about all I can stand".

Pretty sure there is a Silver or a Golden Jubilee involved in JHM's past 'couple' (pun intended) of weeks. Laugh

by Sponsored content

Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?

Re: Is 20 Seconds Too Short?