The 'New' England +/- Thread

[HERSH]

New era for England 1 game played = 1 win

So give us you thoughts both positive and negative.


Positives

We won.
1st win at Murrayfield since 2004.
Farrell can kick.
Discipline was better.
Morgan can't play for wales.

?????


Negatives

Same Poopie, different team
lack of imagination.
Performance was poor to very poor
Still can't do a rolling maul.
Did we have any wingers on the pitch?

????

[RuggerRadge2611]

HERSH England were the better team on the day, no doubt. However I'm sure you'll be concerned with the way your team played. Had it not been for Dan Parks, I doubt you would have won.

One thing is for Certain I don't think any other 6N team will be intimidated bye either of us.

Woodenspoon for Scotland is a certainty if Robinson does not grow some balls and pick the best players.

[mystiroakey]

i think you have covered the only important one

"Morgan can't play for wales"

(jokes)

[HERSH]

Can't argue with that Rugger

The annoying thing is I think both teams are much better than what we saw yesterday.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Can't argue with that Rugger

The annoying thing is I think both teams are much better than what we saw yesterday.

100% agree, both teams gave us that terrible performance through fear of losing than aspiring to win. Barrit was the stand out player in white IMO, he made some fantastic tackles.

[eirebilly]

One thing is for sure, AR will pick Laidlaw next

Youngs did not impress me at all yesterday, he is very poor when on the back foot. Take him out of the game and England struggle.

[Guest]

New era for England 1 game played = 1 win

So give us you thoughts both positive and negative.


Positives

We won.
1st win at Murrayfield since 2004.
Farrell can kick.
Discipline was better.
Morgan can't play for wales.

?????


Negatives

Same Poopie, different team
lack of imagination.
Performance was poor to very poor
Still can't do a rolling maul.
Did we have any wingers on the pitch?

????

We don't want him now, he looked gash! Actually, we tricked England into picking him by pretending that he was good.

[HERSH]

It was the old Jedi mind trick was it Griff?

I'd let Morgan start against Italy

[ChequeredJersey]

As I have said on another thread, agree with Youngs. The trouble is not playing him would have had us blood yet another player! And even if Care weren't a moron off the pitch, his temperament and decision making for England are hardly ideal

[eirebilly]

Oh he had to play Chequered, thats a given but he is very poor when on the back foot. Italy will be targetting that for sure.

[bedfordwelsh]

Big positive I think yesterday was the discipline, so many times in the WC England were shocking and most probably would have lost if other teams had a kicker.

Attack still look very poor but then again they didn't have to do much yesterday.

[ChequeredJersey]

Positives: we won. We blooded youth. Farrell can kick and Barritt can tackle and they both look like they could play 12 for England. Foden looks lively still. We can defend and when pressure breaks through we can cover defend. We didn't give away penalties. Croft is better than I thought he was. Robshaw can play 6(.5) for England too. No Quins players got injured. If we can play this defensively and win scoring more tries than the opposition, fate wants us to win. Robshaw didnt throw away chances for points on the opposition 22. We will play better next match

[bedfordwelsh]

Jersey,

I didn't think much of Croft yesterday and hardly heard him mentioned, Foden is looking sharp but then again with the amount of time he had to catch those kicks its no wonder.

Youth is the way ahead lets hope the coaches stick with them now

[gowales]

I wouldn't measure a players performance by how many times you hear his name being mentioned especially a blindside flanker.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

One positive not mentioned, Dickson was blooded and showed that he can generate pace in a game, far more than Youngs at the moment anyway.

It was no co-incidence that England suddenly looked a lot livelier once he came on. He bosses a pack better than any England player since Matt Dawson.

[thomh]

Still can't do a rolling maul.

Hang on, we had one absolutely brilliant one right after our try which went about 30 metres before Botha made a big carry and then lost the ball in trying to place it back.

Griff - Bit unfair to say Morgan looked 'gash'. He didn't have long and he made one very good carry from the back of a scrum.

[ChequeredJersey]

Negatives- v little attacking intent. No balance in centres or back row. Neither Farrell nor Barritt is a starting 13. Robshaw is not an openside. We lost the breakdown (though not as badly as made out by some), the scrum (better than expected), the line out, the forwards loose battle and Scotland had the better backs. We almost lost. Youngs was awful. We need more territory and possession against other teams.

One more positive though, we beat Scotland away and now they might select a better side and learn to support, catch, pass and kick and will probably beat one of the other teams and drag them down!

[HERSH]

Still can't do a rolling maul.

Hang on, we had one absolutely brilliant one right after our try which went about 30 metres before Botha made a big carry and then lost the ball in trying to place it back.

Griff - Bit unfair to say Morgan looked 'gash'. He didn't have long and he made one very good carry from the back of a scrum.

That wasn't that great, it was more a case of Scotland not committing too many players to it in the hope that England would co ck it up which they did once Botha broke free.

[gowales]

New era for England 1 game played = 1 win

So give us you thoughts both positive and negative.


Positives

We won.
1st win at Murrayfield since 2004.
Farrell can kick.
Discipline was better.
Morgan can't play for wales.

?????


Negatives

Same Poopie, different team
lack of imagination.
Performance was poor to very poor
Still can't do a rolling maul.
Did we have any wingers on the pitch?

????

We don't want him now, he looked gash! Actually, we tricked England into picking him by pretending that he was good.

How the hell did he look gash? He came on for the last 10 mins.
Maybe you feel that way but Gatland was going to select him if we chose Wales so...

[majesticimperialman]

The posatives yesterday, first we won and that was more important that how we played/style of play.

Second we did not give away penalties like we uses to do when we was in our own half.

We blooded a lot of young players, Hodgson, Barrit, Farrel all played well yesterday.

Regards to Ben Youngs, I think he is starting to get a little complacent, he nearly all ways starts a game and therefore does not seem to put in the performance he used to when he first got selected. So may be Dickson should start the next game and Youngs on the bench.

It will be interesting when Wood comes back, Robshaw and Croft played well yeasterday, Dowson did not play all that well to be honest, would like to see how Morgan goes from the start of the game rather than be given 15/20 minutes off the bench.

All in all we(England got a win yesterday) and is the most important thing.

[HERSH]

True

[miteyironpaw]

I'm sick of everyone praising our defence and discipline. Led by idiots like Mike Catt coming out and saying "Good defence and discipline at important stages of the game was the key". What utter rot.

We missed a dozen tackles in the first half and our defensive line was breached by Scotland almost 20 times. I need to reiterate. By Scotland. Nearly 20 times. Anyone other than Scotland would have put half a dozen tries past us.

So don't let me hear you going on about defence.

Second point, discipline. Aside from a charge down opportunist try we we would have lost this one. And why? Because captain Robshaw gave away a silly penalty under the posts at the first sign of Scotland getting near the line. If Scotland had managed to have more composure in our 22 instead of throwing silly passes or kicking the ball away in optimistic grubbers let's be under no illusions more silly penalties would have ensued. How lucky was Ben Foden that Clancy saw his try saving intervention as a knock on and knock a deliberate knock down? (not saying it was - but many referees would have).

Discipline, defence. Utter rot. How lucky we are this was Scotland, and someone ranked above 10th.

If we're celebrating a luck win in a match we were second best in for most spells against a 10th ranked side, then we're in trouble. England are far too well resourced to set our sights so low.

[gowales]

Isn't it better to give away a penalty than a try?

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

England always seemed as they were comfortable with what they were doing and didnt feel any need to force an expansive game, which is both a positive and a negative. A positive because it showed the whole team had a very good temperament not giving away penalties, compounding errors and not causing the "chaos" that Andy Robinson has supposedly planned for us. Also to be fair when an overlap was on the England team did take advantage of it with Hodgson and Ashton successfully and Robshaw and Ashton unsuccessfully. However it would have been nice to see more of Farrell and Hodgsons footballing ability bringing the exciting back 3 into the game more but there probably isnt a harder place than Murrayfield in February for a new team to try some new combinations and play some real attacking rugby but it would have been nice to see.

[miteyironpaw]

Isn't it better to give away a penalty then a try?

It's better to defend with discipline and concede neither. Which was the totally fallacious claim being made.

[Breadvan]

I was more dissappionted by Engs composure and lack of tempo when we took the lead and times in the 2nd half, Scotland looked like being on the ropes. It works the other way round tho, so fair play to Scotland for coming straight back at us. We had a few overlaps on which neverr came on due to stupid pens and overlaps, so frustrasting! But hey, a wins a win in Edinburgh and these matches are never classics.

[stlowe]

Farrell can kick.

60% success rate, 3 form 5, a decent job for a young lad on debut, but not particularly noteworthy.

[ChequeredJersey]

They were long kicks he missed, out of Flood's range

[Guest]

I've got to agree with the different actors playing the same script interpretation of the match I'm afraid.

It frustrates me that, since 2003, English rugby seems to assess good or bad performances based only on two criteria. The first is defence, as defined strictly as the ratio between tackles made and tackles missed, and the second is this very nebulous thing that gets called Spirit, Fronting Up, Playing for each other etc.

Defence, for me, includes more than just tackling. it should also include things like turnovers, meters conceded by line breaks etc. Fronting up is important, but so are other things like ambition, vision, pace etc.

The only things that Farrell and Barritt did well were the very specific things they were selected to do. Barritt tackled like a demon, but did nothing else. Farrell kicked excellently (against a backdrop of some pretty shameful booing from the crowd) but not much else. At the breakdown, I thought that, compared to the Johnson era, the effort was much improved, though the results of that effort seemed no different.

This 6 nations should be about seeing what works and what doesn't - the brave new era can't start until the RFU have appointed a permanent head coach, so from that perspective maybe things aren't too bad. We've learned that that the Hodgson/Barritt/Farrell combination shouldn't appear in England colours again, and that Robshaw has a great work rate, but can't play 7 at this level. I think that england will end up choosing between Wood and Robshaw at 6, and then bringing in someone like Saull at 7.

Apologies for the Rant!

[stlowe]

They were long kicks he missed, out of Flood's range

The first miss was longish, 45m, but straight in front of the posts, a decent number of international kickers would have got it (I've certainly seen Flood make similar, even further out). I don't blame him for missing, but for his kicking to be in the positives column he would have had to make that one, the three kicks he made were all routine and would have been successes for most half decent kickers.

[doctor_grey]

I've got to agree with the different actors playing the same script interpretation of the match I'm afraid.......
.........Defence, for me, includes more than just tackling. it should also include things like turnovers, meters conceded by line breaks etc. Fronting up is important, but so are other things like ambition, vision, pace etc.

The only things that Farrell and Barritt did well were the very specific things they were selected to do. Barritt tackled like a demon, but did nothing else. Farrell kicked excellently (against a backdrop of some pretty shameful booing from the crowd) but not much else. At the breakdown, I thought that, compared to the Johnson era, the effort was much improved, though the results of that effort seemed no different.

This 6 nations should be about seeing what works and what doesn't - the brave new era can't start until the RFU have appointed a permanent head coach, so from that perspective maybe things aren't too bad. We've learned that that the Hodgson/Barritt/Farrell combination shouldn't appear in England colours again, and that Robshaw has a great work rate, but can't play 7 at this level. I think that england will end up choosing between Wood and Robshaw at 6, and then bringing in someone like Saull at 7.........

I have to agree. And there was a lot more to rant about. Farrell did nothing for me, but he has a long way to go in his career. Hodgson was poor. Barritt was good, but with so little ball, we never got to see him with ball in hand much. Robshaw's performance was kind of like art. Some like it, some won't like it. To me, he worked hard, got dirty as usual, but I am not left feeling he was a difference maker.

[TJ1]

One thing is for sure, AR will pick Laidlaw next

.

I wouldn't bet on it. If Jackson had not been injured Laidlaw would not have been on the bench even.

[gowales]

If Jackson had been fit im sure he would be starting hes a much better player than Laidlaw in my opinion. Laidlaw looks like a 9 playing 10 which he is.

[nobbled]

We've learned that that the Hodgson/Barritt/Farrell combination shouldn't appear in England colours again

No it wasn't blindingly successul, but then first time playing together in white, in Murrayfield, at international level? It is unrealistic to expect instant success with a new look side. We got a win. It was due to luck in part, and bloody hard work.

We may not see that line-up in England colours if Flood and Tuilagi are fit, but until then I think it's our best option. I don't think Hodgson, Farrell or Barritt had a particularly bad game. Hodgson effectively won it with his charge down, Farrell looked good for a new starter, and Barrit's defence was solid.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well, we have Flood back, so it may well be that Charlie is on the bench

[nobbled]

Is that a definite Chequered? Good news, but thought he'd be out for at least one more game internationally.

[ChequeredJersey]

The BBC think so, he's in the EPS and Goode is out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16899092

[overlordofthewest]

Positives
You won, you went to Murrayfield and done it which isnt easy.
The team will now have confidence from the win an in the coach.
Discipline was good.

Negatives
Poor in attack, never looked dangerous.
Scotland were blwdi awful so hard to judge yourself against.

Overall
England won. Surely thats the main point, when teams lose and say its about performance that can only be true for warm up games. Its all about winning in these games and youve won. A lot of work is now needed as Ireland, Wales and France all look better at this stage. This game was the first with the new players and now its out of the way they could settle in and improve, or this could be the best theyve got to give and Italy could be in line for another big scalp.

[nobbled]

Thanks Chequered - that's a positive! I thought he only got part of the game at Leicester so wasn't sure if he'd get the England call so soon.

[ChequeredJersey]

Dickson is out though, unfortunately. Broken a metacarpal... Quins' other Dickson called up as cover

[nobbled]

Youngs has taken a lot of criticism - who would we rather play? Or is it a case of Youngs being the only option?

[ChequeredJersey]

Youngs has taken a lot of criticism - who would we rather play? Or is it a case of Youngs being the only option?

Definitely play Youngs against Italy

[thomh]

We've spent so much of the last 9 years getting rid of players when they had a few bad games and never developing a core of world class guys. We know that Youngs has the talent. If Lancaster thinks he has the mentality to make it then stick with him.

That said, Karl Dickson is excellent for Quins, so if he gets a shot off the bench I'll be very happy.

[Geordie]

What were peoples opinion of Botha...i thought he was everywhere and was far better than i thought he would be....but he still made a few mistakes...

Would you keep him in or bring in Garvey or Attwood etc...

[robbo277]

I thought Botha had a good game and I'd stick with him for at least a couple more games. If Lancaster thought Botha was the best option before the Scotland game, there wasn't enough wrong with his performance to change Lancaster's mind.

I think Garvey might be the option sooner than later and he'll probably tour in the summer, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to give Botha the whole tournament to show what he can do.

[gnollbeast]

Positives:

England were rubbish
England will get destoryed by Wales, Ireland and France
England can't score tries except chargedowns
England will get worse

Negatives:

Wales only get to play them once this year

[RubyGuby]

We played them 3 times last year Gnoll and lost 2 so best to calm down a bit - I think we beat them on aggregate over the 3 though - Night night sleep tight in Neef Neef Neef Neef

[TJ1]

If Jackson had been fit im sure he would be starting hes a much better player than Laidlaw in my opinion. Laidlaw looks like a 9 playing 10 which he is.

Having watched laidlaw play for Edinburgh he is a far far better player than Jackson - his interplay with Blair and the variety of his game was great - and a great reader of the game.

Like too many of scotladns players trying too hard to impress especially as he only had a few minutes. nearest any scot came to a try tho

[thomh]

We played them 3 times last year Gnoll and lost 2 so best to calm down a bit - I think we beat them on aggregate over the 3 though - Night night sleep tight in Neef Neef Neef Neef

I'm afraid England edged the aggregate score by 1 point, though I'm not sure that it's a statistically significant amount.

[Gatts]

It was a case of who played worse.

Nothing new from England against a lamentable schoolboy side (Rennie/Evans/Gray and DENTON aside) who fecked up so much ball that it turned into a villagio suck fest.

Parks should be summarily binned and ffs how about playing pick and drive before going wide...just once, it aint rocket science. Scot attack was so predictable i was almost 100% in my predictions of who was going to attack where. if it wasn't for Laidlaw and a few others Scotland would have been torn a new haggis hole

And Eng have nought to shout about, only a real mug woudl celebrate that as anything other than a messy win. A decent club side woudl have beaten Scotland by more and lets face it a charge down try does not a summer make.

i predict Eng 4th if they are lucky.

England will be found out by the Welsh backs if not before in Rome by a set of Italian forwards who may just have their meatballs for anti pasti

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