Fed up of Warren Gatland

I am a welsh fan who knows Wales' level and what reasonable expectations are. The one thing I do expect us to do is play a style of rugby that evolves, can be tweaked for purpose and gets the best out of our talent. In two major areas during Gatland's tenure we have got things wrong in terms of tactics and selection all too often. Here are just a few examples:

Fourth in the Six Nations in 2010 due to a turgid one dimensional game plan.

Making certain underperforming players undroppable for almost four years, ignoring form choices elsewhere.

Hook at full back.

Henson's soap opera before the world cup.

This new style of play that means we always kick long from the 22, up and under in the middle area of the field and keep in hand in the opponents 22.

But sure let's look at the side he's picked for Ireland on Sunday. Andy Powell is on the bench whereas Aaron Shingler who is a young talent who will be vital to Wales' next World Cup and Six Nations campaigns is not even on the bench, despite form and playing in Wales. Huw Bennett starts despite Ken Owen's impressive throwing stats in the Magners and his dynamic carries that he brings. Ryan Jones is so immobile he's had to become a second row plays in the back row! Roberts is deemed worthy of a place despite clearly not being fit - whereas the form choice Ashley Beck cannot even get on the bench because the shambolic Scott Williams is there! Then you've got Liam Williams who is better than Cuthbert but not as big having to play second fiddle!

I've no doubt that we will lose to Ireland and some of these selections will come back to haunt us, but be ignored and repeated. I've no doubt that our game plan will be exposed and manipulated and we will be ineffectual.

We wont score a try and we will lose by 15 points. If I am wrong I will happily take a lot of stick but I cannot see that being the case.

A grandslam and 4th in the world cup, when it could have been 2nd?

No coach has achieved that with Wales.

Talk about being harsh - Powell is there because he can cover 8 and 6, Shingler can cover 4,5,6 & maybe at a push 7, but we have Ryan Jones covering 4,5 & playing 6, and Tipuric covering 7, so if we put Shingler on the bench we'd have no-one to cover 8.
I agree with you that Beck should be on the bench but to call S Williams shmabolic is ridiculous he's just out of form. Also we don't know Dr Bobs fitness as we haven't seen him play but Gats has spent 2/3 weeks in an intense environment with him so he should now more than me.

And true some people (me included) will say Liam is better, but to be honest there's not much in it and both are inexperienced - personally I'd have gone for Byrne instead - but I can't see that that selection is going to cost us the game.

And while Gats style of play was shockingly bad for 3 seasons after the GS, the last year or so we've been playing very good rugby so not sure why your ranting.

Lee Byrne! Against Ireland! Really? Aimless kicking and comical errors masked by one or two high catches?

Not if he's on form as everyone seems to saying he is

And I think Powell is there because we feel that having an idiot on the sidelines clapping his hands is inspirational! I find it embarrassing but there we are. Shingler needs to lower his IQ by 80 points and then he'll be picked!

I've seen his last 3 matches for Clermont. One was good, one was too quiet to tell and one was very poor.

So you think that Shingler is a better 8 at international level than Powell?

No i think you can put Ryan Jones on the bench if needs must!

but these days Ryans a pretty poor 8 and a much better 6 or lock

Yeah that's because he's always running through treacle! But hopefully he wouldn't be needed at 8 anyway. McCusker could fill a bench spot I guess. This will teach us for leaving Delve out in the cold!

I too am fed up with Gatts, before anyone accuses me of hating all things Welsh, just remember, if I feel so strongly that he is holding Wales back then surely I should be happy!

IMO Gatts is a good man to have around but not as a head coach, time and time again he makes mistakes both with his selections and with his mouth. I truly believe that Wales should have done better in the RWC ok you had a man sent off in the semi but the game was still there to be won, 2011 might have been the one year Wales had a chance to win the thing and Gatts blew it for you.

You have a first choice backrow of Warburton (23), Lydiate (23) and Falatau (21) and your honestly whinging that youth is not being given a chance!!

I do agree that Shingler should have been 6 but I also think Gatland has gone for experience against a very tasty Irish back row. I cannot possibly see how anyone can be complaining after the world cup we've just had. I definitely think that the team announced has a decent chance on Sunday.

i think he hasn't gone for Shingler as he can be a bit of a hot head and gets on the wrong side of the ref, he's also still a little green. Also Ryans been playing ok, admittedly at lock most of the time, but he has experience and has done a good job of covering for Lydiate for Wales before.

Im gutted he hasnt picked Henson.

Gutted.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Im gutted he hasnt picked Henson.

Gutted.

You could probably pick up a calender in the bargain bins somewhere if that will satisfy you! Might be 6 years out of date however...

Peter seabiscuit wheeler maybe you could sign Henson at Leicester as a fly half/ inside centre. With the loss of Twelvetrees and likely departure of Staunton you need someone to fill in.

beshocked, they'd have to guarentee Gav the 12 shirt though!

Hot and cold...hot and cold. That kind of thing cracks eventually.

I do love the Welsh though. We Irish complain about the right way to win and hope that it might happen anyway - even if the wrong way is used!!!.

The Welsh are different - they either know they are going to win or know they are going to lose. No argument. They're either deleriously happy or suicidally sad.

Wait for the game, please - I really do think it might have a thing or two to say about the result.

beshocked wrote:Peter seabiscuit wheeler maybe you could sign Henson at Leicester as a fly half/ inside centre. With the loss of Twelvetrees and likely departure of Staunton you need someone to fill in.

Yeah wed be on the brink of that then Glaws would garuntee him the starting 12 shirt ....

Secret, don't tar us all!

I'm hoping for a decent 6nations! 2nd would be nice, but ill take 1st, or a slam. y'know

Agree with some of, but not a lot of the OP.

Halfpenny was the man in the 15 shirt, and has been playing fabulous rugby. Then you have to start a winger, so Cuthbert, unless you want to start Liam Williams out of position in his first cap away to Ireland?! No thanks!

Wales dont ALWAYS do that, thats just what Scrum V said, they are base rules, as all sides will have, variation is king these days.

Although im not a Powell fan, he is quick, and he is strong and he has experience. I imagine he'll be brought on in place of Jones (or Jones moving to lock and Powell to 6) to keep up the intensity and physicality. Hes not going to set off fireworks, but he is a nuisance for the opposition.

Bennett had to start, would have prefeered Rees, but no option, throwing Owens in there could have been a bad move, especially with Gill starting on the loosehead in only his 2nd cap. You HAVE to bed players in. You cant go around bringing in 7/8 faces new to international rugby, in a high-pressure situation (and out of position in some suggestions).

Think Webb/Beck should be on the bench over Lloyd & Scott Williams, but Gatlands gone for (presumably) the familiarity with the set up, structures and tactics.

You cant say players will be vital for the next 6nations/world cup when theyv not even played in an international test.

Comfort wrote:Secret, don't tar us all!

I'm hoping for a decent 6nations! 2nd would be nice, but ill take 1st, or a slam. y'know

Ah I'm only generalising for effect. You need a few literary devices to circumnavigate this 606v2, don't begrudge me mine

Wum - stay away

Comfort wrote:Secret, don't tar us all!

I'm hoping for a decent 6nations! 2nd would be nice, but ill take 1st, or a slam. y'know

Agree with some of, but not a lot of the OP.

Halfpenny was the man in the 15 shirt, and has been playing fabulous rugby. Then you have to start a winger, so Cuthbert, unless you want to start Liam Williams out of position in his first cap away to Ireland?! No thanks!

Wales dont ALWAYS do that, thats just what Scrum V said, they are base rules, as all sides will have, variation is king these days.

Although im not a Powell fan, he is quick, and he is strong and he has experience. I imagine he'll be brought on in place of Jones (or Jones moving to lock and Powell to 6) to keep up the intensity and physicality. Hes not going to set off fireworks, but he is a nuisance for the opposition.

Bennett had to start, would have prefeered Rees, but no option, throwing Owens in there could have been a bad move, especially with Gill starting on the loosehead in only his 2nd cap. You HAVE to bed players in. You cant go around bringing in 7/8 faces new to international rugby, in a high-pressure situation (and out of position in some suggestions).

Think Webb/Beck should be on the bench over Lloyd & Scott Williams, but Gatlands gone for (presumably) the familiarity with the set up, structures and tactics.

You cant say players will be vital for the next 6nations/world cup when theyv not even played in an international test.

Very true

SecretFly wrote: They're either deleriously happy or suicidally sad.

I think you just summed up the welsh rugby phsyche perfectly with that comment. As you can see Im deliriously happy with our team selection.

I'm actually surprised (and pleased) come to think of it that Gats has left Henson out. The fact that Scott is there instead shows some long awaited consistency in the picks.

Beck has been on form but we hardly want to see a Lievremont-style different selection every major tournament, some ought to be retained for the sake of gelling the team and developing the individual. Anyway, you can hardly slate Gatland as overly conservative when Gill and Cuthbert are in there. Add to that that the players have a tendency of dipping in form when returning to the regions due to (I believe) poor coaching there in contrast.

Bizarre that you're choosing now to lay into Gatland. In 2010 when he was shooting his mouth and generally leading us to some torrid results more will have agreed as opposed to now when he's kept quiet and right after he's delivered pretty much what he promised: a competitive RWC.

I´m fed up with no international rugby. Come on and start already 6N. Let the pre-match banter descend into bragging rights and recriminations. Who cares about the coaches. I want the sound of head-on contact (not head on head contact!). I´ve got test rugby withdrawal. I need a hit.

Gatland on the other hand is someone just to hit.

A decent tournament for Wales would be wins over Italy and Scotland and one more win.

Though England, Ireland and France are not unbeatable, so we have a chance of winning something.

Gatland is a good coach and I really don't want anyone else doing the job.

OP - You're fed up of Gatts because he's not throwing together a mis-match team of "form" youngsters and plunging them straight in the deep end?

We're without 4 of our starting pack, so experience is needed, that's why Jones is starting 6 and Powell covering. The irish pack is full of experience and could end up tearing a young Shingler apart on his first cap, completely knocking his confidence.

Beck is on form, but why fix what isn't broken? Roberts and JD is solid if nothing else, the first match, away to Ireland, isn't the time to try untested combos. Williams has had some experience as cover at least.

As for Williams being better.. that's just oppinion, but really we need halfpenny at fullback and Cuthbert is more of an out and out winger than Williams.

We have had this argument before about picking just form players and it doesn't work.

Yes you have to go with form to a degree but you also have to have faith that like in the WC players will come good, if we wnt for form then this would be the likely team:

Gill
T R Thomas
A Jones
A Jones
L Reed
Shingler
Faletau
Tpiuric

Webb
?????? are any of our 10s really in that good form

Cuthbert
Beck
Hughes
North - but hasn't been in the best

Halfpenny

So there you go theres yor team of form players, thank god Gatland can see beyond that and picked his on side.

Doesn't this guys posting look very familiar....? Exactly the same points, written in the same style as someone else who used to post on here...? Cant remember his name though...?

Put Liam Williams on that list instead of North Bedford.

maestegmafia wrote:Doesn't this guys posting look very familiar....? Exactly the same points, written in the same style as someone else who used to post on here...? Cant remember his name though...?

It ain't me and I'm usually the one having a moan about "man with rabbit in his head" Gatland.

Seriously though, selection looks ok. Just worried about poor form over crimbo.

The selection is pretty much spot on really, like in the WC you have to hope that players will find form when in the Welsh set up.

I would have started Byrne and thats more to do with Cuthberts in-experience especially being away from home.

None of our 10 as really in top form so Priestlands the man in possesion so to speak.

Gill has been pretty solid all season for Sarries and handled Adam very weel in the HC.

Oh dear some one has been watching Gwyn Jones tactical montage of Wales play.
Who else would have the job? Sean Holley!

It is the exact XV I would have picked, at worse he's giving guys a decent shot at the big time - it's very difficult to criticise this selection - However, I would have Webb on the bench and I wouldn't have Powell or Tipuric but I can see his reasoning. C'mon Walesss - Ian Evans has promised a lot and not delivered what was expected - this is his big chance - I actually think he will come up short, if he does he cannot complain that he hasn't had enough chances

Warren 'Derren Brown' Gatland is my favourite manager of the 6 nations, not for his Rugby nous, but for how he's turned a Sows ear, into well, a Sows ear, and still managed to convince the Welsh public that they are World beaters who should be mentioned in the same breath as the SH giants. I don't know how he does it (hypnosis) but given his obvious talent for B.S, i wonder if he can sell some of the snow in my Back garden to the Eskimo's.

If he can massage the Welsh ego, with as little as he has achieved, then i wouldn't put it past him!!

Im confused...

Gatland has been doing things right for the last 8 months,

But some people still want him gone after leading Wales to the bring of the WC final (and the reason they didnt get there had very little to do with Gats)

Also, his team selection is good - Though, I think I would have prefered P.James starting and Gill on the bench.

wales606 wrote:Im confused...

Gatland has been doing things right for the last 8 months,

But some people still want him gone after leading Wales to the bring of the WC final (and the reason they didnt get there had very little to do with Gats)

Also, his team selection is good - Though, I think I would have prefered P.James starting and Gill on the bench.

I think all the welsh fans agree with you. The poster is a troll like EW above... probably the same bloke with another identity on here...!

Wales 606. "Troll, WUM... blah blah" It's my opinion you numbskull! I was wrong today on a few things. And for that I hold my hands up.

However!

Owens instead of Bennettt - I stand by it
Liam Williams and Beck in with Tipuric on form and considering injuries. I stand by that.

That is my opinion. I am fed up of hearing these stupid internet phrases for an opinion that is different. If you think Cuthbert, Warburton and Roberts then that is fine. I respect that. I am just giving my own personal opinion.

Bennett maybe i agree with but we needed his experience today. When Rees is fit he will start.
Who would Liam Williams and Beck come in for?
Tipuric might start on the blindside but i doubt it.

Liam Williams for Cuthbert. Plays wing for Scarlets just as often as full back and defends amazingly. Plus he scores tries. Beck for an injured Roberts. Of course Roberts would have his place back if he started outperform Beck or Beck had two or three bad games. Unlikely though the way he's played all season agains Saracens and Biarritz to name two. Tipuric for Warburton was my choice on form. Hugely contentious I know. Just my pick on form preference.

Form isn't always the best choice though.
If NZ for example picked purely on form then year after year the Chiefs, Hurricanes and Highlanders players would be left out

New Zealand don't need to worry about it. Different kettle of fish in many aspects. I'm talking about Wales. We have had a tradition of players resting on their laurels, of being slow to drop players and also its rare we get good young players and so we should reward it.

I think it's a fine line, form is important but international experince is important too - the key is getting the right balance and at the moment Gatland seems to be getting it right. As long as he keeps doing that i'm happy, it's a win today, thats what matters

I dont know why your criticising Roberts play today max, he was used primarily as a decoy runner which worked very well. When he did take the ball forward he punched holes and always took two or three tacklers with him. That created room ofr JD to work has magic. Honestly our centre pairing was key to our victory today.

I wouldnt be suprised to see Byrne come back into the mix next week, As Hook isnt a full back. If Warbs is out then Tipuric will keep the no 7 shirt, Shingler or Lydiate on the blindside as Ryna is going to be needed in teh second row. HOpefully Smiler will be back at Hooker as Owens is just as flaky as Bennett on the throw and less effective in the scrum or loose.

Owens had the best lineout throwing stats in the Magners a year ago. And he is a willing ball carrier. Lee Byrne? Please...

But has been a weakness of his in the past. Also lineout throwing in the Magners league is completely different to an international match in Dublin.
He probably would have been worse than Bennett in that department today.

Its better to play Byrne at fullback then Hooky out of position it ain't fair on the poor fella