U20 Champions

First topic message reminder :

Ok so the main event is being covered quite a bit but the U20's have totally gone under the radar.

I would imagine England are clear favourites for this tournament given the usual proffesional bulk most the youngsters have at that level and exposure to top flight rugby.

Who do you think will win? How do you rate your own Countries chances? And are there any standout players you are looking forward to seeing?

For Wales its going to be interesting.

Key Players for Wales U20:-

Kirby Myhill (Scarlets) Hooker - He will no doubt be a key figure in the pack. Really impressed me in the few outings for the Scarlets. At 16 st 9 lb he's quite a heavy so will add some much needed weight to the pack.

Will Griff John (Blues) Prop - A Senior Prop at this level and needs to play well come scrum time. At 18st 10lb he is the biggest of the Props Wales can pick from.

Jordan Williams (Scarlets) Fly Half - He has his work cut out if he is going to get into the Welsh 10 seat this tournament. Sam Davies, Rhys Patchell and Lewis Williams all are capable debuties. That said for me this kid really has great feet and pacey to boot. Small but explosive. May have some defensive frailities due to his size but gifted none the less.

Tom Prydie (Ospreys) Full Back - Good Feet and very quick. An obvious choice given he is a capped Welsh International.

Iolo Evans (Scarlets) Wing - The 15st Winger will be dangerous. Expecting him to have a good try scoring campaign.

Cory Allen (Blues) Centre - I hope they start him. Been really impressed with him.


My real issue is at Lineout time and in the Back Row. We are not the biggest team in the boilerhouse and the backrow looks a little light weight as well. Its the area that teams tend to get a lot of change out of us. We need to develop youngster in preparation for this level.

Overall Wales to finish 3rd I reckon.

i looked at england u20 v scotland game and the pace we played with. ford look special, why cant we play like that at senior level.

Because most teams are better than Scotland U20

HammerofThunor wrote:Because most teams are better than Scotland U20

You lie!

Id put the saxons and the senior side a little behind them based on the weekends play

Hood83 wrote:
Nor do i, but we did IMO. Thought the Scots were very poor though. Which player was Price again? Yeah Kvesic could be very handy. Looks a little short so i'm hoping he turns into more of a groundhog 7 than an 6 or 8 as he's often been played as.

Ford was happy with the ball he got.

Kvesic is 6'1, which seems plenty tall enough for a player who will almost certainly end up at 7.

I was led to this from another rugby site:

http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/blues_bassett_gets_england_u20_call_up_1_3495443

It's from the Bedford website because their winger Josh Bassett has been added to the squad.

England squad:

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Alec Hepburn (London Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Nathan Morris (London Wasps), Scott Spurling (Saracens)

George Merrick (Harlequins), Tom Price (Leicester Tigers), Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie), Elliot Stooke (Gloucester Rugby)

Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie), Will Skuse (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins),

Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby), Alex Day (Northampton Saints), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Tommy Bell (Sale Sharks)

Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs),

Charlie Walker (Harlequins), Josh Bassett (Bedford Blues), Jack Arnott (Exeter Chiefs).

Ben Ransom (Saracens), Anthony Watson (London Irish)

Head Coach: Rob Hunter. Assistant: Nick Walshe.

If it's true, we'll be missing:

George Ford
Matt Kvesic
Ryan Mills
Tom Heathcote
Elliott Daly
Marland Yarde
Koree Britton

and running low on centres and backrowers.

Three FH's got onto the pitch last week, and all are missing. We may play a completely different backline from last week, say:

Spencer, Slade, Arnott, Hill, Bell (edited in to get 7 new starters), Bassett, Watson.

However, I'd start Walker at 13, with Bell on the bench covering FH. Watson could start at 13 too, with Bell or Ransom at FB.

Dom Barrow maybe to get a start in the second row or at 6, and Skuse also to get a chance in the backrow.

Not as strong as last week, but still some exciting players.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tommy Bell get a run out in the centres. He's been playing well for Leeds... albeit from fullback.

Arnott is a speedster, and Hill a skilful big unit, but haven't seen much of Slade recently

6 nations is generally used as a warm up for the JWC since it's every year. Probably better for those players getting time for their clubs rather U20 (higher level). Also it's only Italy

The England Team:

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)
14) Anthony Watson (London Irish)
13) Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
12) Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
11) Josh Bassett (Bedford Blues)
10) Tommy Bell (Leeds Carnegie)
9) Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)

1) Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
2) Scott Spurling (Saracens)
3) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4) Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
5) George Merrick (Harlequins)
6) Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
7) Chris Walker (C) (Leeds Carnegie)
8) Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Replacements:
16) Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
17) Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18) Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
19) Elliot Stooke (Gloucester Rugby)
20) Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
21) Ben Spencer (Saracens)
22) Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
23) Jack Arnott (Exeter Chiefs)

It's good to see 4 players from Championship clubs in the mix, as well as those DR'd. Didn't realise Henry Slade ( /Albion ) was fit again, thought he was still rehabbing.

Probably the strongest front row, and a decent five behind them to counter the traditional Italian strengths, with a mixed up set of quick backs to see what they can do.

Liking Sam Hill ( /Pirates ) the more I see of him.

Im assuming that the clubs have asked for some players back as its actually a proper competition being played this week.
Although Tigers could survive without Ford now Flood has been released.

10 is a bit tricky, as I don't think Bell has really played there this season, and I'm not sure Slade has played a competitive game since his early season injury. Still the centre partnership is exciting, and Tony Watson is the right up there with Ford as the most exciting English age-group player in years.

Good to see Spurling and Barrow making what I think are their first starts. Skuse is very well regarded.

To the list of missing players above I'd add Will Addison, who can play wing, FB and both centre positions, Nowell (who I think was quite close to breaking through at Exeter pre-injury) who is a FB, and David Sisi who is an 8 who has recently been playing 7. All are injured I think, and all are excellent prospects.

Overall this isde is the result of the clubs pulling their players back, but I don't think the RFU will be too gutted as it gives the management the chance to look at some different players (for instance, I've nevver heard of Bassett). As pointed out above, winning the 6 Nations is great, but the real target is the first JWC win.

Seabiscuit, do you think it'll be Flood and Ford for Tigers or will Stuanton be involved. If they have asked for Ford back you'd think they'd be playing him

Anthony Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfKjJcs3-I

HammerofThunor wrote:Seabiscuit, do you think it'll be Flood and Ford for Tigers or will Stuanton be involved. If they have asked for Ford back you'd think they'd be playing him

Yeah youd assume wouldnt you? I only looked at the players withdrawn and assumed they been recalled to their clubs, but it is odd that Tigers call him back when they actually have two fit fly halves again.
It would be a bit ridiculous if Flood didnt play. I dont think England can demand players are played, just rested?

Cumbrian wrote:Anthony Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfKjJcs3-I

You've got to love his change of direction, immense

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Anthony Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfKjJcs3-I

You've got to love his change of direction, immense

Hes got nothing on this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSNuBP5QOYw&feature=related

PSW, Sign him up quick, reckon he could have a big future for NZ

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:PSW, Sign him up quick, reckon he could have a big future for NZ

He may be more suited for a role in management.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:The England Team:

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)
14) Anthony Watson (London Irish)
13) Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
12) Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
11) Josh Bassett (Bedford Blues)
10) Tommy Bell (Leeds Carnegie)
9) Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)

1) Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
2) Scott Spurling (Saracens)
3) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4) Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
5) George Merrick (Harlequins)
6) Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
7) Chris Walker (C) (Leeds Carnegie)
8) Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Replacements:
16) Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
17) Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18) Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
19) Elliot Stooke (Gloucester Rugby)
20) Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
21) Ben Spencer (Saracens)
22) Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
23) Jack Arnott (Exeter Chiefs)

It's good to see 4 players from Championship clubs in the mix, as well as those DR'd. Didn't realise Henry Slade ( /Albion ) was fit again, thought he was still rehabbing.

Probably the strongest front row, and a decent five behind them to counter the traditional Italian strengths, with a mixed up set of quick backs to see what they can do.

Liking Sam Hill ( /Pirates ) the more I see of him.

I don't understand. Why is Ben Spencer on the bench? Surely he should either be back at his club or starting. He is too good not to.

Seabiscuit, do you think it'll be Flood and Ford for Tigers or will Stuanton be involved. If they have asked for Ford back you'd think they'd be playing him.

Staunton was woeful against the Falcons and it seems Ford will be the back up to Flood when Flood makes it back into the England team so he's getting some game time now to acclimatise. Flood won't play a full 80 I'd expect Ford on after 55/60 mins. Hopefully Harrison will get the full 80 as we all want to see the Harrison/Ford combo.

Yep seems reasonable.

Maybe we can sign DP as Stauntions replacement next year

Ben Spencer certainly is a decent player, but I don't think it's wrong for him to have to earn the shirt from within the squad.

I think I'm right in thinking that he hasn't played age-grade before, whereas many of the squad have come through U-16's and U-18's together. He's missed some of the build-up being with the Saxons and, whilst he'll know the Sarries players and the Exeter lads from their Academy, he could probably do with a bit of time to gel with his new team-mates.

Italy won't be the sternest test that the U-20's face this campaign, and the team has something of an experimental look to it, albeit probably due to club call-ups.

Presumably Sarries injury woes at scrum-half have eased, as they have the right to pull rank over the U-20's.

Dubbelyew L Overate it shouldn't matter if he hasn't played age grade before. You play your best players.

Why should a player be punished for playing a higher standard than U20s?

If he can hold his own against the starting France scrum half,Yachvili he is better than most.

I find it very flawed when people believe the U20s are higher standard than the AP,HC and Saxons.

beshocked, U20 6 nations isn't about playing you best players. Is there still enforced rotation at the JWC? Spencer has much much more experience at the top domestic level than Robson. But he still needs to 'bond' with the team as he's almost certainly going to the JWC in the summer. So Robson gets another start to build his experience and Spencer gets a 20/30 mins playing in the team. I don't think U20 takes priority and the clubs have to give permission (althouugh not sure about that) so Saracens are happy about it.

Strikes me he sounds like a "big game" player, like Tuilagi or North who through various factors get fastracked through but step up to the plate even when playing above their grade.
Some players flourish when presented with big challenges ( Tuilagi played his first senior club game as a schoolkid against South Africas test tour team and was far from out of place), others shrink back.
If Spencer can prove himself in the Jeff and HC hes certainly good neough to take on the joke that is age grade rugby.

Theres all kinds of reasons he might not be starting this game though, the selection policies are hard to fathom from the outside. As you say it may be that he just hasnt had the training time with the other guys. And there is still a case for England following their development system and sticking to their long term players, its kind of the point of the fully intergrated EPS system. Its shouldnt preclude someone like Spencer jumping in just because he wasnt spotted sooner though. Ben Morgans got straight in the senior side without playing for any of them.

beshocked wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate it shouldn't matter if he hasn't played age grade before. You play your best players.

Why should a player be punished for playing a higher standard than U20s?

If he can hold his own against the starting France scrum half,Yachvili he is better than most.

I find it very flawed when people believe the U20s are higher standard than the AP,HC and Saxons.

I don't think they do.

I don't think he is 'being punished' and I doubt the player himself would see it like that either. At the end of the day the U20's is a developmental team, every player selected needs a chance to get a game. Spencer has consitently shown that he is very capable with his club, Robson hasn't really had that chance yet. If they only play guys who they know can perform, it becomes less about development and more about becoming a mini national team.

beshocked, U20 6 nations isn't about playing you best players. Is there still enforced rotation at the JWC?

I think every player has to start a game.

With the Spencer thing I think it's more likely they want to pair him with Slade (same academy) and then pair Robson with Bell who have played age grade together (unless I've mis-remembered). I am a bit suprised with Spencer being on the bench as that's the only reason other than a lack of time with the squad I can think of for him not being there. Then again maybe the under 20 coaches are planning for life without him in the summer because they expect him to be called up to the summer tour with the first team.

I do understand your points but as it is development why pick him at all?

My point is why pick Spencer on the bench? Why not give another scrum half game time?

He won't be needed against Italian U20s so why not give him a break?

Lancaster has wanted an excuse to have him around the England camp more and have a closer look at him off the bench with a view to a possible first team call up? I'd presume Lancaster will learn more from a sub appearence where Spencer is forced to adapt as opposed to him slotting straight back into the Sarries team that is very comfortable for him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lancaster has wanted an excuse to have him around the England camp more and have a closer look at him off the bench with a view to a possible first team call up? I'd presume Lancaster will learn more from a sub appearence where Spencer is forced to adapt as opposed to him slotting straight back into the Sarries team that is very comfortable for him.

Well if he wanted to see how hed get on with England wouldnt he be better playing him at Sarries, given the current England midfield?

Not if they're currently with England.

HammerofThunor wrote:Not if they're currently with England.

yes so that nullifies the point I was responding to regarding the possible reason for not sending him back to Sarries....i was pointing out the logical hole in the argument

DaveM wrote:

Hood83 wrote:
Nor do i, but we did IMO. Thought the Scots were very poor though. Which player was Price again? Yeah Kvesic could be very handy. Looks a little short so i'm hoping he turns into more of a groundhog 7 than an 6 or 8 as he's often been played as.

Ford was happy with the ball he got.

Kvesic is 6'1, which seems plenty tall enough for a player who will almost certainly end up at 7.

That's pretty much my point on Kvesic. He's being played at 6 and 8 for Worcester right? In which case i wonder if he could be a little bigger, but perfect IF he gets moved to 7. I hope he goes, he seems stocky and in the same physical bracket as Pocock...ok a little behind Pocock maybe!

Cumbrian wrote:Anthony Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfKjJcs3-I

There's something about his running i find horribly ugly, and i have this awful feeling he'll disappoint me in the same way Cato has - looks like he might have everything but it just doesn't quite translate. I think it's the sidestep off his right foot, it looks ridiculously telegraphed.

All that said he's looked pretty damn good so hopefully it's my mind thinking tosh as usual

Hood83 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Anthony Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfKjJcs3-I

There's something about his running i find horribly ugly, and i have this awful feeling he'll disappoint me in the same way Cato has - looks like he might have everything but it just doesn't quite translate. I think it's the sidestep off his right foot, it looks ridiculously telegraphed.

All that said he's looked pretty damn good so hopefully it's my mind thinking tosh as usual

I can sort of see what you mean, he does seem to run with his body bent quite far forward, like he's about to trip over his own feet. Saying that, he seems to have superb balance and an explosive change of pace. I rate him, although with all young players, there is a chance he will drop off/ not realise his potential.

I think you've nailed it on both accounts. Fingers crossed i guess

Cumbrian wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Anthony Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfKjJcs3-I

There's something about his running i find horribly ugly, and i have this awful feeling he'll disappoint me in the same way Cato has - looks like he might have everything but it just doesn't quite translate. I think it's the sidestep off his right foot, it looks ridiculously telegraphed.

All that said he's looked pretty damn good so hopefully it's my mind thinking tosh as usual

I can sort of see what you mean, he does seem to run with his body bent quite far forward, like he's about to trip over his own feet. Saying that, he seems to have superb balance and an explosive change of pace. I rate him, although with all young players, there is a chance he will drop off/ not realise his potential.

That's a similar running style to Oz's winger (forgot the name) it looks like an angry chimp defending his territory but seems to work. i think it's too early to really tell with any of these who could make it big, so much is down to their clubs and not the national team.

[quote="Hood83"]

DaveM wrote:
That's pretty much my point on Kvesic. He's being played at 6 and 8 for Worcester right? In which case i wonder if he could be a little bigger, but perfect IF he gets moved to 7. I hope he goes, he seems stocky and in the same physical bracket as Pocock...ok a little behind Pocock maybe!

He's played almost all his rugby for Worcester at 7 this season, with a couple of appearances at 8 when they ran out of other options. I'm not sure you need to be any taller than 6'1 to play any of the backrow positions well.

Digby Ione if anyone is fussed?