Reform Regional Rugby - New Update

First topic message reminder :

Thanks to the all of you who have signed the petition since we last sent out an update.


A lot has happened in the last few weeks and momentum is definitely with the campaign. Here are the highlights of recent developments:


* The WRU has effectively pre-empted the review it commissioned by PriceWaterhouseCoopers into the ‘sustainability’ of the regional set-up by stating that a new model – with some regions ’downgraded’ to development status – is under consideration. This presents both a threat and an opportunity: an opportunity for us to put forward alternative suggestions, but a threat that the WRU take the simple option of cutting costs by reducing revenues for one or more region.


* The Blues, with impeccable timing, have announced that they would like to play some of their games at The Arms Park, Sardis Road, or ‘somewhere else outside Cardiff’.


* The Clubs have started to demand change themselves. The Mid District Union of the WRU has written to Roger Lewis asking for a meeting to discuss the possibility of establishing a professional, regional rugby side within the areas of the Mid District.


* Politicians representing a wider area of the Valleys have also come on board with the campaign – nine MPs have written an open letter to the WRU requesting a meeting to discuss the economic, social and sporting impact of the regional structure.


* Alternative options for reform and supporting business plans are under construction and will be presented to the WRU on March 31st. These plans will also be presented for public consultation.


* Media coverage continues to grow, including last night’s rather feeble ‘Week In, Week Out’ programme: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01bs438/Week_In_Week_Out_07_02_2012/


* Wales home article here: http://waleshome.org/2012/02/regional-rugby-time-for-change/


Keep the Faith

Why not scrap regional rugby all together, and replace it with a provincial system.

Have 3 professional teams. We accept that each region has a minimum of 16 home games a season then these games could all be rotated around each area.

East Wales - Games to be rotated between Sardis Road, Rodney Parade. and the Arms Park. with the West Wales derby at the Millenium stadium.
Each regional team brings out 3 jerseys a year, so Blue and Black, White and Black, and Amber and Black. Depending on which ground the teams play in.

West Wales - Games to be rotated between Park Y Scarlets, Liberty stadium and the Brewery field.
Each regional team brings out 3 jerseys a year, so White and Red, White and Black, and White and Blue. Depending on which ground the teams play in.


North Wales - Games to be rotated between Park Erias (Colwyn Bay), and Wrexham Race Course ground.

Each of the 4 regions is given £3.5m per season, while the Welsh premiership is given £1.2m, so we have £15.2M to play with.

You could give each of the 3 professional teams, £4m each, while giving the other £3.2m (£100k each) to a 30 team semi professional regional league below it.

West Wales
1 Llanelli
2 Carmarthen
3 Llandovery
4 Haverfordwest
5 Swansea
6 Neath
7 Aberavon
8 Bridgend
9 Maesteg
10 Bonymaen

East Wales
1 Newport
2 Cross Keys
3 Caerphilly
4 Ebbw Vale
5 Pontypool
6 Abergavenny
7 Cardiff
8 Pontypridd
9 Merthyr Tydfil
10 Brecon

North Wales
1 Aberystwyth
2 Newtown
3 Wrexham
4 Colwyn Bay
5 Rhyl
6 Connahs Quay
7 Bangor
8 Llangefni
9 Bala
10 Pwlheli

Teams to play each other in a regional division comperising of 18 games, then once thats complete, the teams are split up into 3 national divisions of 10, based on their final standings.
So the top 3 teams of each division, and the best placed 4th team would form the 10 teams for the National Premiership.

The national premiership would be another 18 games so teams would have a total of 36 games to fit into a 42 week season.

After giving it some thought that seems to be the best and most affordable way of reorganising Welsh rugby, we move the new regions around so all fans get access and we remove the local tags the regions have.

If only we had a time machine to go back before 2003. I honestly can't see any major changes happening now

If this whole reform doesn't work would the WRU ever think about redrawing the boundaries of the regions?

Instead of cutting the funding of the Dragons should the WRU increase their catchment area?
And if Ponty don't want anything to do with Cardiff then... expand the Dragons area into the Valleys??

A new fanbase, option for the use of a different stadium and potentially more sponsors.

No need to change the Dragons, maybe just a name change to the Gwent-Valley Dragons?

Just a thought. Bad idea?

Cymroglan wrote:Beford Let's say for argument sake that the WRU decided to move the Dragons up North would it be easier for you to support a re-branded North Wales Dragons than see them merging with the Blues ?

No,

If that happened then Gwent would't have a Region so I wouldn't follow Regional rugby,I would still however follow Ebbw and support Wales.

Which is why exactly IMO regional rugby just doesn't work, just too many people to please and unfortunately not everyone can be satisfied.

martyr_94 wrote:Which is why exactly IMO regional rugby just doesn't work, just too many people to please and unfortunately not everyone can be satisfied.

You're right, but we don't have regional rugby anyway, not in the true sense. Never have. Owen Smith was quite right when he said that we should be honest about it and call a spade, a spade.
What we have is clubs dressed up as supposed regions who all appear to be in financial dire straights. It's clear what many posters on here seem to forget is the concept of money when they come up with their fantastical ideas of reforming the structure or redrawing the regional lines, not that the present ones are particularly clear.

All this nonsense talk of having a North Wales region is madness. We can't afford what we have at present without risking millions, year on year, on a venture in an area that has never naturally developed a strong rugby team of its own in over 100 years. If we had tons of cash then yes, do it, but we haven't. We have to concentrate our efforts and resources in the hotbed which as in France is in the south of the country.

My fears are from listening to Roger the dodger and Gallagher the other night is that Newport GD are going to take a hit. If that happens I won't like it one bit. I only hope a backer can come in to take back the 50% from the WRU.

Cardiff Dave
The Southern problem should not be used as a excuse for not having a North Wales region.
Just because the people of Cardiff cant be bothered to travel from one end of the city to the other then the Blues have to change stadiums how ridiculous is that. There is a strong rugby culture in North Wales but the WRU have ignored it.
You have a extremely selfish attitude.

Cymroglan wrote:Cardiff Dave
The Southern problem should not be used as a excuse for not having a North Wales region.
Just because the people of Cardiff cant be bothered to travel from one end of the city to the other then the Blues have to change stadiums how ridiculous is that. There is a strong rugby culture in North Wales but the WRU have ignored it.
You have a extremely selfish attitude.

How am I being selfish?
I am not a mouthpiece for Cardiff Blues or the WRU. I am merely commenting on what they should do based on what can be afforded, so i'm being realistic. The excuse for not having a north Wales region is £££'s. Simple as. If there is a strong rugby culture in NW then convince the WRU that a new set up would be financially viable. Roger would be more than willing to listen.

The WRU cant keep financing nonviable regions they cant keep pumping money into something that the fans are clearly not interested in.
The North Wales region wont be infected with Southern politics and the players wont care what part of Wales they play in as long as fans turn up to watch them.
You have had ten years to get rid of the club/region war but clearly it's not going to go away.
The WRU have finally realised that North Wales is the way forward and all the money spent on Eirias park is the first step.
If you do lose one of the regions it will be sad but the WRU has a duty to serve all of Wales and squandering money in one small area cant continue while a third of the population is ignored.

Cymroglan wrote:The WRU cant keep financing nonviable regions they cant keep pumping money into something that the fans are clearly not interested in.
The North Wales region wont be infected with Southern politics and the players wont care what part of Wales they play in as long as fans turn up to watch them.
You have had ten years to get rid of the club/region war but clearly it's not going to go away.
The WRU have finally realised that North Wales is the way forward and all the money spent on Eirias park is the first step.
If you do lose one of the regions it will be sad but the WRU has a duty to serve all of Wales and squandering money in one small area cant continue while a third of the population is ignored.

Oh dear. What financing would that be?
Seriously, how many will watch a north Wales team?

Eirias Park sold out for the U20s
A North Wales region would have no competition from any other major sport.
I can guarantee that a region up here would be well supported and would be extremely attractive to sponsorship deals.

Cymroglan wrote:Eirias Park sold out for the U20s
A North Wales region would have no competition from any other major sport.
I can guarantee that a region up here would be well supported and would be extremely attractive to sponsorship deals.

Sold out is good, but how many and how much were tickets?
How can you guarantee what you say when nothing like that has existed up there before?

When you fill your stadium week in week out then you are in a position to question how well a region will be supported in North Wales.

Sold out 6500 and there were complaints on the radio that people could not get hold of tickets.
It's age grade rugby so the tickets were between £10 and £20
How can I guarantee that fans will turn up ! Well I live here and I know how much interest there is in rugby.
You needs to look at the bigger picture four regions so close to each other is a joke when they are supposed to represent the whole of Wales surely you can see that.

Cymroglan wrote:When you fill your stadium week in week out then you are in a position to question how well a region will be supported in North Wales.

Sold out 6500 and there were complaints on the radio that people could not get hold of tickets.
It's age grade rugby so the tickets were between £10 and £20
How can I guarantee that fans will turn up ! Well I live here and I know how much interest there is in rugby.
You needs to look at the bigger picture four regions so close to each other is a joke when they are supposed to represent the whole of Wales surely you can see that.

Cardiff Blues can't fill their ground week in, week out wherever they play. Never have been able to either.

Cymroglan wrote:When you fill your stadium week in week out then you are in a position to question how well a region will be supported in North Wales.

Sold out 6500 and there were complaints on the radio that people could not get hold of tickets.
It's age grade rugby so the tickets were between £10 and £20
How can I guarantee that fans will turn up ! Well I live here and I know how much interest there is in rugby.
You needs to look at the bigger picture four regions so close to each other is a joke when they are supposed to represent the whole of Wales surely you can see that.

I do look at the bigger picture and many on here don't like it when I point out the bleeding obvious.
But if you think that a North Wales side would be more financially viable than say Cardiff for example then tell Roger and come up with a plan.

Roger does not need telling and I doubt that anybody else needs telling either.

With a bit of luck hopefully the Pieman will pull out of Cardiff and they will go bust

Then we can have a real region that can acually represent the Valleys. If Cardiff actually did what they were meant to do then we wouldnt even have petitions like this. The neglect of Valleys rugby is just as disgracefull as the total ignorance to North Wales

Jimmy Moz wrote:With a bit of luck hopefully the Pieman will pull out of Cardiff and they will go bust

Then we can have a real region that can acually represent the Valleys. If Cardiff actually did what they were meant to do then we wouldnt even have petitions like this. The neglect of Valleys rugby is just as disgracefull as the total ignorance to North Wales

That sounds pretty bitter.

Jimmy Moz wrote:If Cardiff actually did what they were meant to do then we wouldnt even have petitions like this. The neglect of Valleys rugby is just as disgracefull as the total ignorance to North Wales

The O's have shown that they are trying to be a regional team and have started to play games in Bridgend, three this season i think. I also read something that they may be looking to move to that stadium that has been proposed in Island Farm. I just wish the Blues would pull their thumb out and do something that involves the clubs up the A470 other then having the Blues North U-16 team. We need 4 games in Ponty/Merthyr and we need to engage the suporters and players in the region. I know Ponty fans wont be happy. But maybe the chief should be our next coach. Hes done a great job for Ponty.

Jimmy Moz wrote:With a bit of luck hopefully the Pieman will pull out of Cardiff and they will go bust

Then we can have a real region that can acually represent the Valleys. If Cardiff actually did what they were meant to do then we wouldnt even have petitions like this. The neglect of Valleys rugby is just as disgracefull as the total ignorance to North Wales

I'm not sure you can compare the treatment of an area that has always had top clubs (Ponty, Ebbw) and until a few years ago had a professional region to the treatment of an area the third (or more) of the country which has never had a professional region and has been under funded and invested for decades.

I personnally think we'd benefit more from the SH model, having players play for their clubs and region, a new 12 team proffessional premiership, then a four regional system for HC games.

The regional system would be based in the population hotspots, Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, and Wrexham with a 2nd venue within the region mandatory.

For me this would reintroduce local rivalry, which in all honesty Wales miss, but also gives us the potential firepower to compete in europe, pushes competition to make Regional and international honours etc, and all the disenfranchised folk get hwat they want, proffesional representation.

I think this would give the regions much more elite status, and would incorporate all fans, those who know the local boy picked in the regional set up, those who support elitism, success etc...

That's almost a perfect suggestion bluesman - except that the HC teams would have to be North, South, East & West, not based on towns/cities/'population hotspots'(!)

Otherwise its just a warmed-over version of what we have now.

Of course Casartelli, my point is they would be based in those cities, with a mandatory 2nd venue, named whatever you like north/south/east/west

I think you're almost spot-on bluesman - although the 2nd venue is too restrictive - games should be played all over geographic regions.

The LV games and Aironi/Glasgow/Edinburgh etc. could easily go to Aberystwyth, Carmarthen (west), Bridgend, Ponty, Merthyr (south), Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Cardiff Arms Park (east). Brecon, Builth, Wrexham, Colwyn Bay (north).

The Llanelli fans won't like it but there aren't many of them - and everyone else would love it.

TBH mate I think a 3rd mandatory venue might be a bit much, and I was actually talking about dropping from the Rabo for a pro Welsh premiership, the regionalising up for the HC

Yep - I think with some tweaks the idea is the best to grace the pages of 606v2 mate.

Few care about club/superclub/'region' stuff anymore.

If the WRU don't tap into the ongoing support for the Welsh national team (i.e. by creating a sub test team tier of North, South, East & West Wales) it would be a disgrace of a missed opportunity.

The problem with this suggestion is that we only have enough money to fund 4 professional regions (5 at a big stretch) so you'd be putting together 4 regions to play every few months (North split between Wrexham and Colwyn Bay - East - Cardiff, Newport, Ebbw - South - Brigend, Ponty, Merthyr, West - Llanelli, Swansea, Neath - only A* stadiums)

But then beneath that you'd have a semi-pro league with a smattering of professional players playing at half the intensity of the Rabo and replace the intensity of playing the cream of Ireland and Scotland and teams like Munster and Leinster with local rivalries. Am not sure it's going to have the same effect to be honest.

North, South, East & West should also represent us in the Rabo - but you play the top players sparingly. Let the best from the clubs have run outs to test/prove themselves against Rabo opposition.

Everything should be designed around building the best test team possible. Leave the Llanelli/Swansea and Cardiff/Ponty rivalries to the Premiership.

Others are right to laugh at us when those debates find their way into pro rugby.

If we have North, South, East, West representing us in the Rabo then it's exactly the same set up as we have now - ie the regions play professional rugby and try and appeal to the whole region but struggle with parochialism - and the clubs play in the Welsh Premiership where fans who want to support their local club/like local rivalries can watch 2nd tier players play - so not sure what's different other than changing the regions around to be set up as they should have been from the start.

Problem is not sure how much money there is to totally rebrand the regions and go through the same growing pains of the last 8 years all over again

Granted - it would take a more professional approach. But by linking the regions to the national team - not the clubs - it opens up a world of proper corporate sponsors; Admiral, Welsh Water, Specsavers etc. and we're not shackled to local tin-pot benefactors.

Throw in a corporate rebranding of the Stadium ("Millennium" is so last century and nobody is sure how to spell it) - and even Lewis & Pickering could market Welsh rugby successfully.

Umm - the reason that the regions are linked to the benefactors is because the WRU haven't got enough money to solely fund 4 competitive regions as a result the only way to keep the regions afloat is through benefactors -hence the problems with the set up of regional rugby - the WRU wanted 4 geographical regions but needed benefactors to buy in, the benefactors didn't want the clubs they'd poored millions into to disappear so wanted to promote their own clubs within the regional structure.

Not sure how you can assume that huge companies would just be queuing up to take the place of the benefactors and to up their contributions significantly - especially as a company like Admiral already sponsors the Welsh team and wouldn't need to start throwing millions into a region just to raise it's profile.

Also not sure why you'd want to rebrand the Millennium Stadium when it's an internationally recognised stadium and name - and don't really know that many people who have difficulty spelling it!

Seems to me that with these changes Lewis and Pickering would be too busy bending over backwards to attract sponsors to keep the regions afloat to do anything else - Personally I don't really fancy supporting the Specsavers Reds or the Admiral Dragons much.

agree somethings going on in welsh rugby as a whole, think wel find out at end of season,

would i support a blues/dragons merger....only if the scarlets and ospreys merge, then it wuld b east and west wales....and im sure that would work financily ;-)

That would Gavin - but I feel we need more than 2 regions or even 2 regions and a development region up North. I think we can work 4 regions, they just need tweaking though

Speaking as a Leinster supporter. (and therefore un biased towards any Welsh club or region) The Regions were going well in the Celtic league at the start from a results pov.

Scarlets won the 1st Celtic League after Regions. Ospreys the 2nd.

Leinster couldn't buy a win in Wales until our Magners winning season in 07/08, which was the 5th season after Regions.

As someone has said, the money men were biased towards their home club within a region, and the Celtic Warriors collapse was badly dealt with.

Having less (or more) than 4 teams would not work for Wales or the League.

Someone just needs to go in and offer the hand of friendship to the people who perceive themselves as disenfranchised within each region, and take a bit of abuse on the chin, then move on.

Perhaps a bit of consultation at club level within the regions. Maybe if people felt there was a genuine effort being made to accommodate everyone they might row in behind the regions.

I wish to fock yiz would sort it out though, because it is a cancer that is affecting the whole league.

Ireland, Scotland and Italy need strong (and well attended) Welsh regions for the good of us all.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:If we have North, South, East, West representing us in the Rabo then it's exactly the same set up as we have now - ie the regions play professional rugby and try and appeal to the whole region but struggle with parochialism - and the clubs play in the Welsh Premiership where fans who want to support their local club/like local rivalries can watch 2nd tier players play - so not sure what's different other than changing the regions around to be set up as they should have been from the start.

Problem is not sure how much money there is to totally rebrand the regions and go through the same growing pains of the last 8 years all over again

I think your kind of missing the point though. in 2003 we had 9 clubs, we needed to make 9 clubs into 4 teams, however this was eventually 5.
Cardiff became stand alone based on their capital city status and local population = Cardiff Blues
Pontypridd and Bridgend became the = Celtic Warriors
Ebbw Vale and Newport became the = Newport Gwent Dragons
Neath and Swansea became the = Ospreys
Llanelli became stand alone = Llanelli Scarlets

At the time this worked, but the problem is the 9 clubs didnt all have rich benefactors.

Ebbw Vale had no money so sold their share to Newport.

Pontypridd had a lot of ideas and big talk, but when asked by Bridgend benefactor Leighton Samuel how they were going to pay for their half, they had no answer so sold up. Then he got into trouble himself.

Swansea were bankrupt at the merger, so Neath owner Mike Cuddy took total control from the off.

We did the hard bit in getting rid of the clubs and history now we need to have high quality rugby and an enjoyable match day experience.

Having posted my idea for moving the clubs around the region, I now think it might be better for East Wales to play solely at the Millenium stadium as it is not linked to any ground and I would assume all the fans of Cardiff, Newport, the Valleys and even Bridgend would be more than happy to go there and support a team. Most of us could quite happily jump on a train once a week and go and see East Wales play, provided the ticket prices were around £15 an adult and £8 for children and Oap's.

Seeing as the English FA want football clubs not to share with rugby clubs due to pitch damage then it's clear that Parc Y Scarlets would be the West Wales stadium.

The regions are producing players that are up to international standards, and a fair few who are up to Lions standards, which was the point of the regions.

The regions are more competitive than the clubs were. Since regionalism we have seen the regions win 4 celtic/rabo/magners leagues, 1 Amlin Challenge Cup, 2 Lv=/Anglo-Welsh cups. Also we have had a handfull of HC quarter finals, and two semi-finals. We have had a few Amlin QFs, and two SFs (one going on to win). We have had a welsh finalist in all bar one LV=/Anglo-Welsh tournaments. And we have had a heap of second/third place finishes in the Magners/Rabo/Cletic League. Seeing as the regions are not even ten years old yet that is not too shabby a set of results.

Is there really any need for reform, or is it just a case of being realistic and not expecting an infant to be performing brain surgery?

AlynDavies wrote:Having posted my idea for moving the clubs around the region, I now think it might be better for East Wales to play solely at the Millenium stadium as it is not linked to any ground and I would assume all the fans of Cardiff, Newport, the Valleys and even Bridgend would be more than happy to go there and support a team. Most of us could quite happily jump on a train once a week and go and see East Wales play, provided the ticket prices were around £15 an adult and £8 for children and Oap's.

Seeing as the English FA want football clubs not to share with rugby clubs due to pitch damage then it's clear that Parc Y Scarlets would be the West Wales stadium.

Do you not think that if filling the CCS (or even CAP from what I saw on the TV), is not realistically possible right now for the Blues, that a team that would basically be them and the Dragons merged again, would be able to fill the Millenium Stadium? I would give that about two matches before people would be moaning about lack of atmosphere compared to Rodney Parade of CAP, and then we would be back to the position we are in now.

And I honestly don't think that if you merged the Scarlets and the Ospreys that they would play at PYS. If you thin of it Neath merged with Swansea, even though Neath provided the players, coaches and money, when the team needed one new home it was built in Swanseas (as that is where the population is), so more than likely after a few seasons of sharing matches between PYS, Brewery Feild, and St. Helens, I would expect the team to end up at a new stadium based in Swansea (as it is easier to get to from most places, and has the bulk of wealth/population).

AlynDavies wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:If we have North, South, East, West representing us in the Rabo then it's exactly the same set up as we have now - ie the regions play professional rugby and try and appeal to the whole region but struggle with parochialism - and the clubs play in the Welsh Premiership where fans who want to support their local club/like local rivalries can watch 2nd tier players play - so not sure what's different other than changing the regions around to be set up as they should have been from the start.

Problem is not sure how much money there is to totally rebrand the regions and go through the same growing pains of the last 8 years all over again

I think your kind of missing the point though. in 2003 we had 9 clubs, we needed to make 9 clubs into 4 teams, however this was eventually 5.
Cardiff became stand alone based on their capital city status and local population = Cardiff Blues
Pontypridd and Bridgend became the = Celtic Warriors
Ebbw Vale and Newport became the = Newport Gwent Dragons
Neath and Swansea became the = Ospreys
Llanelli became stand alone = Llanelli Scarlets

At the time this worked, but the problem is the 9 clubs didnt all have rich benefactors.

Ebbw Vale had no money so sold their share to Newport.

Pontypridd had a lot of ideas and big talk, but when asked by Bridgend benefactor Leighton Samuel how they were going to pay for their half, they had no answer so sold up. Then he got into trouble himself.

Swansea were bankrupt at the merger, so Neath owner Mike Cuddy took total control from the off.

We did the hard bit in getting rid of the clubs and history now we need to have high quality rugby and an enjoyable match day experience.

Having posted my idea for moving the clubs around the region, I now think it might be better for East Wales to play solely at the Millenium stadium as it is not linked to any ground and I would assume all the fans of Cardiff, Newport, the Valleys and even Bridgend would be more than happy to go there and support a team. Most of us could quite happily jump on a train once a week and go and see East Wales play, provided the ticket prices were around £15 an adult and £8 for children and Oap's.

Seeing as the English FA want football clubs not to share with rugby clubs due to pitch damage then it's clear that Parc Y Scarlets would be the West Wales stadium.

Alyn I think you were missing my point as you've kindof agreed with the point I was making in your response - As you say there were 5 regions set up because the clubs those regions were based on were the only ones with rich benefactors. We now have 4 regions, and there would be little difference if we had the North,West,East,South set up suggested above - just you'd have different disenfranchised fans and would need to find different benefactors to come on board and agree the changes.

I agree we need to get high quality rugby and an enjoyable match experience (I'd add having sustainable, competitive regions here as well), but I'm not sure if the rebranding/positioning of the current regions would achieve. It could solve some of the problems but merely create other problems in their place.

Also unsure that a region made up of Newport, Gwent Valleys, Cardiff & the Rhondda Cynon Taf valleys will be able to unify enough to get regular attendances to even half fill the MS - I've been in the MS when there's been 15k, 25k and 35k and the atmosphere is pretty awful.

Scrap the lot, look towards representative sides. you could then have a board with reps from the clubs and union to give a lead and a general manager/excec tasked with the sole purpose of running a profitable business. Centrally contract all the players, coaches and support staff. under that a semi pro prem like so:

3 North/Mid clubs + Llanelli, Swansea, Neath, Bridgend, Pontypridd, Cardiff, Newport, Ebbw Vale & Pontypool.

This should be fed from 4 regional division with a promotion/relegation playoff for the bottom placed prem team and top placed lower division team for each of the regions.

Everything under the prem should be strictly amateur.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:Having posted my idea for moving the clubs around the region, I now think it might be better for East Wales to play solely at the Millenium stadium as it is not linked to any ground and I would assume all the fans of Cardiff, Newport, the Valleys and even Bridgend would be more than happy to go there and support a team. Most of us could quite happily jump on a train once a week and go and see East Wales play, provided the ticket prices were around £15 an adult and £8 for children and Oap's.

Seeing as the English FA want football clubs not to share with rugby clubs due to pitch damage then it's clear that Parc Y Scarlets would be the West Wales stadium.

Do you not think that if filling the CCS (or even CAP from what I saw on the TV), is not realistically possible right now for the Blues, that a team that would basically be them and the Dragons merged again, would be able to fill the Millenium Stadium? I would give that about two matches before people would be moaning about lack of atmosphere compared to Rodney Parade of CAP, and then we would be back to the position we are in now.

And I honestly don't think that if you merged the Scarlets and the Ospreys that they would play at PYS. If you thin of it Neath merged with Swansea, even though Neath provided the players, coaches and money, when the team needed one new home it was built in Swanseas (as that is where the population is), so more than likely after a few seasons of sharing matches between PYS, Brewery Feild, and St. Helens, I would expect the team to end up at a new stadium based in Swansea (as it is easier to get to from most places, and has the bulk of wealth/population).

Agree with much of what you say ScarletSpiderman and your words "realistic" and "realistically" are what others on this board should consider using.
Moving games around from ground to ground has always been a nonsense idea and as for using the MS...... you're right it's far too big for domestic rugby and it also doesn't have a pitch in place all year round.

Munster are the only team in Europe that I know of, who play in two different cities. And even they play the majority in Limerick, including all the biggest ones.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Munster are the only team in Europe that I know of, who play in two different cities. And even they play the majority in Limerick, including all the biggest ones.

I know Toulon have played a few games in Marseille, due to the much larger capacity of the ground there, but not sure how often they have done this.
Only when the big boys have come to town I guess.

The regional set-up is doing a good job in providing high calibre players for the national team. The problem is poor support from rugby fans where we need to have gates of 10.000+ if we hope to pay the wages which will keep our players in Wales. To achieve such gates we must make it attractive to the fans with easy travel, attractive atmospheric stadia, and welcoming clubhouses (or local pubs). These are the factors which made CAP such a magnificent venue. The fans must be made to feel that attending the match is an exciting social event well worth the cost and worth leaving the armchair opposite the tele. The current venues offer the only chance.

stourjim wrote:The regional set-up is doing a good job in providing high calibre players for the national team. The problem is poor support from rugby fans where we need to have gates of 10.000+ if we hope to pay the wages which will keep our players in Wales. To achieve such gates we must make it attractive to the fans with easy travel, attractive atmospheric stadia, and welcoming clubhouses (or local pubs). These are the factors which made CAP such a magnificent venue. The fans must be made to feel that attending the match is an exciting social event well worth the cost and worth leaving the armchair opposite the tele. The current venues offer the only chance.

Thats fair but with the exception of the Dragons any time I have been to the other 3 regions I get the distinct feeling I have been totally fleeced. Parking and the price of food and dink makes the cost prohibitive to take my family there.

The only way you can go to a region as a family is if you have a lot of disposable income.

Panic over - the WRU Chief Exec, Roger, has been on Scrum V explaining it all.

It's a critical crossroads in Welsh rugby and essential radical changes will be in place before the start of next season. But men and women have worked hard at the superclubs so he's not going to throw that away.

He didn't give any details - because he doesn't need to. It's a rock solid plan.

Anyone that doubts this is a well thought out strategy is clearly a fool.

Casartelli wrote:Panic over - the WRU Chief Exec, Roger, has been on Scrum V explaining it all.

It's a critical crossroads in Welsh rugby and essential radical changes will be in place before the start of next season. But men and women have worked hard at the superclubs so he's not going to throw that away.

He didn't give any details - because he doesn't need to. It's a rock solid plan.

Anyone that doubts this is a well thought out strategy is clearly a fool.

You mean he confused everyone with his corporate phsyco babble and when a solution presents itself he will sort it out?

When I saw him on scrum v being interviewed he just came over as a politician.

What he said he said with conviction, the only problem being he didn't really say anything at all. Just a load of corporate speak but nothing of any substance.

Nothing will come of the report which will just be put on a shelf with the others . In fact from what he did say it doesn't appear that the report will make any recommendations anyway.

There are too many people with their fingers in the regional pie to make the proper changes needed.

I will say to be fair the WRU board are damn good at their jobs.

The WRU has record turnover, they inherited a mess and have sorted it out, the debt is being reduced year on year and reading the Annual report the WRU always seem to have a solid plan and work hard to stick to it.

I just don;t like the way a lot of them talk in public, it is like they have been on some kind of course, when the Welsh people would just prefer someone who they feel they can engage with, no someone running off coroprate rhetoric.

AlynDavies wrote:I will say to be fair the WRU board are damn good at their jobs.

Depends on how you define 'good at their jobs'.

If they'd evolved the superclub game into proper regions;
Attracted corporate sponsors to the regional game and ditched the benefactors;
Brought in millions from selling the naming rights to the stadium;
Developed one decent superclub/region at HC level.

Or even any one of the above - I might agree with you.

They've hired a decent coach (Gatland) and crumbled under pressure from Barclays to reduce the debt (diverting millions away from developing the game in Wales). All at a time when it would have been easy to negotiate a better position with a bank crippled by bad press in the current financial climate.

Excuse me if I contend that any beancounting idiot could have done a better job. For far less money.

Agree with everything Casartelli has said

Personally I would also:

Get in 3 REAL regions. East. Central and West (North will be a possibility in the future)

Have 15 Welshman running out for each of these regions every week

Centralised contracts

Get the premiership down to 10 teams. Possibly even move it to the summer to get people in

3 teams from each region plus a North Wales team

So now we have real regions, Welsh players, and then if players want to leave for bigger wages elsewhere so what as we would have youngsters coming through from what would be a STRONG and enjoyable to watch premiership

Is that really so hard?

In Wales it seems so