What's you're definition of ring generalship?

This is a topic I had with a friend of mine the other day. We were talking about the greatest heavyweight ring generals of all time and we agreed on most names like Ali, Johnson, Tunney, and Holmes but when I mentioned Marciano he protested, laughed in my face and asked me if I was loco?

But I always saw Marciano as someone who made the opposition fight a fight that they weren't comfy with that got him results.I know this will raise a few eyebrowes, but think about it. He never allowed his opponents to fight from their comfort zone, he set the pace and had a way of turning it into a rough, inside fight That's the definition of ring generalship.

Alas I was laughed at again and told that Rocky never had the skill set to be considered a ring general, so now I am confused. Is ring generalship not using the ring and your opponent to dominate the fight??

For me you have a point one two, surely the very definition of ring generalship is making your opponents fight the fight you want to fight and as you have alluded to the Rock was a master at this, as attested to by Archie Moore who pretty much said the exact same as this on the back of fighting Rocky.

Rocky to me was an aggressive ring general as was Dempsey as was Langford but I have been told that only defensive minded fighters or counter punchers can earn the title ring general.

I'd see ring generalship as controlling the action. That means forcing your opponent to fight a fight that benefits you and not him.

But saying that Ali, who many agree was a great ring general, fought Forman by laying on the ropes and allowing Forman to fight HIS fight. Ali never forced him to do anything. Those tactics could not have benefited Ali as he was a sitting target. So the term ring general does not apply here.

Agree with rowley here. For me, ring generalship is making the opponent fight the fight that you want to fight (and when you want to fight it). That largely means controlling the pace of the fight to suit yourself: attacking when you're ready, and not when forced, or defending onslaughts by slowing the opponent down rather than running/being hunted/being pressured into making mistakes.

I think Ali's rope-a-dope is a bit of an anomaly in terms of ring generalship. Obviously I've seen fighters control things well on the ropes and attack in bursts, but rarely do you see someone being so devoted to such a strategy. It seems like Ali made a calculated gamble to let George do exactly what he wanted in terms of throwing bombs precisely because he figured he could take the punishment for longer than George's physical endurance would last. In that sense they were both fighting the fight that they wanted to fight, but Ali had the physical attributes and mental willpower to carry his game plan out successfully.

I wouldnt really agree on Marciano. Not really what my own idea of ring generalship is which tend to include ring smarts, adaptability, tactical awareness, versatlilty, exploiting strength/weaknesses, controlling range/tempo capitalising on opportunities etc.

For me Marciano was a fighter that applied intense pressure and wore his opponents down with this formula. He certainly imposed himself and his style on his opponents but I wouldnt really say he was a top ring general under my kind of definition in an overall sense.

Ring generalship in my opinion is who is controlling the pace of the fight. It can also be making your opponent look silly by making them miss.

Very interesting viewpoint Onetwo, had never really considered Marciano to have good ring generalship but when you think about it almost all of his fights were fought on his terms not his opponents. Duran and Chavez were also fabulous at doing this.

For there has to be an element of adaptability and variation- Chavez and Duran certainly were great fighters- but when faced with the certain slick boxers- Whitaker, Leonard, Benitez etc they were unable to either draw them into their fight or adapt a different game plan to counter their opponents, and I guess that would apply to Rocky too, though his intensity worked out 100% of the time for him, but against Walcoot first time round it didn't do so well for the first 12 rounds or so.
Generalship is about controlling pace, range, tactics, adapabilty, inteligence, but it's pretty hard to define.

I'd agree - or I feel that we need to re-define and calibrate what "generalship" is.

If I had to define it as a single word - I'd use awareness.

Awareness of the ring, awareness of your space, awareness of time, awareness of your opponent.

Marciano's opening salvo is a perfect example. Decent head movement stops him from taking too many flush shots that would push him back. Bulling forward encourages his opponent to retreat to the ropes. Ducking low encourages his opponent to lower their hands to hit him with hooks, at which point a heavy overhand right is already on its way. Oppo's hands come back up, so follow with left to body. Their head will be moving now, so land punches to the gloves, arms, shoulders - sacrifice accuracy to freeze your opponent - lets face it - a guy could be spraying bullets from the most inaccurate gun in the world - but 1 bullet could kill you so you're still staying put.

That to me, has to be ring generalship.

Equally Duran. Constant, unremitting pressure that could draw a guy like SRL - as talented a guy as ever laced up a pair - and force SRL to do something totally alien to him.

In sport - you only need to be good enough to get the job done. Jeffries took the mother and father of all pastings from Corbett for almost 20 rounds - but he was able to wear Corbett down and stop him in the end.

That is the mark of a top ring general - to find a way to win.

Incidentally, its what the likes of Tito Trinidad wasn't. Great fighter, sure - HOWEVER - against DLH - couldn't get near him after being roundly outboxed - and something similar happened against B-hop.

Same could be said of Pascal. Tailor made to beat Dawson and tailor made to lose to B-hop. After his salvo of body shots failed - he had nothing left.

So in summary - yes - Marciano and Duran were both excellent Ring Generals - OR - they were very good at applying their own brand of skill - that we haven't yet defined as ring generalship.

Trinidad and Pascal aren't top ring Generals - although Pascal is young.

Adaptability is pretty key to my definition of ring generalship and for this reason it is hard for me to describe Rocky as a 'ring general'. Devising and implementing a successful game plan is certainly a part of being a general in the ring, and in this respect Rocky is amongst the best in the history of the sport. However, a ring general should be capable of changing their plans to reflect the ebb and flow of the battle they are engaged in and in this respect Rocky seems to be rather more deficient. Despite his lack of variation, one point that is certainly worthy of consideration is Rocky's ability to switch gears in fights he was struggling in. Whilst this could be explained as simply an expression of his spirit and will to win, it could be reasoned that in controlling his own pace and upping it when required, rocky was displaying general like qualities.

Top point about changing plans - and one that many of today's boxers are sadly deficient in.

In major fights over the last few years - I can think of Marquez changing tactic in Pacquiao 1, Hopkins in Pascal 1, Calzaghe in Kessler and Peterson against Khan.

Equally - I can think of several superfights - Haye-Klitschko, Abrahamvanyone where the defeated fighter has been utterly and incomprehensibly unable to change their gameplan - even when their gameplan is failing utterly.

Equally Duran. Constant, unremitting pressure that could draw a guy like SRL - as talented a guy as ever laced up a pair - and force SRL to do something totally alien to him.

I think that had more to do with Duran winning a psychlogical victory befrore the bell rang- Leonard made a consious decision before the fight started to try and beat Duran at his own game, and he came pretty damn close. Next time around he showed his own ring generalship and fought a way more sensible fight.

ring generalship is dominating your opponant for however long the fight lasts. Mayweather v Gatti perfect exarmple.

Alexis Arguello was 1 of the best until he met Pryor. Alexis used to come out and study his opponant from the off and then pick up the pace and technique. Pryor offered him something he had never faced before. Shots coming in from all angles and relentless too.