England fan's view on Wales team

I think Wales have got things right with the move to Regions and after a difficult start they look ready to reap the rewards.

For the last few years Wales have had a very strong first team but have not been able to cope with a few injuries. This has changed and Wales look to have a very strong squad that can still win away in Ireland, against a strong Irish team gunning for World Cup revenge, despite missing the likes of Jenkins, Lydiate and others. Very impressive!

I thought Wales did very well in the world cup but felt the hype was a little excessive given the loses to SA and France. The 3rd place playoff is completely meaningless and does not count for much in my opinion.

If Wales manage to pull of a grand slam this year it would be a huge achievement given the difficult away games. Having seen the quality and self belief of this team against Ireland I think they can do it. I also fancy that they can get a couple of wins over the SH later in the year.

North, Felatau and Warberton look like potential world 15 players to me. I can't think of any English player with that kind of potential other than Tuilagi and he is still very raw (and not very English).

England's best players against Scotland were the South Africans Barritt and Botha. I can't help but feel that they and the likes of Robshaw and Dowson are just hard working journeymen. Morgan impressed in his 12 mins but he looks out of shape.

I can see Wales and France dominating the NH for some time to come. They will be NH's best hopes for the next world cup. England just don't have good enough players, Ireland are getting old, and Scotland consistently rubbish. Who do you think is the best in the NH and will they compete with the SH over the next world cup cycle?

felt the hype was a little excessive given the loses to SA and France

England Fan - that's a nice post and appreciated, however it does frustrate me a bit when people talk about the SA and France games as barometers and failures - We have to put these in context, we missed simple pots at goal to win both games, one of which we played most of with 14 men. We butchered a few opportunities against S Africa as well but ultimately we were more than well in these games and probably should have won both. People seem to just suggest that they were failures and the word "hype" really niggles - I didn't see the RWC as hype or a flash in the pan and perhaps the victory in Dublin will keep that one at bay, I doubt it but remain a little frustrated at some peceptions (obviously not yours). Thank you again for your positive comments regarding Wales at present.

I doubt this poster is English.

Nothing wrong with the praise for Wales - it's certainly due, but the old broken record of 'non-english' players sounds as if England_1979 may not be singing from the English hymn sheet.

More Bread of Heavan than Jerusalem, if you see what I mean.

Well done to Wales though.

North, Felatau and Warberton look like potential world 15 players to me. I can't think of any English player with that kind of potential other than Tuilagi and he is still very raw (and not very English)

Faletau wasn't exactly born and bred in Ebbw Vale you know .. But he has been in Wales for a long time. I think in pro rugby era we have to ignore the pure breed rule, as many players now qualify through residency.

Always nice to hear a neutrals perspective, but I have to agree with ruby. The world cup was one of the first times there wasn't a lot of hype surrounding Wales and it was one of the reasons that seemed to relax the team, according to the players. No one expected us to get into the quarter finals, we did. The majority didn't expect us to beat Ireland (me included) but we did. Then we lost out to France down to 14 men and by not kicking our goals. Only then was some of the hype a little more justified.

I've been caught hook line and sinker!

wales are doing well and deserve praise however dont go down the route of are our players english- there are as english as they nead to be end of story. they are also as english as welsh players are welsh. talk about the positives not the way the world of international sportsmen are nationalised(that surely is for another thread, and all teams are guilty of that)

Impossible Standards wrote:I've been caught hook line and sinker!

lol possibly me to

TrailApe wrote:I doubt this poster is English.

Nothing wrong with the praise for Wales - it's certainly due, but the old broken record of 'non-english' players sounds as if England_1979 may not be singing from the English hymn sheet.

More Bread of Heavan than Jerusalem, if you see what I mean.

Well done to Wales though.

My thoughts exactly. Not very well disguised self engrandishment.

I can normally spot a WUM....I am losing my power

Look I'm sorry guys but I am English and have been all of my life.

I have been impressed with Wales and call me old fashioned but I prefer England to play English players. I'm not so bothered about players like Tuilagi, who have come over young. I get annoyed by journeyman South Africans and the likes of Waldrom, who never dreamed of playing for England when they were kids, but suddenly see a chance for international rugby and get it at the expense of an Englishman.

You are allowed to be impressed by other teams. It doesn't mean I don't care about England.

Welcome to the forum England_Fan1979.

I have to say that I am struggling to identify with your rather pessimistic point of view regarding English talent and prospects for the 2015 RWC. It's easy, and obviously highly subjective to talk about talented players with a lot of 'potential'. As such I think it helps to look at some proven results for the 'future'. Then, given the players England are currently working with, we'll have a look at 'potential'.

Given that we're talking about future talent pools, the most relevant demonstration of such talents can be found in the Junior World Championship; contested by all the major rugby countries numbering 12 in total. Here are the results for that tournament for the past four years:

2008 - New Zealand (England Runners Up)

2009 - New Zealand (England Runners Up)

2010 - New Zealand (England 3rd Place)

2011 - New Zealand (England Runners Up)

New Zealanders have won most of the past IRB Junior Player of the Season awards, with England's young George Ford winning in 2011.

In terms of potential then, it would seem that England have the measure of most teams in world rugby at these top end developmental stages. Now if you're seriously telling me that that indicates we don't have any decent players and there's no hope for the future, then I suggest you sign on for some prescription drugs.

As far as players for today goes, England won 10 out of 13 games in 2011. We have also beaten Australia and France home and away in very recent memory. Whilst a number of players have retires, we have kept a core of that team which most people would agree have a considerable amount of talent.

Dan Cole, Dylan Hartley, Tom Croft, Ben Youngs, Manu Tuialgi, Chris Ashton and Ben Foden are unquestionably talented players. Some have more 'potential' than others and of course that needs to be realised; but one only needs to turn to Gloucester and such with the likes of Charlie Sharples, Jonny May, Henry Trinder, Freddie Burns etc... to see that another wave of highly talented young players are developing at quite a rate.

Where the cupboard at the moment seems a little bare would be in the forwards. Many on here proclaim the deity that is Chris Robshaw, but there is also the likes of Tom Wood and Ben Morgan who could come to be stand-out players. It also takes forwards a little longer to appear from age grade given the physical nature of the game and their development opportunities.

So far from being the death of English rugby, I think we can look forward to exciting and hopefully expansive times ahead.

England_Fan1979 wrote:Look I'm sorry guys but I am English and have been all of my life.

I have been impressed with Wales and call me old fashioned but I prefer England to play English players. I'm not so bothered about players like Tuilagi, who have come over young. I get annoyed by journeyman South Africans and the likes of Waldrom, who never dreamed of playing for England when they were kids, but suddenly see a chance for international rugby and get it at the expense of an Englishman.

You are allowed to be impressed by other teams. It doesn't mean I don't care about England.

pal none of us have issues with praising the wlesh, they deserveit - the problem is obvious, you measured Felatau against tuilga- both are residents,, north is also half english.

therefore your either a wum, very misinformed, or you just suck at making arguments.

if you are genuine- welcome to the forum, however you can praise the welsh without going against the english, you are arguing points that also argue against the welsh

Look I'm sorry guys but I am English and have been all of my life.

Sure you are, I believe you.




Total coincedence that in your first post you praise the Welsh team and have a dig at the 'foriegn' English contingent. Total coincidence that you mention the 'difficult' birth of the Regions - like an English supporter gives a tinkers cuss about the 'problems' that the Welsh rugby is having or has had with their internal stucture.

As said before - by many English, Irish, Scots and the Boks and Kiwis, well done Wales.

No need for this 1979, no need at all.

Chjw131 - I think you make some very valid points. England do have some decent players and some excellent kids coming through.

I like Ford, the Vunipola bros, Kzevic, Joseph, Watson and many others. But we have been coming second in the Junior WC for years but not enough of the players make it at senior level. I think the main problem is that premiership clubs don't like risking a kid that might miss a few tackles with relegation hanging over them and opt for an experienced journeyman to be safe.

Can you explain why Cockerill would prefer Staunton to Ford?

The problem with England rugby is that there is no safe Celtic league to help rookies learn their trade. Wales and Ireland have it sorted. The top internationals are prepared for the HC and the national teams. The Celtic league is used as a development tool for talented youngsters.

England fans get rubbish in the HC and international rugby but get a rousing dog fight to avoid relegation. I would prefer to have a soft league without relegation, where the teams aren't scared to chuck the ball around, with some success in the HC and international game.

TrailApe wrote:

Look I'm sorry guys but I am English and have been all of my life.

Sure you are, I believe you.




Total coincedence that in your first post you praise the Welsh team and have a dig at the 'foriegn' English contingent. Total coincidence that you mention the 'difficult' birth of the Regions - like an English supporter gives a tinkers cuss about the 'problems' that the Welsh rugby is having or has had with their internal stucture.

As said before - by many English, Irish, Scots and the Boks and Kiwis, well done Wales.

No need for this 1979, no need at all.

Look mate this is crazy. I am English but am not going to argue about it all afternoon. I'm sorry if you don't like my views regarding foreign players playing for England but I'm sure there are at least a few who will agree. Like I said I'm not that bothered about the likes of Tuilagi who have been here for years. It is more Waldrom that grates on me. All the suddenly find a grandparent rubbish.

England Fan - you now have a taste of what its like to be welsh - Your post is balanced and refreshing and I must say realistic rather than jingoistic. People trying to quote Junior world cups as a barometer of future success are really stretching the correlation. We have had many years of english success at this level due to the sheer volume of players; yet we have North, 1/2p, Cuthbert, Warburton, Prydie, J Davies, Faletau, Williams and Knoyle who have all represented Wales at under 20 recently and who now feature in a successful national team - England have?? Tuilagi who is very lucky to be in the UK and now Farrell - It's hardly a conveyer belt of youth with the upshot being that England resort to the likes of Flutey, Waldrom, Botha, Hape et al, none who I think have represented England at under 20 - Lancaster has been brave and brought in some english youth - give it time and it may well produce dividends, but it needs time and I'm not sure that most english fans and the media are going to allow that

I would prefer to have a soft league without relegation, where the teams aren't scared to chuck the ball around, with some success in the HC and international game.

.

Na!

Not biting.

Good try though.

Again England Fan makes a valid point about the difference in the respective leagues where one allows for player development and creativity and the other is about stifling the other teams in desperation to avoid relegation. Teams are also littered with Johnny Foreigner stopping the potential english youth from developing.

England_Fan1979 wrote:Look I'm sorry guys but I am English and have been all of my life.

I have been impressed with Wales and call me old fashioned but I prefer England to play English players. I'm not so bothered about players like Tuilagi, who have come over young. I get annoyed by journeyman South Africans and the likes of Waldrom, who never dreamed of playing for England when they were kids, but suddenly see a chance for international rugby and get it at the expense of an Englishman.

You are allowed to be impressed by other teams. It doesn't mean I don't care about England.

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE

i think you have missed the point guby.

anyway you raise the point at the end. something noone seems to be mentioning.

england have been very brave with selection, something no other team has the bottle to do!!

we have plans, we have big aspirations, as we should and we are not worried about the short term!

Mystir - have you been on the pop or something,

"england have been very brave with selection, something no other team has the bottle to do!!"

we have 19 year olds in our team and squad and 7 players missing - who else would you have chosen last weekend for England. And as for me missing the point and raising the point in the same sentence!!!! what the feck is that all about.

I think you missed the point about the fact that it seems to be a post about englands 'foreign' players rather than praisng the welsh, who as we all know have 'foreign' players as well!

the guy directly argued faletau against tuliga!!!

do i need to say anything else!

the guy directly argued flateau against tuliga!!!

Fair point Mystir but Faletau has been here since he was 5 whilst Tuilagi was an illegal immigrant who on appeal as a teenager (someone puling the right strings) managed to overturn his deprtation - Some minor differences perhaps althoguh in all honesty I hate the residency rule.

Well either this is a nice balanced post from a VERY objective England fan or a rather animated WUM. Either way well done, nice to recieve praise from anyone and just in case, the sign of a good WUM is when you're not sure whether it's really a WUM

You wouldn't be Jeremy Guscott by any chance would you? He's the only Englishman I know who sings our praise 24/7.

Has anyone seen RubyGuby and 1979 in the same room at the same time?

Not suggesting anything of course.

How very dare you Ape

i am happy with the residency law as it is? no quams with it

what i cant be bothered with is people using it in a SERIOUS WAY trying to say one country is better than another(wumming is allowed is suppose, i do it ) when all nations are guilty of it

mystiroakey wrote:i think you have missed the point guby.

anyway you raise the point at the end. something noone seems to be mentioning.

england have been very brave with selection, something no other team has the bottle to do!!

we have plans, we have big aspirations, as we should and we are not worried about the short term!

I agree that England have been brave about the selection with so many uncapped players and was delighted to see the back of Tindall, Easter and Cueto. I just don't think that our young players get the grounding they need for international level. Mako Vunipola looked great in the Junior WC as did Ford and Charlie Matthews and many others. These three have not had a chance with their clubs, except maybe the LV. If they were Irish or Welsh they would be playing regularly in the Celtic league. English rugby is missing the stepping stone to help these young players take the final step. I think this is down to the risk of relegation.

Even the kids that have made it (like Farrell, Wade etc) end up playing safety first attritional rugby in the premiership and not the all round game that took them to the Junior WC Final and very nearly beat the Baby Blacks. I really think (and this does not mean that I am not really English) that we should copy the Welsh and Irish model. We don't need regions but we have to make our clubs select our talented youngsters and get them playing heads up running rugby. The only way to do this is to scrap relegation.

Joking aside wouldn't it be refreshing to some extent if we were able to congratualte each others side more often. Geordiefalcon on here is a great poster and never seems to have any beef with the nationalistic crap. Then again we mustn't lose the edge lads so lets keep it a little nasty and unforgiving on occasion

RubyGuby wrote:England Fan - you now have a taste of what its like to be welsh - Your post is balanced and refreshing and I must say realistic rather than jingoistic. People trying to quote Junior world cups as a barometer of future success are really stretching the correlation. We have had many years of english success at this level due to the sheer volume of players; yet we have North, 1/2p, Cuthbert, Warburton, Prydie, J Davies, Faletau, Williams and Knoyle who have all represented Wales at under 20 recently and who now feature in a successful national team - England have?? Tuilagi who is very lucky to be in the UK and now Farrell - It's hardly a conveyer belt of youth with the upshot being that England resort to the likes of Flutey, Waldrom, Botha, Hape et al, none who I think have represented England at under 20 - Lancaster has been brave and brought in some english youth - give it time and it may well produce dividends, but it needs time and I'm not sure that most english fans and the media are going to allow that

Give me a break Guby! Typical Welsh inflation and arrogance. You produce a roll call of young players like they were sent from on high. Quite how you've got the gall to include anyone other than Sam Warburton in your list of Welsh deities I have no idea! You think that because you've beaten Ireland a couple of times that the Welsh team is somehow trail-blazing NH rugby here for God's sake.

Let's look at the facts for just one brief fleeting moment shall we? Taking it from the start of 2011 to current day, Wales have won precisely sod all, been beaten by Australia and England twice, are ranked 6th in the IRB table (having just moved from 8th after the weekend). You name Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Willaims, Knoyle and Falateau as somehow world stars. Then add the cherry on the turd by slotting young Prydie in there aswell. Someone who's just signed up with Wasps as severe injury cover because he can't get a club game in Wales!

I entirely agree that Falateau, North and Warburton look to be excellent players, but they are as yet pretty much untested at the top level. They haven't beaten a single SH opponent, and been schooled by an England side which you claim to denigrate so fiercely. I could sit here and list of a ream of young English 'talent' as though they were stars of today, and so could the rest of the NH teams!

England_Fan1979 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:i think you have missed the point guby.

anyway you raise the point at the end. something noone seems to be mentioning.

england have been very brave with selection, something no other team has the bottle to do!!

we have plans, we have big aspirations, as we should and we are not worried about the short term!

I agree that England have been brave about the selection with so many uncapped players and was delighted to see the back of Tindall, Easter and Cueto. I just don't think that our young players get the grounding they need for international level. Mako Vunipola looked great in the Junior WC as did Ford and Charlie Matthews and many others. These three have not had a chance with their clubs, except maybe the LV. If they were Irish or Welsh they would be playing regularly in the Celtic league. English rugby is missing the stepping stone to help these young players take the final step. I think this is down to the risk of relegation.

Even the kids that have made it (like Farrell, Wade etc) end up playing safety first attritional rugby in the premiership and not the all round game that took them to the Junior WC Final and very nearly beat the Baby Blacks. I really think (and this does not mean that I am not really English) that we should copy the Welsh and Irish model. We don't need regions but we have to make our clubs select our talented youngsters and get them playing heads up running rugby. The only way to do this is to scrap relegation.

Wrong. Mako Vunipola hasn't had a chance with Saracens because he is currently injured!


Ireland vs Wales was an excellent game of rugby with two teams really going for it. Well done guys.

"that we should copy the Welsh and Irish model. We don't need regions
but we have to make our clubs select our talented youngsters and get
them playing heads up running rugby. The only way to do this is to
scrap relegation."

money is needed in this game- end of story- otherwise rugby will become a dieing sport.

competition,relegation,forign players are needed for money to come into the sport.

the RFU makes great money and in the long run its helping the sport to become more wordly.

people say it goes against the english national game- however same apllies in football- well how are spain so good at the game at club and international level then! it can be acheived

I can see welsh success grates with you chjw and the last time I loked both Argentina and Samoa were in the southern hemisphere - the point is all those young players have played for Wales whilst England have failed to develop players year after year - if the envy blinds you then I'm not going to change that. Similarly if you see the 1 point defeats to SA and France as minor aberrations then I won't convince you of that either. You enjoy your rugby

I think on their day Wales could beat anyone.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoy watching Wales play, I have close connections to Wales so in a way it’s like watching my own team but without the pressure and anger that follows if you lose, I just wish they could win a big game without any controversy or finger pointing.

Yet again what should have been a great victory against Ireland has left a sour taste in the mouths of fellow rugby fans.
Foul play and poor referring decisions (which always goes Wales’s way) have ruined the start of the 6 Nations.

It’s between Wales and France for the title but it’s too close to call.

Foul play and poor referring decisions (which always goes Wales’s way) have ruined the start of the 6 Nations.

It’s between Wales and France for the title but it’s too close to call.


That's better, none of this namby pamby serious stuff from chwbacker above

Lawes, Youngs, Corbisiero, Farrell, Foden.... all these have represented England at age grade, and i'm sure there are more. Wales do it because they have no other alternatives but to blood youngsters. Enough said.

Next?!

Ireland v Wales was an excellent game of rugby and Wales were deserved winners. What more is there to say?!

It would have been better if they had done it without the foul play and the Refs not bottling it, again!

HERSH wrote:It would have been better if they had done it without the foul play and the Refs not bottling it, again!

Agreed

Chjw131 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:England Fan - you now have a taste of what its like to be welsh - Your post is balanced and refreshing and I must say realistic rather than jingoistic. People trying to quote Junior world cups as a barometer of future success are really stretching the correlation. We have had many years of english success at this level due to the sheer volume of players; yet we have North, 1/2p, Cuthbert, Warburton, Prydie, J Davies, Faletau, Williams and Knoyle who have all represented Wales at under 20 recently and who now feature in a successful national team - England have?? Tuilagi who is very lucky to be in the UK and now Farrell - It's hardly a conveyer belt of youth with the upshot being that England resort to the likes of Flutey, Waldrom, Botha, Hape et al, none who I think have represented England at under 20 - Lancaster has been brave and brought in some english youth - give it time and it may well produce dividends, but it needs time and I'm not sure that most english fans and the media are going to allow that

Give me a break Guby! Typical Welsh inflation and arrogance. You produce a roll call of young players like they were sent from on high. Quite how you've got the gall to include anyone other than Sam Warburton in your list of Welsh deities I have no idea! You think that because you've beaten Ireland a couple of times that the Welsh team is somehow trail-blazing NH rugby here for God's sake.

Let's look at the facts for just one brief fleeting moment shall we? Taking it from the start of 2011 to current day, Wales have won precisely sod all, been beaten by Australia and England twice, are ranked 6th in the IRB table (having just moved from 8th after the weekend). You name Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Willaims, Knoyle and Falateau as somehow world stars. Then add the cherry on the turd by slotting young Prydie in there aswell. Someone who's just signed up with Wasps as severe injury cover because he can't get a club game in Wales!

I entirely agree that Falateau, North and Warburton look to be excellent players, but they are as yet pretty much untested at the top level. They haven't beaten a single SH opponent, and been schooled by an England side which you claim to denigrate so fiercely. I could sit here and list of a ream of young English 'talent' as though they were stars of today, and so could the rest of the NH teams!

How are they untested at the top level when they have played in the World Cup and 6 Nations you absolute moron? And he didn't claim they were world stars, he said they had made the transition from the U20s game to the highest level whilst the U20's as a team were not all that great. Valid points made there.

He said that they were now part of a successful Wales team. He said this in relation to the 'lack' of English talent.

My point being that the England team have been, and currently are more successful than the Welsh team. That England have a number of players in that more successful team from the age grade system (see post above); and that some of the players mentioned in this example of young Welsh talent are not actually in the team.

Does that spell it out for you nicely? I certainly don't think there's any need to refer to me as a moron either. If you consult your current edition of acceptable terms for such conditions I think you'll find it's moderately less mentally capable. Something i'm sure you're abundantly equated with.

'This' Wales team got further in the world cup so are pretty much more successful. When you refer to this Wales team, you shouldn't think of them in previous 6 Nations as the changes have been made and they play like a totally different animal. Englands U20 sides are very good, they play like a professional unit and it may have something to do with the high number of junior participants and their exposure to Premiership rugby. I see more from Wales that have made the step-up to the higher levels. Some of Englands do, some fail and most just dissapear. He made some valid points and you took issue with it.

Believing that the World Cup, the 6 Nations, playing against the likes of SA, Aus and France is not the highest level is just morronic. Does that spell it out nicely for you?

England beat 2 of those sides last year you lost to 2.

He said that they were now part of a successful Wales team. Correct We see this as a successful Wales team, if you don't that's fine.

He said this in relation to the 'lack' of English talent. : Where does he say this?

I thought Wales's WC campaign was a little over-hyped TBH. One good performance against SA before blowing it at the end, played well against a poor Fiji side, decent effort to beat Samoa, and one very good performance against Ireland, then they were awful against France (a game they should have won easily despite being a man down so poor were the French).

However they really impressed me on Sunday, both in the attacking play and the fact they were able to win a tight game (something they haven't been very good at recently). Add in the youngsters who look potentially world class, and the future looks very bright for Wales.

For England, it's wayyyyyyyyyyy too early to tell yet, we'll know more after the 6N.

France are, well, France.

I think we can get carried away looking at past form. What is important is what is happening now. I don't think even the blindest of fans could argue that Wales and France don't look the most dangerous teams based on the first weekend. I am happy that England got away with a win but hope to see some rugby in Italy. England will need to step up about 20 levels if they are going to compete with Wales, France and Ireland in their final 3 games. Italy is looking difficult enough as it is.

I think 20 levels is a bit naughty EF, perhpas 15 - watcha think chjw?

England fan 1979 is obviously a Welsh WUM pretending to be English.

Obviously doesn't watch enough AP rugby. Calling the likes of Barritt and Robshaw journeyman is ludicrous.

Also Wales haven't beaten England in the last 3 6 nations matches.

Wales have a good balanced side but I am not too worried about them at Twickenham. They struggle there.

Chelsea - you were 16-0 down against France after 10 minutes - We dominated them for 70 minutes with 14 men and you say we were awful against France - That my friend is one of the most insane comments I've seen on here - Are you Villas Boas?

beshocked,

Hopefully we will be going there on the back of two wins, which will hopefully help confidence etc.

BUT I am still in the minus column when it comes to my visits to Twickenham by some way, in fact I have only been there once when we have one (08) so it will always be a nervous trip there for me.

As I am going again this year hopefully it will be the 2nd time I have seen them win there