A neutrals view on Scotland-England

First topic message reminder :

Let's be honest, it was a poor side from both sides in conditions that didn't warrant a sort of game like the one we saw today. Here's my take on how the game had the outcome it did:

For me, like Jiffy, Scotland look clueless in the 22. 20 tries in 25 matches says that they simply do not have the valuable composure to finish guilt edged chances that they create. And, there's the thing, they are creating these chances, they are breaking over the gain line, yet, still they cannot finish the opportunities presented to them. When Rennie missed the simple inside pass to Blair in the second half, it summed up everything that we have seen from Scotland under Andy Robinson's reign. The handling errors today were appalling today from both sides, but, Scotland made them in the worst areas of the field, just when they had England where they wanted them.

Dan Parks' selection should have sent the alarm bells ringing. As a Blues fan like many others, we cannot wait to see the back of Parks, as he cannot get the backs going, which is exactly what Scotland and the Blues want. What Parks needs to do is rather than changes his game, go to a club which has a gameplan revolving around it's forwards, and requires tactical kicking to earn them wins. Who that club is I don't know. Laidlow played well when he came on, but probably looked allot better due to Parks' performance. Cusiter was far to slow today at the breakdown, who then played it to Parks who again was far too slow, meaning the backs were collecting ball with no momentum, making it easy for England to clear the rucks efficiently and earning turnover after turnover. Scotland's forwards were outstanding today. A solid scrum in the first half, which did seem under more pressure in the second (probably not helped by Hartley standing up every single scrum), but was pretty sturdy throughout. Gray was back to his ball carrying best and his superb catching under pressure from Palmer and Croft at the line-out was also commendable and Denton was absolutely outstanding. But it must be demoralising to think they go through all that hard work and big hits to see their good work undone by error after error after error. Scotland need to continue their expansive game al la Edinburgh and sooner or later they will convert these chances. Once they score a couple of tries they should kick on and take their game to the next level.

England, for a team that had many uncapped players and just 30% possession I believe, were good in defence. They had a tight defensive line which Scotland were unable to take advantage of. However, it worked and I though Barritt was excellent in defence along with dan cole who I believe was quite good at the rucks.

But it is clear that this England side needs allot of work, and we probably won't see the true potential of this side until at least next years six nations. They too, were error stricken. Their scrum was poor first half as was their set pieces. Hodgson looked his usual nervous self under pressure, and despite his charge down and try, he still looks out of his depth at this level, just like he was the first time around. Youngs just isn't living up to the build people like the Daily Telegraph gave him, when in last years six nations game with Wales, they claimed: Youngs can be a better player than Gareth Edwards, with many of the comments supporting that view. He, imo, is what was wrong with many of the WC players, arrogant and thinks he's better than he is. Now don't get me wrong, the boy has talent. He can distribute quickly and can make some dazzling breaks, but he starting too show some fragility mentally, with his head going down quite frequently if he isn't having it his own way. Danny Care must be kicking himself for those extra couple of pints because I'm sure Youngs would be playing second fiddle to him.

England today dodged a bullet. Despite their excellent defence Scotland lost this game today. If they had taken their chances they would have won this game quite comfortably, but, as I'm sure people will be keen to point out, a wins a win and there's no good saying if's/but's and maybe's. Rightly so, but you would have to be a firm blooded England rugby fan to think Italy will be a pushover next week, I'm sure the majority are smart enough to agree and say that it won't be. Scotland need to move on and develop a mental edge which will allow them to take their chances in the future. Until then, they will still be battling Italy for the wooden spoon. A win's a win for England, and its a young inexperienced side with potential. If they win in Rome next week it will be an even more tasty affair when the Wales game comes around in game 3. I'm afraid Scotland, regardless of tomorrow's outcome, will be lucky to be within 10 of Wales next week.

Cymru am byth!! c'mon boys, give us something to shout about tomorrow.

Blimey, maest has a very high opinion of them.

I don't think they were nearly that bad and the fact they were a new team starting in a hostile away game is bound to take its toll.

No good players? That's harsh and rubbish to be honest. Wales have a good side and some good players, we can admit that. What's wrong with admitting that eng has the odd good player but needs a coach who can use them?

We all need to get a grip with regards to this game.....as I've said before on other posts ENGLAND SCOTLAND 6N GAMES ARE ALMOST ALWAYS DIRE! England won, there were plusses and minuses. Scotland are not a bad team. I'll re-visit this site after wales have played them in cardiff. I honestly think there'll be a lot more reasoned discussion then. A young, innexperienced side went to murryfield and won! Give us a few games to gel and at long last there may be the opportunity for optimism.......for both sides involved yesterday.

I seriously doubt whether eitrher side will play that poorly agian this season, if they do neither side will win another game!

I thought England lacked balance in the back row with 3 pretty similar players. Also at halfback where neither Young or Hodgson impressed. Farrell is wasted at centre, he was totally anonymous until he went to 10. Front 5 looked OK but Hartly seems to pop up every scrum, there must be a better hooker available.

Scotland need an outside half, Parks isn't even steady! Also the centres are too similar, but with Parks at 10 they rarely get any decent ball anyway. 1-15 need to practice handling the ball it was woeful at times.

Anyone else think that Scotlands disallowed try looked like it should have been awarded but Englands try looked a bit dodgy?

Why was it dire, because once again we measure the scoreline?

The last 20 minutes Scotland played their hearts out and could have scored on a number of occasions, all England did was defend and kick the ball away in panick every time they won posession.

It may not have been a classic, but it was a true test match, littered with mistakes admittedly, but still good to watch.

I am sorry but I just don't get what people want from a test match.

Not every one can play like New Zealand when they are in top form all the time.

Seagultaf wrote:I seriously doubt whether eitrher side will play that poorly agian this season,

rugby has more than one facet of play.

Could you please expand on where each team was so poor.

people dont get a grip when it comes to england performances.

its allways over sensationalist bs, especially from rival fans

truth is they did enough- we expect more, i am sure we will get more.

lol its as if people can actuallt remember a decent high quailty scotland v england game- not in my lifetime though!!

people have short memories when they discuss englands failings- fact,realities,past fixtures dont bear mentioning with many, just emotion

eirebilly wrote:english warrior;

The points aside, do you honestly feel that England were the better side? Scotland butchered several try scoring opportunities and i am struggeling to remember if England really had any at all?

They did win the breadown comfortably with several turnovers.

There have been so many times over the past 8 years when England have been the better side and lost. So when they're for once not the better side and win, I can't begrudge them that.

I'm amazed people expect so much from a team that was thrown together for the first time ever in this match. Eng were never really likely to win it and yet did, some credit is due for that. They will get bet and the balance of players will be worked out, at least they are finally looking to youth.

A quick question not worth a new post:

Greig Laidlaw almost try, which went to the TMO. He jumped onto Youngs' (think it was him) back and climbed over him before Youngs had touched the ball. Youngs did well to get to the ball despite having Laidlaw on his back.

I thought tackling the man without the ball is a penalty offence.

Alex_Germany wrote:

eirebilly wrote:english warrior;

The points aside, do you honestly feel that England were the better side? Scotland butchered several try scoring opportunities and i am struggeling to remember if England really had any at all?

They did win the breadown comfortably with several turnovers.

There have been so many times over the past 8 years when England have been the better side and lost. So when they're for once not the better side and win, I can't begrudge them that.

Not begrudging them the win at all. Winning ugly is also winning.

Alex_Germany wrote:A quick question not worth a new post:

Greig Laidlaw almost try, which went to the TMO. He jumped onto Youngs' (think it was him) back and climbed over him before Youngs had touched the ball. Youngs did well to get to the ball despite having Laidlaw on his back.

I thought tackling the man without the ball is a penalty offence.

Agree. He grabbed him with both hands first and then kept his left arm round him. Not only pulling Youngs slightly back but pulling himself forward. Still don't understand why they didn't go back for the Scottish penalty

HammerofThunor wrote:

Alex_Germany wrote:A quick question not worth a new post:

Greig Laidlaw almost try, which went to the TMO. He jumped onto Youngs' (think it was him) back and climbed over him before Youngs had touched the ball. Youngs did well to get to the ball despite having Laidlaw on his back.

I thought tackling the man without the ball is a penalty offence.

Agree. He grabbed him with both hands first and then kept his left arm round him. Not only pulling Youngs slightly back but pulling himself forward. Still don't understand why they didn't go back for the Scottish penalty

It could well have been a penalty to England.

But even then it should have gone back to the Scottish penalty. Ref must have forgot since he had to wait so long for TMO

Not sure of the rules, but I'd expect if you commit a penalty offence whilst playing advantage, you give away a penalty and lose your penalty.

Strictly speaking the ref should have then allowed England to play advantage and I'd argue getting a 22 drop out is a better outcome than having a penalty one metre from your line.

But I couldn't believe it when it went to the TMO - and replay after replay showed Laidlaw climbing all over Youngs.

Alex_Germany wrote:Not sure of the rules, but I'd expect if you commit a penalty offence whilst playing advantage, you give away a penalty and lose your penalty.

Strictly speaking the ref should have then allowed England to play advantage and I'd argue getting a 22 drop out is a better outcome than having a penalty one metre from your line.

The way I understand the law:

If a penalty advantage applies to your team, as soon as you make a handling error, or commit a foul yourself, play is called back to where the first offence occured. that is if advantage has not been called over yet.

I don't think he believed in the concept of a penalty in general

biltongbek wrote:

Alex_Germany wrote:Not sure of the rules, but I'd expect if you commit a penalty offence whilst playing advantage, you give away a penalty and lose your penalty.

Strictly speaking the ref should have then allowed England to play advantage and I'd argue getting a 22 drop out is a better outcome than having a penalty one metre from your line.

The way I understand the law:

If a penalty advantage applies to your team, as soon as you make a handling error, or commit a foul yourself, play is called back to where the first offence occured. that is if advantage has not been called over yet.

True unless a professional or dangerous foul occurs in which case a referee can overturn/reverse a penalty