Reform Regional Rugby - New Update

Thanks to the all of you who have signed the petition since we last sent out an update.


A lot has happened in the last few weeks and momentum is definitely with the campaign. Here are the highlights of recent developments:


* The WRU has effectively pre-empted the review it commissioned by PriceWaterhouseCoopers into the ‘sustainability’ of the regional set-up by stating that a new model – with some regions ’downgraded’ to development status – is under consideration. This presents both a threat and an opportunity: an opportunity for us to put forward alternative suggestions, but a threat that the WRU take the simple option of cutting costs by reducing revenues for one or more region.


* The Blues, with impeccable timing, have announced that they would like to play some of their games at The Arms Park, Sardis Road, or ‘somewhere else outside Cardiff’.


* The Clubs have started to demand change themselves. The Mid District Union of the WRU has written to Roger Lewis asking for a meeting to discuss the possibility of establishing a professional, regional rugby side within the areas of the Mid District.


* Politicians representing a wider area of the Valleys have also come on board with the campaign – nine MPs have written an open letter to the WRU requesting a meeting to discuss the economic, social and sporting impact of the regional structure.


* Alternative options for reform and supporting business plans are under construction and will be presented to the WRU on March 31st. These plans will also be presented for public consultation.


* Media coverage continues to grow, including last night’s rather feeble ‘Week In, Week Out’ programme: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01bs438/Week_In_Week_Out_07_02_2012/


* Wales home article here: http://waleshome.org/2012/02/regional-rugby-time-for-change/


Keep the Faith

I sent Owen Smith an email. Tell him to read it or else... respond saying that he got it.

I look forward to the Ponty Vs Neath match.

On that week in week out programme Roger lewis said he had asked over a year ago for someone to put a proposal and business plan on the table for a Valleys region but nothing has happened since. Is this the option that you are putting on the table on 31 March???

I still can't see where this 5th Region would be set up that would appease all the so called dis-enfranchised valley people unless there is major investment in a new stadium.

Jay - would you accept an extra region in the North?

I have to say I struggle to see why or how another South Wales team is the way forward.

red,

For me if we have a 5th then it has to be up North.

From the outside looking in, thats what I think Bedford.

IMO a valleys team would only help some of the dis-enfranchised fans.

A complete overall is whats needed not adding another superclub/region to the mess.

Hasn't Lewis said that if a new region is formed (as in a 5th) then it would be in the North? I'm pretty sure I read that quote but not sure where.

If changes happen in the south it'll have to be a start from scratch. Would the short term problems be worth any possible future benefits?

Kingshu wrote:IMO a valleys team would only help some of the dis-enfranchised fans.

A complete overall is whats needed not adding another superclub/region to the mess.

Spot on there Kingshu. People talk about 'the valleys' like it's one place. Everyone knows that rugby in Wales is based on inter-town and inter-village rivalry. Why then do you think that asking towns and villages to come together, shoulder to shoulder, would work in the Valleys? It hasn't worked elsewhere (although I can only speak of my region the Dragons and I know that people from outside Newport do go but not in their droves (Bedfordwelsh is a good example)).

There are rivalries that exist 'up there' too. Wherever you base a valleys team you'd always get other valleys towns feeling disenfranchised because it's not in there town. Would Pontypridd fans travel to Ebbw Vale if the team was based there. Or vice versa? Don't forget that valleys travel may look close on a map but travelling across the valleys is not so easy. Valleys are there because there are mountains in between! It's certainly not easy like going from Newport to Cardiff on the M4, or Cardiff to Swansea. I was at a school in Bargoed this morning (Caerphilly). It took my about 40 minutes to get to Pontypool and they're only about 13 miles apart, and this was at 10am. I just don't think that a region in Ponty or Ebbw Vale or Merthyr etc would automatically attract the support of everyone in the valleys because the same barriers would be in place as they are now, i.e. town rivalry, perceived travel problems or not willing to travel, and grievance because it is 'not in my town.'

Kingshu wrote:IMO a valleys team would only help some of the dis-enfranchised fans.

A complete overall is whats needed not adding another superclub/region to the mess.

Although you could take a stance on it that the north is used to not having top flight rugby up there, and as such have managed to keep their opinions on regional rugby to a gumble, where as the dis-enfrancised have been used to having top flight rugby in teh past, and maybe giving them a region to either support or not would cause them to hush down a little. Either it will be a success and all will be happy, or it will fail, and they can be told it failed and you have no right to complain anymore. Personally in an ideal world I would like to see a Valleys region and a North region, and see both of them being a success. But money is tight and the WRU are tighter.

I think that if you were to have a Valleys Region then it would have to be at the 'Heads of the Valleys' around Merthyr way.

Merthyr itself has never been associated with having a big rugby team so there might not be the rivalries there are now.

Bedford the rivalries wouldn't come from the rugby teams but from the parochial nature of the valleys and Wales as a whole - ie the my towns better than your town/I won't support a team from the next town over mentality.

So I'd see the same amount of problems with a region based in Merthyr as anywhere else - added to the fact that generally regions were based where the money men were. Merthyr might have a rich benefactor standing by to invest in the team - but they might not, in which case the region would be based somewhere else (even North Wales maybe)

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think that if you were to have a Valleys Region then it would have to be at the 'Heads of the Valleys' around Merthyr way.

Merthyr itself has never been associated with having a big rugby team so there might not be the rivalries there are now.

Totally agree, this is what i've said before. Ponty is a stones thorw from Cardiff, if there were to be a Valleys team (can't see happening) i'd base in Merthyr or Aberdare. Both can be accessed via the heads of Valley road and opens nearby by Breconshire rugby fans to go and watch a agme

Priest,

What I was trying to say that if the 'New' Region was set up in say Ponty which is where a lot of posters seem to think it should be, then why would that attract fans from Ebbw, Tredegar etc anymore than the Dragons do now?

Setting one up in Merthyr and going completely away from any 'old' club rivalries might or might not work but if it did go ahead (which don't think it would) then this for me would seem better than setting one up in Ponty based at Sardis Rd

I agree Bedford - I think I'm just being cynical in that I can't see a 5th region happening anywhere in the valleys coz there's been no-one sticking their hand up with serious money. And I think as a result it wouldn't really matter where in the valleys the region was situated as it would still face the same problems (to a lesser or greater degree) ie getting enough money to make it viable, road links between the major towns in the region, parochial inter-town rivalry and disillusioned fans from the other towns.

But that's just my being cynical - In an ideal world there should always have been a region in the valleys, based at the heads of the valleys promoting the game in parts of Brecon and Powys, keeping the huge amounts of talented rugby players from the valleys in the team and uniting the whole region.

If there's going to be a new regional side, it needs to be a North Wales team. Whether Ponty / Rhondda Valley fans like it or not, the Blues are their regional side. If they don't want to support them, that's their problem.

My opinions haven't changed since the last discussion. The Blues and Dragons need to drop Cardiff and Newport from their names and all the regions should put some serious consideration into playing some of their lower key fixtures in other grounds of the concerned regional stretch. How wouldn't that help appeal to a wider variety of fans?

For this reason I think it's great that the Ospreys played an LV= fixture in Bridgend and that the Blues are considering lending some attention to Sardis Road and other areas.

Agreed 100%, a fifth region really should be based in North Wales. If we're going to get opportunist groups of fans seizing increasingly small regions then we may as well bin the regional system altogether and revert back to the clubs, that which is not in our best interests imo.

How's RGC 1404 getting along?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:If there's going to be a new regional side, it needs to be a North Wales team. Whether Ponty / Rhondda Valley fans like it or not, the Blues are their regional side. If they don't want to support them, that's their problem.

You sound just like a friend I have. You don't seriously expect the valley's to just accept the Cardiff Blues without the Blues changing do you?? It's going to have to be a working relationship.

If that is your approach I have to say it is very selfish.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:If there's going to be a new regional side, it needs to be a North Wales team. Whether Ponty / Rhondda Valley fans like it or not, the Blues are their regional side. If they don't want to support them, that's their problem.

Just typical Cardiff arrogance this sounds like

Luckless is not a Cardiff or blues fan.

Griff wrote:Luckless is not a Cardiff or blues fan.

Ok I stand corrected. Its still a stupid attitude to take though. Like saying to a Wales rugby fan if Wales got shut down as a team. England represent you now...get on with it

For me I don't think Wales need another region. For one, I don't think the options proposed would be sustainable. A Valley's team would work in the short term, with fans from that part flocking in to see their team. But like the regions now fans get bored. The 'new' regions in North Wales or the Valley's would soon end up the way the 'super' clubs are like now, low crowds with a lack of investment to sign star players. Yes a development region is an option, but say you were to put that in the Valley's, Ponty, Merthyr or Ebbw Vales fans IMO would not go there in their thousands to watch them. I'm sure most would rather go and watch their respective home town club teams, which are actually at a decent standard anyway, with a development region not really a step up from the premiership (Welsh). For me the biggest problem for the regions is that fact that they haven't had big and consistant success in the Heinekin cup. The teams that attract the largest crowds, such as Leinster and Munster, are always reaching the latter stages of the cup. This is what brings the money, fans and players in. The Blues, Osprey's, Dragons and Scarlets do not achieve consistant success in the biggest competition, therefore, why would people go and watch the games they play.

Success on the pitch brings success of it. If Blues were playing every season in the latter stages of European competition, playing a brand of rugby that is attractive to watch, they would average around 13-14,000 a season, because people would be prepared to travel and pay £20 to watch a successful team play attractive running rugby, that is what the fans want. Anothe region will not improve anything i'm afraid. Why spend £10-15 on a development region when many could travel 15 mins down the road to watch a game at a higher standard with better players for a little more of £5 more. If the WRU want to improve regional rugby, success has to be achieve on the pitch before it can be successful off it. attractive brand of rugby=bigger crowds. bigger crowds=more money, more money=better players, better players=successful rugby team. That's my opinion anyway, I'm sure people will think i'm way off the mark

I really don't want to see another region added to the numbers. I still believe the ideal arrangement was to have four representative sides based in Wrexham, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport. Those are the 4 major centres of population and 4 seems to be a potentially sustainable number of professional sides. Furthermore the players and staff should have been centrally contracted.

That is now a highly unlikely scenario so we are left with the issues as I see it which are:

1. Lack of funds
2. Low attendances
3. Disenfranchised fans.

It seems to me that all 3 of these issues could be solved by giving enough people enough of a reason to go to regional matches. 1st port of call - the Emerald isle to see what we can do better. 2nd - from the bottom up the regions must look at getting their people out and around the regions in a big way, drumming up support and making connections.

Lastly I'd just like to say how much it made my skin crawl to see Stuart Gallacher on the Week in Week out programme. That man is a disgrace and nearly finished off Llanelli RFC/The Scarlets for good. All of the improvements that have happened at the Scarlets have happened since he left. His is an odious legacy of overspending and awful - and I mean APPALLING recruitment. It makes me shudder that this man now represents the regions in their relationship with the WRU. Thank grud he's out of the Scarlets!

martyr_94
The problems of the fish bowl should not be used as a excuse to not have a North Wales region.

cymro,

I just can't see a north wales region working. Will they actually get the crowd numbers to stay afloat. They would probably have receive quite some funding from the WRU to last the long term. I like the concept and if you said to me you had to add another region, I would create a north wales region, but I don't think the project would be a sustainable solution and I think the problems that regions face is that they simply aren't achieving the success to draw in the crowds.

martyr_94
Full house at the U20s tonight- The South Wales crowd problem should not be used as a guide to how many would support a North Wales region.
It's easy for you to say that a North Wales region is not needed when you have four regions on your doorstep but what about the rest of us who regularly have to travel down South to watch a match.
The four current regions are funded so why on earth should a third of the population not be entitled to a cut of the cake.
The problem we have is that the four current regions are not sustainable due to the lack of support from fans but up in the North the political nonsense does not exist and also don't forget that there is no major televised sport up here that would be in direct competition for sponsorship with the North Wales region.

Cymro,

Would you be happy to have a development region in north wales. I understand your point totally I was just trying to make the point that I believe success on the pitch contributes to the success off it. The WRU ballsed up the forming of the regions, the north should have had one right from the beginning. The U20's game was a great success tonight, and the facilities in Colwyn Bay looked first class. Posing this question: Would North Wales people happily turn up week in week out for the North Wales regional development team. I'm not trying to come across as arrogant like the north shouldn't get anything, nothing like that at all, I just don't know whether it could be sustainable, because if the Osprey's and Blue's are struggling for crowds, how would North Wales fare in the same position but with arguably a weaker side?.

martyr_94
The Ospreys and Blues are struggling because of the history they stubbornly refuse to go and watch them and of course you knew that anyway.
Would the North Walians go and watch a development side!! Yes many would but would it be a packed house week in week out then probably not but I have no doubt that a genuine North Wales region would be far better supported than the Blues or Ospreys.
North Wales needs a region and when we have one then it can only mean we have a stronger Wales.

This is almost a glass half empty/half full argument. With the right product and marketing (yuck, did I just type that?) could any side be successful in the right place - bear in mind that there are a lot of people living in North-East Wales. Do we continue to be pessimistic or can we take a different perspective which is that there is room for improvement?

Totallybiasedscarlet Marketing is something that the WRU have a problem with there was very little advertising regarding the U20s playing in Eirias park most of it was done by word of mouth

TBH looking at it I am all for a North Wales region. I was simply posing the question to other people. Like I said a north wales region should have happened from the very beginning. Like Totally biased said there is a large number of people in the north that do not see any rugby on a daily basis live. So I am of the view of spreading rugby throughout Wales, because like you said Cymro, it will benefit Wales as a whole. I remeber when Robin Mcbride talked to a group of us saying how he had to move down to South Wales due to there being a lack of opportunities for rugby players in North Wales. A North Wales region will benefit people like Mcbride and overall benefit the Welsh team. I agree about the clubs as well, the bitterness is still rife in South Wales so I agree, North Wales shouldn't be cut off from the great joys of rugby

Cymroglan wrote:Totallybiasedscarlet Marketing is something that the WRU have a problem with there was very little advertising regarding the U20s playing in Eirias park most of it was done by word of mouth

Didn't know they were playing there until I read the match preview earlier tonight

The largest crowds for all Welsh club games is local derbies, playing the Italians and the Scots don't bring in the crowds hence if we had another region there would be 8 extra money spinning derby matches, To do this our teams may have to quit the 7's tour so these boys play in an extended league.

I have to laugh at certain comments on here, where is the money coming from when their club is being funded by the WRU. The cake has to be divided up between 5 instead of 4 but the next time (if it happens) we should give the new region time to establish itself.

If we are to stay with 4 regions I would prefer a complete overhaul of the regional structure Newport and Cardiff is one stop on the train,why not merge the teams and have another region say the heads of the valley also Swansea and Llanelli is a similar distance apart i.e., have a North region. I know the Newport guys would support their team in Cardiff, also the Scarlets could sell their ground for houses and travel down the road to Swansea, sorry, Scarlets don't own the ground they already taken the money from Stradey.

Just a suggestion but self interest will prevent change, it may be forced at some point when the money men see there is no growth or any chance of them making money.

I think it is the major problem We still suffer the hangover of the old club days. We could have maintained the local rivalries by keeping the old clubs (but semi-pro only) and creating a new representative tier that they could feed into. From my perspective if Llanelli had been amalgamated with Neath and Swansea into a superclub/region I'd have found it really difficult to support that, but if those clubs fed a West Wales representative XXII then I could get behind that in the same way that supporting Wales is an extension of my Scarlets allegiance. I remember some old West vs East trials and I always wanted west to win. It was a natural and easy allegiance. Being bedfellows with your nearest and sometimes most fierce rivals however is really hard. Clearly this goes some way to explaining how Neath, Bridgend, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale, Pooler and other fans feel about the regions.

Unfortunately what an upheaval it would be now to try and fix things. I really think we need to examine the Leinster/Munster model and aim to build bridges across the board. It is definately time for a team up north. 1st step is a Semi-Pro side in the Prem.

martyr_94
We both see the bigger picture as any fan of Wales would.
We are already punching above our weight but just imagine what we could do if we searched for players from every corner of Wales

glamorganalun wrote: also the Scarlets could sell their ground for houses and travel down the road to Swansea, sorry, Scarlets don't own the ground they already taken the money from Stradey.

No Carmarthenshire County Council own it - your point being? Might I point out that the Ospreys also rent their ground as do the Blues.

For longer than I care to remember it's been my dream to have a premiership/regional side in North Wales but more often than not I was shot down for being over ambitious.
But it's encouraging these days that many if not most now realise that it's something that would be beneficial to all of Wales.

Cymroglan wrote:martyr_94
We both see the bigger picture as any fan of Wales would.
We are already punching above our weight but just imagine what we could do if we searched for players from every corner of Wales

George North.

Just one addition from me before I go - we should take a leaf out of the Kiwi's book on junior rugby structure. What a production line of talent they have, and a population that's not much bigger than Wales. I accept they have the added benefit of drawing in other players from Fiji etc but their approach to junior rugby is 1st class. Our academies are doing well but we need a coherent strategy across the board involving clubs, schools and academies.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

No Carmarthenshire County Council own it - your point being? Might I point out that the Ospreys also rent their ground as do the Blues.

To clarify, Cardiff Blues rent 2 grounds; CCS and the Arms Park.

I thought there was already a team for North Wales? They're called something generic like RG14 - was talking about it last night with some fans at the Blues match. Perhaps the WRU will just develop that and do some reorganising down South?

totallybiasedscarlet and glamorganalun have both hinted at it - the way to evolve regional rugby would be to create four regions of Wales - North, South, East & West, that are aligned and associated with the national team, not the clubs of the past.

Crowds would increase - many rugby fans would go and watch more than one of the regions - the structure would attract proper corporate sponsorship, not reliance on tin-pot local benefactors - money could be saved by sharing 'management resources' and 'laptop analysts' and all that stuff.

It would be brilliant - a perfect solution - and would almost certainly improve standards at European level - where we remain largely irrelevant.

Just trying to squeeze in a 'valleys' time is pointless tinkering. So we'll have 5 mediocre teams - what good is that?

Either do it properly or just let it bumble along like it is.

+1 but should have been done in 2003

Is that ever going to happen though? Would the Scarlets and Blues be suddenly willing to 'cast aside their history' to make proper regions when they weren't when they were first set up?

As Griff says above, the valleys' shape dictates that travel is easiest one end to the other and that cross valley travel is difficult. This fact led to the creation of large towns at Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. I share the view that it is unlikely that a 5th region in the south would be successful and that it does not make sense to re-locate any of the existing regions away from their present population centres. An important part of the enjoyment of a match has always been the after-match chat over a pint and I am convinced that subsidised buses and trains timed to allow this would be a magnet for many fans who are not prepared to risk the drink/drive laws and who now watch their region on the tele with a can and perhaps a later stroll to meet their mates at a club or pub.

Thinking about the Dragons earlier, with Brew leaving for Biarritz, Charteris and Tovey all heading out, would Dragons fans welcome a merging of the Blues and Dragons, and likewise Blues fans. As a Blues fan, I would welcome it. If Blues are planning a clear out next season with people like Tito, Rush and Filise all going, people like Lydiate and Faletau may want to stay if you had the majority of the Welsh team playing. I think it could work with more fans at games, half at Rodney parade, half at CCS/CAP. What do you think? I would welcome it.

martyr_94 wrote:Thinking about the Dragons earlier, with Brew leaving for Biarritz, Charteris and Tovey all heading out, would Dragons fans welcome a merging of the Blues and Dragons, and likewise Blues fans. As a Blues fan, I would welcome it. If Blues are planning a clear out next season with people like Tito, Rush and Filise all going, people like Lydiate and Faletau may want to stay if you had the majority of the Welsh team playing. I think it could work with more fans at games, half at Rodney parade, half at CCS/CAP. What do you think? I would welcome it.

Martyr,

Not a hope in hell.

I am an Ebbw fan who finally took the jump to follow my Region because it is my Region, I still have some strong feelings about the way it was done, the way they don't play games around Gwent and to a smaller degree Newport still being the prominent name, though most genuine fans now refer to them as the Dragons.

However, as an Ebbw fan I have no affinity with Cardiff what so ever and would never accept or support Cardiff Blues as my Region representing Gwent.

Beford Let's say for argument sake that the WRU decided to move the Dragons up North would it be easier for you to support a re-branded North Wales Dragons than see them merging with the Blues ?

With Charteris, Tovey and Brew all leaving the Dragons and in light of Roger Lewis's recent comments about the possibility of some regions having different 'relationships' with the WRU, I'm beginning to wonder: do the players know something we don't?