How often does a "freak" rugby player come around?

First topic message reminder :

By 'freak' I mean someone who offers so many varied skill sets and plays in such a unique way that in all likelyhood you wouldn't see a player like that again for a generation or maybe ever.

I want to talk about home nations players. We have had some great world class world cup winning players like Wilkinson and Dallaglio, but I want to talk about the likes of BOD and Shane Williams.

Imagine if those 2 had played for England in 2003? It would have been an even more emphatic world cup. Those players to me are unique and irreplaceable because they seem to pop up anywhere on the rugby pitch and perform moves and tricks that other players simply wouldn't even attempt or be able to do.

The past 11 years watch those two on the international stage has been a joy, sometimes almost as exciting as the match itself. Whenever there would be a Wales match or an Ireland match people would say, "I wonder how BOD or Shane will play" etc etc...

Even though Ireland and Wales have pretty strong squads at the moment, the future will not be the same. Obviously Williams is already gone and I don't know how much longer BOD wants to or can play for Ireland. In all honesty I have not seen any other players on the international pitch appear in as many ridiculous or varied positions as those two and pick up tries that way.

My main question is: Is there anyone in the pipeline at the moment for any of the home nations that you think may turn out like one of these two?

But he only established himself in the Ireland side in 2009. Before then he was a bit part player.

If i remember correctly a lot of Irish posters were saying O'Brien was one of the worlds best after the 6 nations last year.

Realistically I agree that Ferris is one of the top international blindsides without going into tedious game-for-game comparisons with others in his position (Lydiate did well against him last time ). In that case what context was Best using, simply best number 6 in the world or best player full stop? Because I thought the latter would be something of a tall claim to say the least.

Anyway, shutting my laptop now and off to enjoy the start of the 6N, good afternoon to all

roddersm wrote:Right now there is no question that Ferris is one of the best 6's in the world, in fact apart from Kaino I can't think of anyone even close. Those two are miles better than anyone else right now and I do mean miles.

Rory Best is perfectly accurate in what he is saying and its great that Ferris wants to be the best on the planet. On this seasons form its a very realistic goal.

I'm not sure I agree. He hardly owned Lydiate. Burger, despite being scum, could give him a run for his money. Harinordiquay at 6? Bonnaire? He is certainly a top-class 6 but there are plenty of players who are close.

Lydiate and the rest of the back row had a good world cup, but once again they have been very hyped up since then. Ferris wasn't at his best at the world cup, but still did very well. Obvious reasoning for that was his return from a career-threatening injury, no competitive rugby for over 6 months and being thrown straight into a world cup. I can't recall any claims that SOB was the world's best last 6 nations, if I'm honest. I would have said the same to them about premature calls.

Thanks Knowsit, you too!

Hell even SOB is a similar quality 6, so there are people on the same 15 as him who are close!

Jonah Lomu is the only one I have seen play in my life time.

Even though Gareth Edwards was ranked #1 in a world poll of the greatest player ever across all countries as selected by players and coaches, you will still find people who say he wasnt even the best in Wales, at the time and even Edwards himself has said the best scrum half during his day was Sid Going so I wouldn't even class Edwards up there in that respect.

The only player I have ever seen who totally revolutinised positional play in rugby was Lomu, because in those days anyone over 6'4 was a lock, anyone short, skinny and fast was generally a back player.

It was the first time it had occured to anyone to put someone who should probably of been a backrow player as a wing because of his size and speed.

Players like shane Williams, Jason Robinson, David Campese, Gerald Davies, Barry John, Phil Bennett, Carlos Spencer, Mike Gibson, Brian O'Driscoll, Martin johnson, Fran Cotton etc, were simply special players, but not in the "freak" catagory.

Interesting to consider S Williams and BOD with respect to England 2003.

I doubt SW would have broken into the England back 3 of Cohen, Robinson and Lewsey at that time (nb these last 3 words). His defensive game has improved in recent years, but to win a World Cup you cannot afford any back who doesn't tackle above his weight. I believe that SCW - rightly or wrongly - never rated SW as highly as other back 3 players of arguably lesser talent, largely for defensive reasons. So, without any implications on SW's magnificent career as a whole - a completely different issue - I conclude he wouldn't have had a sniff of a starting place in the England team circa 2003.

BOD, on the other hand, would have. Probably then and undoubtedly since, he is at least a match for anything England have had in the centre, bar Greenwood at his outstanding best. The major weakness of the England RWC winning squad was the lack of world class depth at centre: Tindall and Catt at that time were very good international players but neither ever should have been close to a World XV. So the obvious midfield pairing would have been Greenwood and BOD, but who to play where? I have a hunch SCW would have tried to play BOD inside, with greater emphasis placed on developing his kicking game - for my money greatly underrated and, arguably, underused at times by Ireland.

A freak is somebody like Carter or Lomu, ie clearly the best player in the world. Below that is world class, in terms of Williams he was outstanding compared to the other home nations but there were multiple wingers from the SH as good or better imo, same goes for BOD. With the depth in the southern hemisphere though guys get drafted in and out whereas the teams from the NH have nothing like the same depth, giving williams and O'Driscoll the opportunity to have long careers at the top.

SimonofSurrey wrote:Interesting to consider S Williams and BOD with respect to England 2003.

I doubt SW would have broken into the England back 3 of Cohen, Robinson and Lewsey at that time (nb these last 3 words). His defensive game has improved in recent years, but to win a World Cup you cannot afford any back who doesn't tackle above his weight. I believe that SCW - rightly or wrongly - never rated SW as highly as other back 3 players of arguably lesser talent, largely for defensive reasons. So, without any implications on SW's magnificent career as a whole - a completely different issue - I conclude he wouldn't have had a sniff of a starting place in the England team circa 2003.

BOD, on the other hand, would have. Probably then and undoubtedly since, he is at least a match for anything England have had in the centre, bar Greenwood at his outstanding best. The major weakness of the England RWC winning squad was the lack of world class depth at centre: Tindall and Catt at that time were very good international players but neither ever should have been close to a World XV. So the obvious midfield pairing would have been Greenwood and BOD, but who to play where? I have a hunch SCW would have tried to play BOD inside, with greater emphasis placed on developing his kicking game - for my money greatly underrated and, arguably, underused at times by Ireland.

The scary thing is even though he has lost some pace, Ireland could easily cover this by putting him at 12 with Earls outside him when he comes back...

Thats what they should have had for the past 2 years or so. D'arcy is so bad these days.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hell even SOB is a similar quality 6, so there are people on the same 15 as him who are close!

SOB is reigning European player of the year and he's not even close to Ferris as a blindside. So no I don't agree that there is anyone close. Kaino and Ferris are head and shoulders above the rest unless you count Dusitoir as a 6.

Lomu was a freak but he wasn´t a very good winger. He didn´t have a kicking game, he was slow to turn around and for me a player like Howlett and Wilson were more complete wingers. And yet, he was such a freak that he has been made into a good winger because if you can do things that other players can´t do, then you are deservedly called a great of the game. Shane Williams deserves to be a great for a similar reason but not for the same game.

We all tend to recognise freaks when they score tries. But to me Parisse is an example of a freak as he is so good but playing in a poor team. But he never gets the recognition he deserves because he plays in a team that doesn´t win many games.

Dusatoir for me is a freak as he often has such an impact on matches without the need for his teammates to be playing well around him.

You can also have goal kicking freaks like M Steyn or Neil Jenkins. They may not have the best all-round game but their kicking talent can win their team matches.

So to me, there are always freaks of the game around. Obviously when tries are scored, then people sit up and notice. But to me a player like Digby Ioane makes me sit up and notice as he always looks dangerous with the ball in hand, regardless of whether he scores or not. That to me is the true definition of freak: someone who can get over the advantage line in an era where defences are much more organised. That can be through strength, through guile or through speed. All deserve to be seen as freakish.

I think we might be veering from what the OP meant.

If by 'freak' you mean someone with skills at odds with (i) their physique and/or (ii) the conventional skillset attached to their position then the field is much smaller. For example, Dan Carter is not 'freakish' in that sense - he has the conventional skillset for a fly half but to an exceptional standard.

Freaks that I saw on tape or live were:

1. Frik du Preez - I think he was voted Saffer's player of the 20th century. A second row who was better kicking out of hand (and dropping goals) than anyone else on his team with the speed, handling skills and ability to see running lines that was on a par with any centre in the world game. That's abnormal.

2. John Eales - 'Nobody' was much the equivalent of du Preez, with the added pressure of goal kicking.

3. Michael Jones - am pushing the boundaries of my own definition but the Iceman was the first person who made transferring positions in the back row a real possibility if you had the talent. There's an argument he was both the best number 8 and blindside in the world which at the time was unheard of.

4. Lomu - nobody of that body shape should be able to move that fast or be that agile.

If on the other hand 'freak' is just someone whose skills in their position seemed light years ahead of their international equivalents at the time - then there's an argument to be made for Graham Price, Mike Gibson (a generation ahead of his peers physically), Philippe Sella, O'Driscoll, Cullen, G. Edwards, Jeff Wilson, Robinson, Van der Westheizen and Campese.

It's a strange question, as differing people are quantifying it differently.

When we consider Lomu's physicality, rather than being a freak, I much rather beleive he was the first generation of players to utilise pace and power rather than just pace out wide. But as close to being freakish you'll ever see now that science and training is turning every player into a monster, infact with the likes of Bowe, North, Roberts, and numerous others I don't think Lomu's impact would be anywhere near as effectfull these days, I also think if he had played for his home nation and not NZ he would've been a Caucau type who showed tons of promise but lacked the platform!

I would rate other players rare abilities up there with Lomu's power output though...

Robinsons and Williams agility and acceleration was amazing.

O gara's metronomic kicking game.

Mccaws breakdown nous.

Carters flawless allround game.

Wilkinsons proffesionalism.

Matfeilds unbeleivable set peice abilities, plus his chip retreive try scoring isn't bad either.

There are innevitably a number more...

A freak is a player who breaks the mould

Lomu, Haskell etc

For me a freak is one who either transcends the game or revolutionises the position. Lomu is the only one who fits that though i thought Michael Jones gave the 7 role a completely new dimension in a way not many players have.done to their respective positions.

Most of the names here were very very good players but a true freak has to stand out well above the rest- current and past i believe.

Thebluesmancometh, Lomu was born in NZ. What exactly is his home nation?

To my mind there is a difference between a freak and a top player.

Michael Jones was a top player, revolutionsing his osition and play.

Lomu was a freak. He was a physical monster who had size, strength and speed, but he lacked skills.

A freak has those physical attributes that makes him a freak, where as a freak does not necesaarily have the skills to be an all round player.

Look out for this guy called Frank Halai dubbed the next Jonah.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/sevens/6369991/Halai-earns-next-Jonah-tag-after-sevens-romp

He actually is the same size of Lomu unlike many of the other pretenders.

"He's about 110kg and ran a 14 in a beep test, which is tremendous for a young Tongan boy at 23...

"It's his ability to just beat players one-on-one. He has a great fend and he's really quick."

At 1.95m and 105kg, and from the same Wesley College background as Lomu, the inevitable comparisons are being made, but in truth they are not new.

Halai was the subject of a TVNZ Close Up report back in 2007 when he was posting 11s 100m times and has been quietly achieving milestones ever since.

Halais been around for a while in. 7s so its a bit premature for that sort of talk.

George North is a freak! FACT!

roddersm wrote:Right now there is no question that Ferris is one of the best 6's in the world, in fact apart from Kaino I can't think of anyone even close. Those two are miles better than anyone else right now and I do mean miles.

Rory Best is perfectly accurate in what he is saying and its great that Ferris wants to be the best on the planet. On this seasons form its a very realistic goal.

I would put Dusautoir above Ferris

roddersm wrote:George North is a freak! FACT!

On George North's home planet he is actually considered quite an average athlete.

Bryce Lawrence is a freak. Wayne Barnes is trying for the same title.

I think longevity in the game is freakish. McCaw has 100 tests and does so playing with little regard for his body. That´s freakish. Brad Thorn, Nathan Hines or Simon Shaw showed that being called old because you´re well over 30 is stupid. Frank Bunce played centre when he was closer to 40 than he was 30.

But it´s true, on reflection, we tend to associate freak with physical power and North showed yesterday he has that strength to shove very big men out of his way. You´d be happy to have Juan Smith, Ferris, Kaino or Dusatoir in your team. Even Higginbotham for Australia who is finally getting game time is very useful.

for all the talk of ferris i thought he was largely outshone by ryan jones yesterday! he looked back to near his best form in an international since 2005.

Brad Thorn has to be considered a freak. To be 36 and still the fittest player in the Allblacks all of all teams is amazing.

cacau. pot head with a bit belly who ran in a kind of strange waddle but was lightning quick. used to love watching him. i remember he nearly chased down a younger drico in a game v agen when drico made an interception and had a 30 yard start on me. he had amazing hands and skill levels too.

christian cullen when he first came on the scene was absolutely sensational. then there was lomu

sam tomkins for wigan warriors actually carrys the ball and glides around the pitch like a young cullen.

gnollbeast wrote:By 'freak' I mean someone who offers so many varied skill sets and plays in such a unique way that in all likelyhood you wouldn't see a player like that again for a generation or maybe ever........
.....I want to talk about home nations players........
.........My main question is: Is there anyone in the pipeline at the moment for any of the home nations that you think may turn out like one of these two?

Hold the money there, laddies. Acording to the OP, this string is about the real "freaks" of Rugby, not a discussion about who is very good to great. And using Mr. Gnollbeast's definition, I find it hard to see there very many.

Certainly Jonah Lomu, Rugby's first truly global superstar, and the most unique athlete in our sport's history. And questions about steroid use aside, he was special, and to me, he stands alone.

I saw someone mention Gareth Edwards. Obviously one of our sport's all time greats. Was he freakish? I think somewhat. I only saw him play when I was young, but I always thought he had a somewhat freakish vision of what was happenning everywhere on the pitch, as if he was watching from above. And the darned good skills to make it all work.

O'Driscoll, might be borderline, but I am not sure I would put him in that category. Terrific player, but not really a freak. He has done everything a lot of centres have done, except he put all the skills together in one package, and was just better, not different, but better.

I think possibly, Scott Gibbs might come close to falling onto the freak category, only becasue of how he played, with such great physicality.

Jonny Wilklinson, possibly also. The best tackling 10 in Rugby history, and a truly bang on kicker, he changed how 10 is played to a certain degree. He locked down the mid-field defense in a way not done previously and always kept opponents on the back foot. Of course, we will never really know what he could have been if the injuries had not bled him of his playing prime.

Just my thoughts..........

roddersm wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hell even SOB is a similar quality 6, so there are people on the same 15 as him who are close!

SOB is reigning European player of the year and he's not even close to Ferris as a blindside. So no I don't agree that there is anyone close. Kaino and Ferris are head and shoulders above the rest unless you count Dusitoir as a 6.

That funny because the current European player of the year outplayed Ferris at the weekend, playing out of position!

doctor_grey wrote:

gnollbeast wrote:By 'freak' I mean someone who offers so many varied skill sets and plays in such a unique way that in all likelyhood you wouldn't see a player like that again for a generation or maybe ever........
.....I want to talk about home nations players........
.........My main question is: Is there anyone in the pipeline at the moment for any of the home nations that you think may turn out like one of these two?

Hold the money there, laddies. Acording to the OP, this string is about the real "freaks" of Rugby, not a discussion about who is very good to great. And using Mr. Gnollbeast's definition, I find it hard to see there very many.

Certainly Jonah Lomu, Rugby's first truly global superstar, and the most unique athlete in our sport's history. And questions about steroid use aside, he was special, and to me, he stands alone.

I saw someone mention Gareth Edwards. Obviously one of our sport's all time greats. Was he freakish? I think somewhat. I only saw him play when I was young, but I always thought he had a somewhat freakish vision of what was happenning everywhere on the pitch, as if he was watching from above. And the darned good skills to make it all work.

O'Driscoll, might be borderline, but I am not sure I would put him in that category. Terrific player, but not really a freak. He has done everything a lot of centres have done, except he put all the skills together in one package, and was just better, not different, but better.

I think possibly, Scott Gibbs might come close to falling onto the freak category, only becasue of how he played, with such great physicality.

Jonny Wilklinson, possibly also. The best tackling 10 in Rugby history, and a truly bang on kicker, he changed how 10 is played to a certain degree. He locked down the mid-field defense in a way not done previously and always kept opponents on the back foot. Of course, we will never really know what he could have been if the injuries had not bled him of his playing prime.

Just my thoughts..........

Steriod use for Lomu? Please elaborate. He took time out of the game in 1997 to battle his kidney disease which involved the use of steriods for medical purposes. These made him balloon to about 145-150 kgs. By the end of the year he'd battled back into the All Blacks and was back down to his peak playing weight. His use of steriods is not a secret because it was to beat an illness which sadly he still has and robbed the rugby world of seeing a true great playing 100% injury free and healthy. You seem to suggest he was NZ's version of Ivan Drago?

Freak to me isn't anything to do with skill but more to do with being a completely different specimen to all around you in that position.
I don't know names but the first 20+ stone, 6'4" prop would have been a freak.
Any second row nudging 7' tall is still a freak to me.
A scrum half over 6' was freakish but now has become acceptable/commonplace.
The early backs who were 6'4" and 18 stone running quicker than anyone on the field were freaks (though that is now becoming common place).
Props without cauliflower ears are freaks.
But I think only the first one that appears in each position is really the freak.

For example, if in 5 years time a tiny diminutive winger appears and runs circles around the man mountains that are playing for all other sides, that lad will be the freak.

dublin_dave wrote:cacau. pot head with a bit belly who ran in a kind of strange waddle but was lightning quick. used to love watching him. i remember he nearly chased down a younger drico in a game v agen when drico made an interception and had a 30 yard start on me. he had amazing hands and skill levels too.

You're Rupeni Cacau? My salutations to a legend of the game

Mr. Mintie,
For Lomu, there were always whispers about steriod use well before the kidney disease. He did always appear somewhat symptomatic, and kidney disease is one of the side effects of excessive use of certain steroids. So which came first?

But that was not my real point. Perhaps I wrote what I meant poorly. I meant to say that I think Lomu was a special player, the first true Rugby Superstar, and that was irregardless of whether he was taking steroids or not.

doctor_grey wrote:Mr. Mintie,
For Lomu, there were always whispers about steriod use well before the kidney disease. He did always appear somewhat symptomatic, and kidney disease is one of the side effects of excessive use of certain steroids. So which came first?

But that was not my real point. Perhaps I wrote what I meant poorly. I meant to say that I think Lomu was a special player, the first true Rugby Superstar, and that was irregardless of whether he was taking steroids or not.

Fair enough, but he was big as a kid going into his teenage years, this would suggest Wesley College were the ones pumping him up, which is a bit of a joke to be honest. I played against Lesley Vainakolo as a 17 yr old and he was as big then as he is now maybe he was on steriods too?

doctor_grey wrote:Mr. Mintie,
For Lomu, there were always whispers about steriod use well before the kidney disease. He did always appear somewhat symptomatic, and kidney disease is one of the side effects of excessive use of certain steroids. So which came first?

But that was not my real point. Perhaps I wrote what I meant poorly. I meant to say that I think Lomu was a special player, the first true Rugby Superstar, and that was irregardless of whether he was taking steroids or not.

A friend of mine played against Lomu in U15s. From his descriptions Jonah was pretty big and quick even then, so he'd have have started on them quite young. Kidney problems are quite common in Polynesian populations (that's one reason why NZ has a very high diabetes rate).

Kiwireddevil wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Mr. Mintie,
For Lomu, there were always whispers about steriod use well before the kidney disease. He did always appear somewhat symptomatic, and kidney disease is one of the side effects of excessive use of certain steroids. So which came first?

But that was not my real point. Perhaps I wrote what I meant poorly. I meant to say that I think Lomu was a special player, the first true Rugby Superstar, and that was irregardless of whether he was taking steroids or not.

A friend of mine played against Lomu in U15s. From his descriptions Jonah was pretty big and quick even then, so he'd have have started on them quite young. Kidney problems are quite common in Polynesian populations (that's one reason why NZ has a very high diabetes rate).

Is it not the other way around? Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus causes renal failure not vice versa in general

Yes, absolutely right.
Being a orthopaedist I'm not an expert, but even in populations with genetic predisposition to diabetes, there are almost always other causitive factors.