U20 Champions

Ok so the main event is being covered quite a bit but the U20's have totally gone under the radar.

I would imagine England are clear favourites for this tournament given the usual proffesional bulk most the youngsters have at that level and exposure to top flight rugby.

Who do you think will win? How do you rate your own Countries chances? And are there any standout players you are looking forward to seeing?

For Wales its going to be interesting.

Key Players for Wales U20:-

Kirby Myhill (Scarlets) Hooker - He will no doubt be a key figure in the pack. Really impressed me in the few outings for the Scarlets. At 16 st 9 lb he's quite a heavy so will add some much needed weight to the pack.

Will Griff John (Blues) Prop - A Senior Prop at this level and needs to play well come scrum time. At 18st 10lb he is the biggest of the Props Wales can pick from.

Jordan Williams (Scarlets) Fly Half - He has his work cut out if he is going to get into the Welsh 10 seat this tournament. Sam Davies, Rhys Patchell and Lewis Williams all are capable debuties. That said for me this kid really has great feet and pacey to boot. Small but explosive. May have some defensive frailities due to his size but gifted none the less.

Tom Prydie (Ospreys) Full Back - Good Feet and very quick. An obvious choice given he is a capped Welsh International.

Iolo Evans (Scarlets) Wing - The 15st Winger will be dangerous. Expecting him to have a good try scoring campaign.

Cory Allen (Blues) Centre - I hope they start him. Been really impressed with him.


My real issue is at Lineout time and in the Back Row. We are not the biggest team in the boilerhouse and the backrow looks a little light weight as well. Its the area that teams tend to get a lot of change out of us. We need to develop youngster in preparation for this level.

Overall Wales to finish 3rd I reckon.

Also I am pleased the WRU are hosting these games in North Wales. I hope 10,000+ turn up and really make it a showcase up there.

One of the big reasons given for no Northern region is the lack of interest. I think it's important that these sort of games are well supported up there to show there in an interest.

On to the competition. Well George Ford is one of the big names of course. He was the stand out player last year at 18 and will hopefully go on to get plenty of premiership experience next year as back up for Flood.

Another name is Matt Kvesic. I've heard he was originally an 8 so I'd like him to move back there. Getting a decent amount of game time with Worcester this year.

Watch out for Jonny Gray, Richie's wee bro - still only 17, but playing comfortably at this level already. In the backs, we've already seen a bit of Harry Leonard at Embra, and Sam Hidalgo-Clyne with the 7s team, but watch out too for former Scotland and Bok hooker John Allan's nephew, Tomasso - expecting big things from the western province lad

I wonder if England really are physcially bigger than their opponents? They have a lot of 18 year olds in the tight 5, and the backs are generally of the pacey and slight type.

HammerofThunor wrote:One of the big reasons given for no Northern region is the lack of interest. I think it's important that these sort of games are well supported up there to show there in an interest.

On to the competition. Well George Ford is one of the big names of course. He was the stand out player last year at 18 and will hopefully go on to get plenty of premiership experience next year as back up for Flood.

Another name is Matt Kvesic. I've heard he was originally an 8 so I'd like him to move back there. Getting a decent amount of game time with Worcester this year.

That is complete nonsense and a insult to all the people that work hard against all the odds to make rugby a success in North Wales.
I doubt if the WRU want it to be a success up here due to the limited advertisement bordering on the nonexistent.
I only found out about it by chatting with Phil Steele at PYS

BTW Thunor I know it's not something you have said you are just highlighting the excuses used,

I didn't think you could play for the U20 when you were U18. I remember something about Ford being able to play for Tigers at 16/17 but not the U20. Might be mistaken.

Cymro, I've no idea if it's bull or not (but will bow to your experience as you actually live there ). But you guys who want the region need to support events like this (I know you do). Any time there's some sort of game in the North and it doesn't have a great attendance it gets used as an excuse (even if the game would have got similar attendance in the South).

James O'Connor and Tom Prydie both played full international rugby at 17 so I would assume under-20 would be OK. I think I remember hearing you need clearance from a doctor or something if under 18. Also you can't commit yourself to a particular nation until you are 18. Maybe if Ford was 16 he wouldn't be allowed?

But in the case of J Gray as a second row I would have thought that would be more unusual, it usually seems to be outside backs who are promoted young.

Oops, no I'm completely wrong, they were both 18. Just ignore me.

If this website is anything to go by http://www.supersport.com/rugby/international/individualrecords

then the last 17 year old was 'Elisi Vunipola who played for Tonga vs Fiji in 1990. Maybe the rules have changed since then.

HammerofThunor wrote:I didn't think you could play for the U20 when you were U18. I remember something about Ford being able to play for Tigers at 16/17 but not the U20. Might be mistaken.

Thunor, not sure about that particular instance, but J Gray's DOB is listed as 14 March 1994 on the SRU website - 17 for another month or so

DaveM wrote:I wonder if England really are physcially bigger than their opponents? They have a lot of 18 year olds in the tight 5, and the backs are generally of the pacey and slight type.

So, England are already looking ahead, as those players will still be available next season. England have a lot of big guys in their packs, but it also probably has something to do with having a lot of juniors take part in the sport up and down the country.

Players like Thomas Young and Hamilton from the Blues are handy back row forwards and still eligible but have been left out. A lot of exceptional players have been left out and as I have said elsewhere our '2nd team' should have had priority. So, I will be suprised if we don't finish 5th.

Imagine England emabressment when they discover they handed the wrong team sheet in to the 6 nations organisers

Spurling the Sarries hooker is a real menace ball in hand with quite a bit of pace, Tom Price the Tigers second row is highly thought of and has been part of an exchange programme with Clermont, Nutley is the next Moody and the backs have bags of pace in the likes of Ransom, Yarde, Walker and Elliot.

Full Squad for England (in case you're interested);

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)*
Nick Auterac (Saracens)
Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
Scott Spurling (Saracens)
Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby)*
Sam Twomey (Harlequins)*
George Merrick (Harlequins)
Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
Ben Nutley (Northampton Saints)
Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)*
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Backs
Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)*
Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)*
Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby)*
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)*
Jamie Elliott (Northampton Saints)*
Mark Jennings (Sale Sharks)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)*
Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
Will Addison (Sale Sharks)
Ben Ransom (Saracens)*
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

* Capped by England at U20 level last season

I believe that the English prem clubs take priority over the U-20's (providing that the players actually get gametime), so, depending on injuries, we may not see Spencer, Ford or Kvesic (perhaps others) in the England shirt.

Tom Heathcote was drafted in to replace Henry Slade (last year's U-18 flyhalf who is back in training now) and should get a few runouts.

Jack Nowell's season is over after knee ligament damage in Chief's Amlin win over Prato (a couple of days after the 6N squad was announced) - I haven't heard of a squad replacement, but he would have been doing very well to displace Ben Ransom at full-back, so I guess they'll be looking at a utility back on the bench, anyway.

The Scotland-England game is being streamed live on the RFU website on Friday night, not sure if it's being covered elsewhere.

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/January/NewsArticles/310112_20s_live_stream.aspx

England side is up:

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)
14) Marland Yarde (London Irish)
13) Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
12) Ryan Mills (Gloucester)
11) Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
10) George Ford (C) (Leicester Tigers)
9) Dan Robson (Gloucester)

1) Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
2) Koree Britton (Gloucester)
3) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4) Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
5) George Merrick (Harlequins)
6) Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
7) Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
8) Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Replacements:

16) Scott Spurling (Saracens)
17) Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18) Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
19) Elliot Stooke (Gloucester)
20) Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
21) Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
22) Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
23) Anthony Watson (London Irish)

Interesting to see the Walkers (no relation I believe) starting, and Tony Watson making it to the bench.

It's a strong side on paper, with some excellent players missing e.g. Sisi, Barrow, Elliot, Vunipola, Spencer, Nutley, Addison, Hill.

I wonder if Vunipola is with Wasps as they've got a lot on injuries in the back row haven't they? Really looking forward to it on Friday.

Dan Robson's from Stoke so I'd like him to do well (I didn't even know there were two codes of rugby until I was 18 and went to uni

It's a strong side on paper, with some excellent players missing e.g. Sisi, Barrow, Elliot, Vunipola, Spencer, Nutley, Addison, Hill

I'm guessing those players are covering call ups from the Saxons or EPS at their clubs. Elliot is at Saints where Foden and Ashton are with England, Vunipola is part of a decimated Wasps team, Sisi is at LI I think they have a few injuries, Spencer is starting for the Saxons, Nutley is covering for the injured Wood and called up Downson.

Nice to see George Ford given the captains arm band as well. He really is turning into a little midfield general.

HammerofThunor wrote:I wonder if Vunipola is with Wasps as they've got a lot on injuries in the back row haven't they? Really looking forward to it on Friday.

Dan Robson's from Stoke so I'd like him to do well (I didn't even know there were two codes of rugby until I was 18 and went to uni

I'm from Stoke as well Hammer, i wasn't aware there was even one code of Rugby until i left the place. The whole North west Midlands area is really a black whole when it comes to Rugby, we've tended to focus on pub sports historically.

Is it likely for England to lose a few players during the tournament due to Premiership club requirements as has happened in previous years?

Morgannwg wrote:Is it likely for England to lose a few players during the tournament due to Premiership club requirements as has happened in previous years?

They already have by the looks of it. Im suprissed Tigers have made Ford available tbh, with 36 on the naughty step and playing for the Saxons plus Flood injured they are pretty short of options at 10

Hopefully you also lose Ksevic by your third game.

They already have by the looks of it. Im suprissed Tigers have made Ford available tbh, with 36 on the naughty step and playing for the Saxons plus Flood injured they are pretty short of options at 10.

Interesting that Cockers has come out and said that the under 20 6N is takes precedent over the LV Cup games and so Ford is unavailable. Flood is in line to start from the bench on Saturday with Staunton at 10 otherwise Rory Lynn would have been called up from the academy, he did a good job against England under 18s last Sunday. Then again Sam Harrison was originally a 10 and apparently played very well against Nottingham from there in pre season.

I was wondering who Elliott Stooke was so I did a quick search and came across this on the Shedweb:

Can someone keep an eye on Elliot Stooke. He's a Stow on Wold boy. 6'8" and 18 stone at the moment, and not yet 18. Long time since we've had a guy of that size come through our ranks.

http://www.gloucesterrugby.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024796

Islingtonv2 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I wonder if Vunipola is with Wasps as they've got a lot on injuries in the back row haven't they? Really looking forward to it on Friday.

Dan Robson's from Stoke so I'd like him to do well (I didn't even know there were two codes of rugby until I was 18 and went to uni

I'm from Stoke as well Hammer, i wasn't aware there was even one code of Rugby until i left the place. The whole North west Midlands area is really a black whole when it comes to Rugby, we've tended to focus on pub sports historically.

In my full school life we had one games less on rugby, which involved passing the ball from side to side. It was football, football and football, with a bit of I cricket and athletics thrown in. I found out recently the Stoke Rugby Club pitch is a field just outside the village I grew up in.

Keiron Brookes is from Stoke as well apparantly. We're taking over.

Can someone keep an eye on Elliot Stooke. He's a Stow on Wold boy. 6'8" and 18 stone at the moment, and not yet 18. Long time since we've had a guy of that size come through our ranks.

Yikes! Is he Simon Shaw's love child?

England's backs look too big and quick. Grey Jr looks, unsurprisingly, massive. But we're too big at this level I think.

I suspect the opposite may be true tomorrow.

4 tries to England and a Marland Yarde hattrick after 20 mins.

Hood83 wrote:England's backs look too big and quick. Grey Jr looks, unsurprisingly, massive. But we're too big at this level I think.

I suspect the opposite may be true tomorrow.

It's not just about size though is it? England's running lines and support play has been superb as has been the handling and passing. It really frustrates me when people say it's all down to size. Kyle Sinklers passing has been brilliant for a prop forward (we'll be talking about him in the same breath as his club mate Joe Marler soon, I guarentee it) and the ball went through both of the SR's hands for one of the tries.

He's generally done well in the scrum as well. Quins really need a decent Tighthead.

Is this generally always the case, England u20's winning (i appreciate there have been 2 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 French i think) the real problem comes with these guys getting regular 1st team rugby in the jeff - it's scary how good England could be if they decided to lose the overseas players and focus on young English players - long may they keep the journeymen

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens) 6 games
14) Marland Yarde (London Irish) 5 games
13) Elliot Daly (London Wasps) 18 games
12) Ryan Mills (Gloucester)
11) Charlie Walker (Harlequins) 2 games
10) George Ford (C) (Leicester Tigers) 13 games
9) Dan Robson (Gloucester)

1) Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
2) Koree Britton (Gloucester)
3) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) 2 games
4) Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
5) George Merrick (Harlequins)
6) Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 31 games
7) Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
8) Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Replacements:

16) Scott Spurling (Saracens)
17) Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18) Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
19) Elliot Stooke (Gloucester)
20) Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
21) Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
22) Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
23) Anthony Watson (London Irish)

Haven't bother looking them all up (not always easy). I'd be curious to see the equivalent for the Welsh and Irish sides.

WelshinEdinburgh wrote:Is this generally always the case, England u20's winning (i appreciate there have been 2 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 French i think) the real problem comes with these guys getting regular 1st team rugby in the jeff - it's scary how good England could be if they decided to lose the overseas players and focus on young English players - long may they keep the journeymen

You say that, but practically every one of the England players has got Jeff experience, in some cases like Heathcote and Ford, pretty significant experience. Indeed, (without trying to sound arrogant) you might consider the team England put out a bit ‘weakened’. It was missing a number of players due to League, LV commitments or injuries; Billy Vunipola (of the Wicktenshire Vunipolas), Ben Nutley, Ben Spencer, Will Addison, Jack Nowell, Jamie Elliott, Dominic Barrow and Sam hill.

Hammer I would be surprised if the Irish had 10 games between them.

Ireland just couldn't finish off the game

Wales were truly woeful - if they don't improve they are going to take a hammering or two

This will be the best England u20 side to date, and we've never had anything like the strength in depth of the current cohort. Yet two common myths are repeated:

- English young players don't get enough gametime for their clubs
- England only win at age group level because they are bigger than their opponents.

The handling and running lines were top class tonight, in conditions where their hands must have been on the verge of falling off. England have a generation of great rugby players coming through. The side that played tonight isn't even the best side England could have put out.

Lots of excellent performances. As I said in the England team for 2015 thread, Yarde will soon be a regular for the seniors.

Oops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZbA7yN7S9w

Wrong thread George. This is about the U20. Remove it immediately. Immediately I say!

Well done in the A game. Didn't see it but you really must have battered us.

DaveM wrote:This will be the best England u20 side to date, and we've never had anything like the strength in depth of the current cohort. Yet two common myths are repeated:

- English young players don't get enough gametime for their clubs
- England only win at age group level because they are bigger than their opponents.

There is no doubt in rugby that size matters - a good big un' beats a good little un'. At junior level England have far more players who are both good enough AND big enough to have played senior rugby compared to the other nations. Nations like Ireland have to pick U20 forwards far more on their size than their talent because they have a fraction of the depth. Even at senior level Ireland struggle to find enough Props and Locks but have plenty of (smaller) backrows to pick from.

Cumbrian wrote:

Hood83 wrote:England's backs look too big and quick. Grey Jr looks, unsurprisingly, massive. But we're too big at this level I think.

I suspect the opposite may be true tomorrow.

It's not just about size though is it? England's running lines and support play has been superb as has been the handling and passing. It really frustrates me when people say it's all down to size. Kyle Sinklers passing has been brilliant for a prop forward (we'll be talking about him in the same breath as his club mate Joe Marler soon, I guarentee it) and the ball went through both of the SR's hands for one of the tries.

Maybe it was a little unfair of me to suggest that was the only reason we were winning, and Sinckler's passing was amazing (looks like he could use a bit of conditioning on his gut though!). But i do think it's a serious advantage. I actually thought when it came to body positions while rucking and mauling the Scots looked technically far better. Which was distressing but not surprising, sadly.

You're right, our backs did look sharp and the handling was good. Won't take long for the Prem to drill that out of them. Daly and Ford in particular look classy and Yarde looks a good player.

Oh and i don't think this is the best England U20s i've seen. I think that was the one with a backrow of Clark, Lawes and Fearns. Backs perhaps weren't as good but the pack was HUGE and very good.

This side?

England U20: Tom Homer (London Irish); George Lowe (Harlequins), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby); Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), James Clark (London Irish), Bob Baker (London Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt), Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks). Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens) for J Clark 33, Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) for Baker 56, Jack Cobden (Leicester Tigers) for Sharples 59. Not used: Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby), Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons).

The 2009 side was good, this one is better.

I was pleased with how England rucked, repeatedly driving Scotland off the ball. This is a JWC winning squad.

Yeah that's the one, thought it had a better pack. However if all those who went back to their Prem teams this year played i'd think it's close.

Meh. Didn't think our rucking was great. I think we'll come up short again but possibly in the final against the ABs again. I have no idea how strong the Saffa and Oz teams are this year though.

I think this year's back is better. Three years on Baker is a bit part player and Moon has barely started a game (though he's a regular replacement). I bet this isn't the case with the current props. The same goes for the hooker. Yes Lawes and Fearns were and are exceptional players, but I think Kvesic and Price are too. And we have way more strength in depth in the backs now.

I don't know how you score 59 points without rucking well. We could have beaten NZ last year, and we will this year.

DaveM wrote:I think this year's back is better. Three years on Baker is a bit part player and Moon has barely started a game (though he's a regular replacement). I bet this isn't the case with the current props. The same goes for the hooker. Yes Lawes and Fearns were and are exceptional players, but I think Kvesic and Price are too. And we have way more strength in depth in the backs now.

I don't know how you score 59 points without rucking well. We could have beaten NZ last year, and we will this year.

Nor do i, but we did IMO. Thought the Scots were very poor though. Which player was Price again? Yeah Kvesic could be very handy. Looks a little short so i'm hoping he turns into more of a groundhog 7 than an 6 or 8 as he's often been played as.

Which player was Price again?

Second row, number 4. Leicester Tigers lock who has been on an exchange programme at Clermont for a few months.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Which player was Price again?

Second row, number 4. Leicester Tigers lock who has been on an exchange programme at Clermont for a few months.

How do you rate him Sam? Some Tigers fans I've talked to have said that they are excited about him, whilst others have said that he is a useless lanky beanpole!

Highlights of the Scotland vs. England game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_7OZLk8bw

Hood83 wrote:

DaveM wrote:I think this year's back is better. Three years on Baker is a bit part player and Moon has barely started a game (though he's a regular replacement). I bet this isn't the case with the current props. The same goes for the hooker. Yes Lawes and Fearns were and are exceptional players, but I think Kvesic and Price are too. And we have way more strength in depth in the backs now.

I don't know how you score 59 points without rucking well. We could have beaten NZ last year, and we will this year.

Nor do i, but we did IMO. Thought the Scots were very poor though. Which player was Price again? Yeah Kvesic could be very handy. Looks a little short so i'm hoping he turns into more of a groundhog 7 than an 6 or 8 as he's often been played as.

Kvesic is already one of the ones they are seriously trying to groom for the senior side. Rowntree mentioned his name alongside Saull as the players they want to be the long term solution to Englands 7 problem.

How do you rate him Sam? Some Tigers fans I've talked to have said that they are excited about him, whilst others have said that he is a useless lanky beanpole!

Don't really know to be honest. He's not been around this season as he's been on said exchange to Clermont. He's only 18 so there's plenty of time for him to develop and he wasn't included in the A Team in previous seasons (being rather too young). The management seem to rate him highly as he was taken with the first team for pre season rather than staying with the academy so Cockerill and Blaze have obviously seen something they like, likewise the England management as they've promoted him a year early to the under 20s.

I was impressed with Sam Hill, up against Barkley and Banahan. He's got got physcial presence for an 18 year old, can tackle, take the ball up and looks to have a lovely pass on him. I don't know if he's got a kicking game, but he's looks to offer something different from the seond FH route we saw with Mills/Heathcote at the weekend.

The Scotland under-20 team to play Wales under-20 on Friday 10 February at Parc Eirias is as follows:

15 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Scotland 7s / Heriot’s)

14 Jamie Farndale (Edinburgh Rugby / Edinburgh Accies)
13 Robbie Fergusson (Ayr)
12 Tommaso Allan (Western Province)
11 Michael Crawley (Boroughmuir)

10 Harry Leonard (Edinburgh Rugby) (captain)
9 Scott Steele (Leicester Tigers)

1 Jamie Bhatti (Stirling County)
2 George Turner (Edinburgh Rugby / Stewart’s Melville)
3 Alex Allan (Loughborough Students)
4 Adam Sinclair (Stirling County
5 Jonny Gray (Hamilton)
6 Mitch Eadie (Bristol Rugby)
7 Will Bordill (Sale Sharks)
8 Jamie Swanson (Boroughmuir)

16 Russell Anderson (Gala)
17 Gavin Robertson (Dundee HSFP)
18 Andrew Redmayne (Dundee HSFP)
19 Callum Reid (Edinburgh Accies)
20 Struan Cessford (Heriot’s)
21 Finn Russell (Falkirk)
22 Matthew Torrance (Ospreys)
23 Tom Steven (Glasgow Hawks)

3 changes from the side that lost heavily to England - Robbie Ferguson is fit again to take up his position in the centres, so Michael Crawley moves out to the wing, with Tom Steven dropping to the bench. Robin Hislop is required by Edinburgh so James Bhatti comes in to the front row, and George Turner replaces the injured Fergus Scott (Matt Scott's wee bro). A few newbies on the bench for their first experience, including Matthew Torrance from the O's (another Shingler?! )