Nadal Adds To His Mythical Legacy

It's not necessarily what Nadal has won that will be remembered but the way that he often wins.

At the end of last year he was set the tricky task of playing what would be the final rubber in the Davis Cup final. It was on clay in front of an adoring home crowd. Of course he was expected to win but he was also expected to win with style. Nadal after all never loses on clay. The party atmosphere of the crowd at the start was anticipating the celebration at the end. It's difficult to imagine a player being under more pressure than that.

What happened? His opponant Del Potro came out playing brilliantly and took the first set 6-1. He then went up a break in the second. This was not how the script was meant to go. Nadal was hardly able to win a point. The commentators were writing his obituary. Yet somehow instead crumbling Nadal was somehow able to turn the match around. He ended up playing some of his best tennis of the year. Instead of the script going wrong. Nadal had written the perfect script. The crowd certainly got their monies worth!

This was the sort of match Nadal will be remembered for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6_9O77E7TA

I wonder what happened to the script in other matches.

I'm not quite getting this.. Nadal has lost more matches in this fashion than he has won as of late.. so how is he adding to his legacy? If anything , he has shown that his iron will and mentality is just as fragile as most. Great carreer, great player, but he's been exposed.

hawkeye wrote:It's not necessarily what Nadal has won that will be remembered but the way that he often wins. ... This was the sort of match Nadal will be remembered for.

It was an amazing match between Del Potro and Nadal, with many amazing points and winners. You are right that he is often remembered by the way that he wins ... but clearly different people have different opinions on whether this way is good viewing or not. However, one issue that has driven many Nadal admirers from these boards is the intensity, repetitiveness, versatility and forcefulness of the comments submitted from a significant subset of those that dislike Nadal's style of play.

Really thought that DC match deserved to go a 5th set but you have to say Nadal always has an answer for these heavy hitters you just have to play very tactically to get through Nadal rather than going for the knockout every stroke.

Nadal was lucky.

Nore Staat wrote:

hawkeye wrote:It's not necessarily what Nadal has won that will be remembered but the way that he often wins. ... This was the sort of match Nadal will be remembered for.

It was an amazing match between Del Potro and Nadal, with many amazing points and winners. You are right that he is often remembered by the way that he wins ... but clearly different people have different opinions on whether this way is good viewing or not. However, one issue that has driven many Nadal admirers from these boards is the intensity, repetitiveness, versatility and forcefulness of the comments submitted from a significant subset of those that dislike Nadal's style of play.

Thank you Nore Staat. I am glad that there are at least two members of 606v2 that appeciate what an amazing player Nadal is. That significant subset may by the "intensity, repetitiveness, versatility and forcefulness of their comments" have been able to turn this site into a place were their views appear to be in the majority but that is not the case outside of their little niche.

The video clip I gave a link to showed some good points from the match. However I was unable to find one that combined that with more general veiws of the crowd that would have shown just how electric and emotional that match was. The atmosphere was of a quality rarely seen in sport let alone tennis. Nadal at his charismatic best has the ability to make the crowd emotionally involved in the match in a way that is rarely seen. I have no doubt that those present at that Davis Cup final will be well aware that what they witnessed was rare and special (as did many who viewed on TV).

I have also no doubt that Nadal is building a legacy that will become almost mythical in status. Strangely the venom and intensity shown by the few that dislike him will only add to this legacy. It's difficult to have a neutral response to this player.

legendkillar wrote:Nadal was lucky.

Ha ha! Did you find the match a bit boring too?

Think you are doing a dis-service to Armitee who posts better articles about Nadal than yourself Hawky. Someone that has a balanced view and actually does proper research and provides the facts. Without 'cherry' picking.

Thing is Hawky, you mention mythical. I don't think he is mythical because he has achieved so much. I would say players like Gasquet and Dolgopolov were more mythical because of how much they have under-achieved despite their talent.

The more correct term for Nadal would be 'divides opinion' he is in the Connors or McEnroe camp by where people look for reasons to dislike his game or his personality given that the Americans fall under the latter view.

You could say Nadal was revolutional in the modern game given that he is mould most players will try to emulate for their short-comings in the talent area. Yes we have seen Borg, Lendl and Wilander be successful in their respective era's, but the biggest white elephant to most is does Nadal have talent? I am in the yes camp. I think he is rather talented. Djokovic's recent successes over Nadal does not come through lungs alone despite the recent AO and USO being just that, but on the Clay and latter HC tournaments, Djokovic took the ball early and thus forcing Nadal on the attack which he is not use to and still struggles with that now.

legendkillar wrote:Think you are doing a dis-service to Armitee who posts better articles about Nadal than yourself Hawky. Someone that has a balanced view and actually does proper research and provides the facts. Without 'cherry' picking.

And here was me thinking you were one of my biggest "fans"..... sigh.

Nobody becomes mythical because they divide opinion. Anyway Nadal doesn't divide opinion he is an overwhelming fan favourite but the few that dislike him really, really dislike him to the point of obsession.

The mythical legacy that I'm referring to is because of the way that he plays, the script that many of his matches follow and the way he is charismatic and able to engage the crowd in an emotional way. Many watching that Davis Cup match will have left sensing they have seen something amazing. You only have to look at their reactions to realise this. It will be a special memory. Multiply that by the number of other amazing matches he has been involved in... thats equal to a lot of very special memories. That is how a mythical legacy is built.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Think you are doing a dis-service to Armitee who posts better articles about Nadal than yourself Hawky. Someone that has a balanced view and actually does proper research and provides the facts. Without 'cherry' picking.

And here was me thinking you were one of my biggest "fans"..... sigh.

Nobody becomes mythical because they divide opinion. Anyway Nadal doesn't divide opinion he is an overwhelming fan favourite but the few that dislike him really, really dislike him to the point of obsession.

The mythical legacy that I'm referring to is because of the way that he plays, the script that many of his matches follow and the way he is charismatic and able to engage the crowd in an emotional way. Many watching that Davis Cup match will have left sensing they have seen something amazing. You only have to look at their reactions to realise this. It will be a special memory. Multiply that by the number of other amazing matches he has been involved in... thats equal to a lot of very special memories. That is how a mythical legacy is built.

I didn't think it was that captivating.

You need to see Serbia and Croatia's success to see what emotion is. Nadal's body language didn't seem any different to any other match he has played.

Nadal charismatic? Not really. Passionate yes, but if you want charismatic, check the video I posted in the tennis vault and check out Jimmy Connors in 1991. Nadal is engaging to the crowd which is far more different. Safin was charismatic. Someone who lives in the moment and displays emotion without being 'choreographed' Hewitt was charismatic in an intense way like Djokovic is today. I would find myself relating to someone that celebrates in a way that is driven by emotion. If Nadal was more vocal and had other ways of celebrating without the fist pump, then yes I would call him charismatic.

Nadal in some ways is the perfect gentleman. Conducts himself in victory and defeat the same.

Interesting that you talk about "Serbia" and "Croatia's" success and not individual players. It is easier to capture fans emotional response for nationalistic reasons because you don't have to do all the "capturing" youself some will captured because they support their country in an emotional way. Djokovic in particular benifits from this.

This article was using the Davis Cup final as an example and so of course Nadal was benifiting from nationalistic support there. But what does it say about Nadals ability to engage with fans when for example he plays Murray at Wimbledon. For nationalistic reasons the majority of fans should be on Murray's side but Nadal manages to "steal" more than half of them. How does he do this? Please don't use this as an excuse to talk about Murray I was just using Wimbledon as the most obvious example.

I wouldn't say he 'steals' from Murray at Wimbledon. Far from it. You need to go back to days of when Sampras put Henman to the sword so many times. You can guarantee that the supporters are all with them until they are set from losing. Then it goes quiet. Wimbledon fans are respectful to all players that participate, regardless of who they play. You don't get the divvies like the French crowd. The US crowd can be rambunctious when playing a country favourite, but in the norm are respectful.

The Davis Cup atmosphere is somewhat hostile in critical moments. The Nadal and Del Potro was no exception to that.

Whenever anyone played Henman or Murray their conquerers are heavily supported in the following match/s. Big question is why hasn't Nadal captivated the French crowd? He is about to become the most successful player there and yet hasn't got the ful support of the crowd.

It is so easy to assess a players standing amongst a home crowd and compare it to crowd responses around the world.

If anything I have always been surprised by the lack of support he receives.

and the way he is charismatic and able to engage the crowd in an emotional way

Nadal doesn't 'engage' with the crowd. He merely does the VAMOS and fist pump to agitate his opponent. He doesn't actually raise his arms to the crowd like Monfils would for example..

If Nadal was more vocal and had other ways of celebrating without the fist pump, then yes I would call him charismatic.

I couldn't put it any better than monsieur LK on this occasion. Nadal totally blanks the crowd even at the end of a long winning rally. To be honest Roger is the same and Murray similar.

I think hawkeye has confused Nadal with Monfils for 'engaging with the crowd'.

Nadal has the crowd support from the beginning at Wimbledon. He gets the biggest cheer when he walks on the court against Murray. In general he gets the biggest support wherever he goes and whoever he is playing. The only player who can even get equal support to him from the crowd is Federer.

The only exeption I think is in France and at RG in particular. I always thought it had something to do with the way he repeatidly beats Federer there and the way he has beat him. Maybe if he had just let him win once things might be different. For Federer to have been such an underdog anywhere feels wrong and to many including me sad. I was left stunned after the 2008 final! It would feel cruel perhaps to cheer any player too much who is inflicting such pain on such a great player.

Saying that IMO this year the crowd was more balanced when these two great players played. They should have been as they were being treated to an amazing match (another one!).

Nadal has the crowd support from the beginning at Wimbledon. He gets the biggest cheer when he walks on the court against Murray.

But you said he engages with the crowd. No he doesn't. Nadal gets more of the crowd at Wimbledon because Murray is negative and uninspiring.

Nadal doesn't get a bigger cheer than Murray. If you could provide decible readings, I would agree. James Ward gets bigger cheers than Nadal. Funny how I don't see Henman Hill draped in Spanish flags or what not. I think you are clutching at straws at a desperate attempt to polarise Nadal's popularity.

Federer secondily gets the most support after Murray. I would rank Nadal behind Djokovic and the rest of the British field.

I don't think so LK, not from what I have seen.
Have you seen the facebook fans they have.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

and the way he is charismatic and able to engage the crowd in an emotional way

Nadal doesn't 'engage' with the crowd. He merely does the VAMOS and fist pump to agitate his opponent. He doesn't actually raise his arms to the crowd like Monfils would for example..

It's easy to do things to try and engage with the crowd (Nadal never does the Tsonga thing of saying to the crowd "look at me".
For that matter he doesn't appear to do it for the benifit of the
opponant either and tends to face away from his opponant when celebrating). What Nadal is able to do is much rarer. The crowd engages with him because the way he celebrates looks like a natural reaction to important points in the game. Also some of the matches he has played do have amazing twists where single points can change the dynamics... and he does make a bit of a habit of playing the most spectacular, unbelievable points and shots when it really matters.

It's understandable why so many empathise with this excitement. It makes tennis look fun and exciting. This again all adds to that mythical legacy he is creating.

amritia3ee,

Have you actually been to a Wimbledon match with Murray and Nadal playing? Facebook fans count for nothing when players come onto court.

When Murray and nadal are playing at Wimby Murray gets a bigger cheer.
But as Nadal says he always gets a lot of respect from the crowd which he appreciates.

hawkeye wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

and the way he is charismatic and able to engage the crowd in an emotional way

Nadal doesn't 'engage' with the crowd. He merely does the VAMOS and fist pump to agitate his opponent. He doesn't actually raise his arms to the crowd like Monfils would for example..

It's easy to do things to try and engage with the crowd (Nadal never does the Tsonga thing of saying to the crowd "look at me".
For that matter he doesn't appear to do it for the benifit of the
opponant either and tends to face away from his opponant when celebrating). What Nadal is able to do is much rarer. The crowd engages with him because the way he celebrates looks like a natural reaction to important points in the game. Also some of the matches he has played do have amazing twists where single points can change the dynamics... and he does make a bit of a habit of playing the most spectacular, unbelievable points and shots when it really matters.

It's understandable why so many empathise with this excitement. It makes tennis look fun and exciting. This again all adds to that mythical legacy he is creating.

Hawky,

That passage there is clearly from your rear passage.

Why have fans not stepped forward to this claim?

The fist pump offers nothing and is non engaging. Not charmismatic. I have not heard of anyone step forward and say 'Rafael Nadal has a sense of humour' no-one from his team or anything.

You need to offer examples of 'engaging' the crowd. Take the example JM gave with Monfils. That is engaging the crowd.

A fist pump merely engages the daydreaming homosexuals in the crowd.

amritia3ee wrote:When Murray and nadal are playing at Wimby Murray gets a bigger cheer.
But as Nadal says he always gets a lot of respect from the crowd which he appreciates.

Agreed.

See Hawky, a fan with perspective.

Have you seen the facebook fans they have.

I got this from Wordpress.

"The number of Facebook users in Russia is 1, 244 ,280 while Vkontake has 75,604,275 members"

Now imagine how many followers Djokovic would have if those numbers were reversed and more Russians used facebook. Djokovic is very popular in this part of Europe remember!

legendkillar wrote:Nadal doesn't get a bigger cheer than Murray. If you could provide decible readings, I would agree. James Ward gets bigger cheers than Nadal. Funny how I don't see Henman Hill draped in Spanish flags or what not. I think you are clutching at straws at a desperate attempt to polarise Nadal's popularity.

Federer secondily gets the most support after Murray. I would rank Nadal behind Djokovic and the rest of the British field.

All flags are banned from Wimbledon so you will never see any flags on Henman Hill or anywhere else in the grounds.

However it always makes me smile to see fans throughout the world draped in Spanish flags etc at Nadals matches. The commentators refer to them as "Spanish fans" but it is fairly obvious that the have few links with Spain. Just like Nadal manages to "steal" fans who would in different circumstances be supporting their home player (like at Wimbledon with Murray) he also manages to get them to "temporarily" change their nationality. If you don't believe this watch carefully next time Nadal plays. How many can claim to have such powers? Again it all adds to the mythical legacy he is building.

I do think the 'Vamos' and the 'fist pump' engages the crowd, well the Rafa fans go crazy anyway.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Nadal doesn't get a bigger cheer than Murray. If you could provide decible readings, I would agree. James Ward gets bigger cheers than Nadal. Funny how I don't see Henman Hill draped in Spanish flags or what not. I think you are clutching at straws at a desperate attempt to polarise Nadal's popularity.

Federer secondily gets the most support after Murray. I would rank Nadal behind Djokovic and the rest of the British field.

All flags are banned from Wimbledon so you will never see any flags on Henman Hill or anywhere else in the grounds.

However it always makes me smile to see fans throughout the world draped in Spanish flags etc at Nadals matches. The commentators refer to them as "Spanish fans" but it is fairly obvious that the have few links with Spain. Just like Nadal manages to "steal" fans who would in different circumstances be supporting their home player (like at Wimbledon with Murray) he also manages to get them to "temporarily" change their nationality. If you don't believe this watch carefully next time Nadal plays. How many can claim to have such powers? Again it all adds to the mythical legacy he is building.

I am from Britain and I support nadal. The support Nadal receives from all corners of the world is amazing. Same Federer, and even djokovic is starting to get more popular now. I also think murray's popularity will rise soon (maybe not as high as nadal or Federer though), as he's a nice guy with a sense of humour.

legendkillar wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

and the way he is charismatic and able to engage the crowd in an emotional way

Nadal doesn't 'engage' with the crowd. He merely does the VAMOS and fist pump to agitate his opponent. He doesn't actually raise his arms to the crowd like Monfils would for example..

It's easy to do things to try and engage with the crowd (Nadal never does the Tsonga thing of saying to the crowd "look at me".
For that matter he doesn't appear to do it for the benifit of the
opponant either and tends to face away from his opponant when celebrating). What Nadal is able to do is much rarer. The crowd engages with him because the way he celebrates looks like a natural reaction to important points in the game. Also some of the matches he has played do have amazing twists where single points can change the dynamics... and he does make a bit of a habit of playing the most spectacular, unbelievable points and shots when it really matters.

It's understandable why so many empathise with this excitement. It makes tennis look fun and exciting. This again all adds to that mythical legacy he is creating.

Hawky,

That passage there is clearly from your rear passage.

Why have fans not stepped forward to this claim?

The fist pump offers nothing and is non engaging. Not charmismatic. I have not heard of anyone step forward and say 'Rafael Nadal has a sense of humour' no-one from his team or anything.

You need to offer examples of 'engaging' the crowd. Take the example JM gave with Monfils. That is engaging the crowd.

A fist pump merely engages the daydreaming homosexuals in the crowd.

Ooooh! What are you saying? Of course Nadal is not known for his sense of humour... A sense of humour is worthless in regards to a mythical legacy so he would be sensible to keep his jokes private.

amritia3ee wrote:When Murray and nadal are playing at Wimby Murray gets a bigger cheer.
But as Nadal says he always gets a lot of respect from the crowd which he appreciates.

I disagree! In fact instead of that big clock that so many want fitted at the side of the courts so that Nadals opponants can win points off him through time penalties (rather than having to hit the ball) maybe the should install "clapometers". This could measure the crowd response to a players entrance. Nadal would go virtually unbeaten. It would only be Federer who could consistantly challenge him...

hawkeye wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:When Murray and nadal are playing at Wimby Murray gets a bigger cheer.
But as Nadal says he always gets a lot of respect from the crowd which he appreciates.

I disagree! In fact instead of that big clock that so many want fitted at the side of the courts so that Nadals opponants can win points off him through time penalties (rather than having to hit the ball) maybe the should install "clapometers". This could measure the crowd response to a players entrance. Nadal would go virtually unbeaten. It would only be Federer who could consistantly challenge him...

Not one person agrees with you Hawky.

Your popularity is on the decline.

Your popularity is on the decline.

I believe his popularity has maintained a steady streamline from sub zero to sub zero.

Ha ha! Its not me thats building up a mythical legacy...

I think DC added to his "ultimate competitor" legacy...not his mystique.

Basically the guy never knows when he's beaten...we know he has said that he plays for the field of competiton not the trophies per se.

Just a cliche though isn't it?

Probably 2/3's of the tennis players say they play for the competition when interviewed.

hawkeye wrote:Thank you Nore Staat. I am glad that there are at least two members of 606v2 that appeciate what an amazing player Nadal is.

I was wondering if Amritia3ee, SA and Lydian's exclusion from such an exotic club would be noticed or not.

I have already been branded a Federer 'worshipper', and have no desire to be included in such an 'exclusive' club, as HE is proposing.

Perhaps HE can expand on why this specific match has a 'mythical' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mythical) quality while this one does not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfKDorh61HU

LF - kind of like Groucho Marks said..."I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member".

JM - at pro-sport level they're all competitive animals. This concerns nuance and I feel Nadal is never happier than being in a "to the death" dog fight

laverfan wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Thank you Nore Staat. I am glad that there are at least two members of 606v2 that appeciate what an amazing player Nadal is.

I was wondering if Amritia3ee, SA and Lydian's exclusion from such an exotic club would be noticed or not.

I have already been branded a Federer 'worshipper', and have no desire to be included in such an 'exclusive' club, as HE is proposing.

Perhaps HE can expand on why this specific match has a 'mythical' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mythical) quality while this one does not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfKDorh61HU

Ha ha! Its not an exclusive or "exotic" club anyone can join all they have to do to be admitted is appreciate Nadal. Also I didn't know you liked let alone "worshipped" Federer. You should be more vocal with your support. I always thought your heart belonged to Murray...

As to why the match you linked to doesn't have a mythical quality. One of the examples from the link you provided for the definition of mythical was of "Gods fighting in a mythical battle in the sky". No disrespect to Ferrer or Del Potro but they have hardly reached that status. Wheras I would say that for Nadal it is entirely suitable. In fact I've seen write ups of some of his matches that already make that sort of comparison. I do understand that its not a description of Nadal that would be thrown about here on 606v2 though...

Hawkeye did you get my PM?
Don't discuss the contents of it on here though

hawkeye wrote:I always thought your heart belonged to Murray...

My heart belongs to Tennis, not just one player.

laverfan wrote:

hawkeye wrote:I always thought your heart belonged to Murray...

My heart belongs to Tennis, not just one player.

So does part of your heart belong to Rafa?

lydian wrote:LF - kind of like Groucho Marks said..."I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member".

Marx, not Marks! I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse.

lydian

I'm very sorry but you cannot join my club...

hawkeye wrote:

laverfan wrote:

hawkeye wrote:I always thought your heart belonged to Murray...

My heart belongs to Tennis, not just one player.

So does part of your heart belong to Rafa?

Absolutely. .

HE, I consider Nadal one of the current greats of the game (I have no penchant for GOAT/GOTE debates). Does he have his detractors? Yes, he does.

Am I one of his detractors? yes! I want him to step up and clear his name against these doping allegations, once and for all, so we can save some internet bandwidth and no one points a finger at him.

Can he improve in other areas? Yes, he can.

hawkeye wrote:lydian

I'm very sorry but you cannot join my club...

I am . I consider Lydian a very sane, rational poster and I think he enriches the discussions on 606v2.

Thanks LF, I'm gutted to not be a member of whatever sub-club is being talked about as on offer.

Anyway...I'm a member of the 606V2 tennis club...is that not enough?

lydian wrote:

Anyway...I'm a member of the 606V2 tennis club...is that not enough?

Glad to have you as member of the 606v2 Tennis 'club' (oops 'forum').

cheers

Nadal and Ferrer were both well below their best after their WTF exploits. So a well rested and prepared Delboy should've done better.

but lydian 606v2 is "glad to have you as a member" (according to laverfan) doesn't that mean you now have to leave?