Can a foreign coach break the RWC duck?

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 10:56

2015: and there are calls for the likes of Mallett, White etc. to take over at England. Home RWCs are historically a huge advantage to progress to the sharp end of the tournament.

I'm pretty certain that foreign coaches tend to come in with such objectivity that without the understanding of the passions and interplays of irrational histories/prejudices/venom/etc. which underpin those players that have a real understanding of the national psyche (and that is equally applies to imported players (the Mike Catts of this world are rare)).

To me a national manager should be born, bred and imbued with the national spirit.

Equally home-born / child immigrants players will inherently understand the underlying passion.

by geoff998rugby Tue 14 Feb - 11:12

Portnoy wrote: Equally home-born / child immigrants players will inherently understand the underlying passion.

What about applying the same principal to your players Whistle

by Geordie Tue 14 Feb - 11:14

I dont want mallet or anyone as head coach.

Only one man for me....DEANO....!!

by dummy_half Tue 14 Feb - 11:24

GeordieFalcon wrote:I dont want mallet or anyone as head coach.

Only one man for me....DEANO....!!

Not going to happen though Geordie - his actions stepped so far over the line (and got found out) that there is no way the RFU would ever consider him in a high profile role.

by beshocked Tue 14 Feb - 11:26

Why not simply pick the best?

If the best man to lead England forward is foreign then he should be picked.

Andy Flower, the England cricket coach is what you would call a foreigner Portnoy yet he has been successful with the England cricket team.

Passion can cloud judgement. Professionalism is the way to go.

My ideal coach for the England football team would be Guus Hiddink because he is the best coach available. He has infinite more experience than any English candidate.

In the case of England rugby, Stuart Lancaster has an opportunity now to prove he is up to the job. We cannot judge him till the dust settles on the 6 nations.

Nick Mallett and Jake White would be good candidates and have more experience and pedigree than any English candidate.

Lots of English rugby fans have been raving over Mallinder. Similar to Redknapp. Both have done good things with their respective clubs. A resurgence of fortunes for both.

Unfortunately for both - neither have full international experience. Neither have won any major silverware.

Redknapp and Mallinder simply aren't as good as other coaches.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 11:36

beshocked wrote:Why not simply pick the best?

If the best man to lead England forward is foreign then he should be picked.

Andy Flower, the England cricket coach is what you would call a foreigner Portnoy yet he has been successful with the England cricket team.

Passion can cloud judgement. Professionalism is the way to go.

My ideal coach for the England football team would be Guus Hiddink because he is the best coach available. He has infinite more experience than any English candidate.

In the case of England rugby, Stuart Lancaster has an opportunity now to prove he is up to the job. We cannot judge him till the dust settles on the 6 nations.

Nick Mallett and Jake White would be good candidates and have more experience and pedigree than any English candidate.

Lots of English rugby fans have been raving over Mallinder. Similar to Redknapp. Both have done good things with their respective clubs. A resurgence of fortunes for both.

Unfortunately for both - neither have full international experience. Neither have won any major silverware.

Redknapp and Mallinder simply aren't as good as other coaches.

Please re-read the rationale in my OP.

To understand the nation (in this case English) you have to be a national.

by RubyGuby Tue 14 Feb - 11:44

To understand the nation (in this case English) you have to be a national.

Mate, to understand the nation you have to be a cross between, Freud, Einstein, Scargill and Boris Johnson - it aint gonna happen thumbsup

by SecretFly Tue 14 Feb - 11:47

Portnoy wrote:
To understand the nation (in this case English) you have to be a national.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, a coach doesn't have to have a Masters in the geopolitical and social history of England... all he needs to do is put together matchday squads of 22 men with the gameplan and natural ability to win the game that is infront of them. The players, if they're losing, are not losing because their coach doesn't understand them; they're losing because either the gameplan is wrong or they happen to be the wrong players asked to play it.

The philosophy is all very well and good but the time for philosophy is when journalists overdo the schmaltz on the back pages or Eddie Butler is let loose with his sing-song poetry at the beginning of the games.

by RubyGuby Tue 14 Feb - 11:48

You leave Eddie out of this Wink

by miteyironpaw Tue 14 Feb - 11:51

beshocked wrote:Why not simply pick the best?

If the best man to lead England forward is foreign then he should be picked.

Andy Flower, the England cricket coach is what you would call a foreigner Portnoy yet he has been successful with the England cricket team.

Andy Flower is the ideal man to understand the psyche of the key South Africans in our cricket team, so the OP's point stands.

Perhaps we could get Sir Graham Henry to understand the psyche of Tuilagi, Hartley and the others.

Nonsense point I'm afraid, and bordering on racism.

by RubyGuby Tue 14 Feb - 11:52

miteyironpaw wrote:
beshocked wrote:Why not simply pick the best?

If the best man to lead England forward is foreign then he should be picked.

Andy Flower, the England cricket coach is what you would call a foreigner Portnoy yet he has been successful with the England cricket team.

Andy Flower is the ideal man to understand the psyche of the key South Africans in our cricket team, so the OP's point stands.

Malletts your man then Yahoo

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 11:53

OK. Let's have a list of national 'foreign' coaches that have won the biggest gong in their sport.

I can't imagine that it will be very long for major sports.

by Guest Tue 14 Feb - 11:57

England need a coach from outside of the RFU system. Someone who will not be afraid to innovate and bring in new thinking and fresh ideas. If that person, is not english/british, then so be it. Wales aren't exactly struggling under their foreign coaches. Ireland have had a few as well.

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 14 Feb - 11:59

Why is the title manager rather than coach? Manager was a good title for Woodward but what England needs is a good coach right now. There are some classy players in the English team but they are short on world class players. So somebody who can get the best out of the players on offer is what´s needed. I think it´s debatable whether that person needs to be English to do that. I just think they need to have a very good rugby brain and have a clear idea of what style best suits the English team and its players.

by **Biltong** Tue 14 Feb - 12:07

I would be very happy indeed if Mallet doesn't become head coach of England. He is a progressive thinking coach, good technical analyst and was the most successful bok coach in the professional era.

during his tenure as coach we scored 152 tries in 38 test matches, an average of 4 tries per match.

Compare that to 3.6 tries per match with White and 2.6 tries per match with PDV.

Mallet will provide england with the best of both worlds, he will use the strengths of England and add to that a significant amount of running rugby.

I beleive Mallett can make England great, and if he is not there, I will be one happy Chappy.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Feb - 12:11

Portnoy wrote:OK. Let's have a list of national 'foreign' coaches that have won the biggest gong in their sport.

I can't imagine that it will be very long for major sports.

Professionalism is only what - 16 or 17 years old? In that space how many WCs have been played? Five?

It takes time for the pride of national ethos to be overcome by the need to win. How many times have England succeeded with a national 'national' coach in winning the biggest gong in our sport?

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 12:13

mawhis wrote:England need a coach from outside of the RFU system. Someone who will not be afraid to innovate and bring in new thinking and fresh ideas. If that person, is not english/british, then so be it. Wales aren't exactly struggling under their foreign coaches. Ireland have had a few as well.

I am talking about the World stage. Gatland has indeed done well - but no gongs yet.

Ireland have done well after Declan. But no gongs yet. (plus the foreigner had to be shooed away)

by bathmad Tue 14 Feb - 12:14

Foreign coaches don't know the players, the systems, or the problems of having such a dire league. They'd be completely hopeless.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 12:16

SecretFly wrote:
Portnoy wrote:OK. Let's have a list of national 'foreign' coaches that have won the biggest gong in their sport.

I can't imagine that it will be very long for major sports.

Professionalism is only what - 16 or 17 years old? In that space how many WCs have been played? Five?

It takes time for the pride of national ethos to be overcome by the need to win. How many times have England succeeded with a national 'national' coach in winning the biggest gong in our sport?

I'm talking of all sports, Secret - globally.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Feb - 12:22

Portnoy wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Portnoy wrote:OK. Let's have a list of national 'foreign' coaches that have won the biggest gong in their sport.

I can't imagine that it will be very long for major sports.

Professionalism is only what - 16 or 17 years old? In that space how many WCs have been played? Five?

It takes time for the pride of national ethos to be overcome by the need to win. How many times have England succeeded with a national 'national' coach in winning the biggest gong in our sport?

I'm talking of all sports, Secret - globally.

I know...but my point was let's stick to the actual game being discussed for the moment. You suggest an Englishman will naturally bring greater benefits to England as coach of the game called rugby. I'm saying maybe so if there was clear-cut evidence that such has been the case in the past. The truth is that an English coach has succeeded once in getting the biggest gong our sport offers. There are few grounds for suggesting English rugby coaches perform better than a 'foreigner' is ever likely to.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 12:27

SecretFly wrote:
Portnoy wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Portnoy wrote:OK. Let's have a list of national 'foreign' coaches that have won the biggest gong in their sport.

I can't imagine that it will be very long for major sports.

Professionalism is only what - 16 or 17 years old? In that space how many WCs have been played? Five?

It takes time for the pride of national ethos to be overcome by the need to win. How many times have England succeeded with a national 'national' coach in winning the biggest gong in our sport?

I'm talking of all sports, Secret - globally.

I know...but my point was let's stick to the actual game being discussed for the moment. You suggest an Englishman will naturally bring greater benefits to England as coach of the game called rugby. I'm saying maybe so if there was clear-cut evidence that such has been the case in the past. The truth is that an English coach has succeeded once in getting the biggest gong our sport offers. There are few grounds for suggesting English rugby coaches perform better than a 'foreigner' is ever likely to.

No. My argument is that an English manager (or a British one even) would understand the emotions etc.

So my preferred football coach would be Martin O'Neill - as I say - imbued in the culture.

by beshocked Tue 14 Feb - 12:29

Biltongbek I agree with you.

Portnoy you are perfect example of the inward looking,conservative view point that has seen England stutter in European competitions and on the international stage, both in rugby and football.

England simply haven't adapted to ever changing circumstances. England and the English clubs have been outfought and outmuscled - mostly at the breakdown. They can no longer rely on their superior fitness and power.

It's all about finding a successful blueprint that works.

You still live in the past when Tigers were dominating the GP and one of the powerhouses of Europe, also when England were world cup winners in 2003.

Since then the world of rugby has changed. The Irish clubs have exerted a stranglehold on the Heineken Cup.The Tigers though still dangerous have lost some of their aura of invincibility. New challengers have awoken to battle the Tigers in the AP.

England are no longer the dominant NH side of the 90s and early 2000s.

The Tigers and the other English clubs need to react to the Pro12 threat in the HC. England rugby needs to rise to the challenges thrown at them.

I believe a foreign coach is needed to make England a powerhouse once again.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Feb - 12:38

Portnoy wrote:
No. My argument is that an English manager (or a British one even) would understand the emotions etc.

So my preferred football coach would be Martin O'Neill - as I say - imbued in the culture.

Yeah, yeah - if there was an outstretched hand emoticon that did the 'so-so' rocking back and forth, I'd use it now.

I know your thoughts but I still say if a 'foreigner' wins...and wins a lot...then that's the only emotion English fans and players would need. Martin O'Neill might fire up his players with England speeches and in choosing the right kind of players with England attitude in them, but if he continued to turn out a losing side (in big Championship arenas) the 'emotion' would still be a shallow one - and he'd get his polite kick through the door with: "Yeah, thanks for that Martin... lovely bulldog stuff an'all, but we need to start winnin' like"

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 12:41

beshocked wrote:Biltongbek I agree with you.

Portnoy you are perfect example of the inward looking,conservative view point that has seen England stutter in European competitions and on the international stage, both in rugby and football.

England simply haven't adapted to ever changing circumstances. England and the English clubs have been outfought and outmuscled - mostly at the breakdown. They can no longer rely on their superior fitness and power.

It's all about finding a successful blueprint that works.

You still live in the past when Tigers were dominating the GP and one of the powerhouses of Europe, also when England were world cup winners in 2003.

Since then the world of rugby has changed. The Irish clubs have exerted a stranglehold on the Heineken Cup.The Tigers though still dangerous have lost some of their aura of invincibility. New challengers have awoken to battle the Tigers in the AP.

England are no longer the dominant NH side of the 90s and early 2000s.

The Tigers and the other English clubs need to react to the Pro12 threat in the HC. England rugby needs to rise to the challenges thrown at them.

I believe a foreign coach is needed to make England a powerhouse once again.

Of course you do beshocked,

You look forward to a globalistic form of rugby where neither localism, club, country nor tradition count.

However I believe that there far more deep-seated values. In that way I'm almost Celtic in my beliefs. Not nationalistic but culture-based.

Rugby is not Rollerball.

by **Biltong** Tue 14 Feb - 12:49

Portnoy, I don't agree with you about foreign coaches not understanding another countries' culture and emotions.

I will give you a few examples that has been topclass where a foreign coach has done a better job than a local coach.

Gary Kirsten took India from mid table rankings to the number 1 spot in the world and also ICC world champions. He was lauded by the players specifically for his ablity to work with them individually and help them become better cricketers.

Andy Flower has done the same with England cricket, he took them to number 1.

In SA we have had a foreign coach for the Sharks for many a year.

John Mitchell has taken the Lions to currie cup glory within 18 months of being their coach and they now play the most expansive rugby of all the SA currie cup teams.

There is no doubt a world class coach, can caoch any team, irrespective of nationality and origin.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 13:12

Not sport at the highest level Biltong.

Cricket is sliced like a salami into its' different forms like boxing - there's no universally acknowledged World Champions.

None of your rugby examples represent success at World level.

And I still wait for a significant of examples of successful foreign coach/managers in any major sport...

by Geordie Tue 14 Feb - 13:18

John Mitchell has taken the Lions to currie cup glory within 18 months of being their coach and they now play the most expansive rugby of all the SA currie cup teams.

Is that the same John Mitchell who was Englands forward coach during its most sucessful period....

by RubyGuby Tue 14 Feb - 13:21

Alex Ferguson hasn't done a bad job with an englsih team thumbsup

by **Biltong** Tue 14 Feb - 13:35

GeordieFalcon wrote:
John Mitchell has taken the Lions to currie cup glory within 18 months of being their coach and they now play the most expansive rugby of all the SA currie cup teams.

Is that the same John Mitchell who was Englands forward coach during its most sucessful period....

No this John mitchell was coaching the All Blacks at that time.

by **Biltong** Tue 14 Feb - 13:36

Portnoy wrote:Not sport at the highest level Biltong.

Cricket is sliced like a salami into its' different forms like boxing - there's no universally acknowledged World Champions.

None of your rugby examples represent success at World level.

And I still wait for a significant of examples of successful foreign coach/managers in any major sport...

Well I sincerely hope the england powers that be reason the same way you do, because I don't want to see him coaching england.

by geoff998rugby Tue 14 Feb - 13:56

Jose Mourinho fits the bill succesful in England and Italy and it looks like Spain as well.

by Geordie Tue 14 Feb - 14:12

biltongbek wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
John Mitchell has taken the Lions to currie cup glory within 18 months of being their coach and they now play the most expansive rugby of all the SA currie cup teams.

Is that the same John Mitchell who was Englands forward coach during its most sucessful period....
No this John mitchell was coaching the All Blacks at that time.

Ah he's not as good as Englands JM then Wink

by The Great Aukster Tue 14 Feb - 15:05

All the teams that have won the RWC have had a home coach, and in a statistically similar way - all the teams that have won the RWC have worn rugby boots. Half the teams in the last four of the recent RWC had foreign coaches - more than ever before, so is that a trend indicating foreign is the way to go!

No inference to winning the big gong can be attached to the nationality of the coach. The teams that win tend to be from those countries with the best players. How good the players are, is a function of playing numbers and coaching history. England have the most playing numbers so why aren't they topping the world rankings? The reason must be the coaching history that's the issue... in short the problem needs addressed long before national selection. Choosing a home coach who is historically part of that established system simply masks the deficiencies.

by red_stag Tue 14 Feb - 15:44

Portnoy wrote:And I still wait for a significant of examples of successful foreign coach/managers in any major sport...

Im fairly sure that no Englishman has ever won the Premiership as coach in soccer. It has always been a foreign manager.

by beshocked Tue 14 Feb - 15:52

red_stag wrote:
Portnoy wrote:And I still wait for a significant of examples of successful foreign coach/managers in any major sport...

Im fairly sure that no Englishman has ever won the Premiership as coach in soccer. It has always been a foreign manager.

Very true. I heard that. It's simply because English football managers are mediocre.

The supposed best - Redknapp hasn't won a major title.

Jim Mallinder despite being highly touted for the England job has won no major silverware yet.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 16:12

OK. On the World stage, are we stuck with just cricket?

Has there been no foreign World Champions' manager/coach in any major sport apart from cricket ODIs (or was it 20-20s)?

Of course that can happen in internationalist club/sides. But that's not the same measure.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 14 Feb - 16:21

An intelligient and thoughtful foreigner can easily learn about, understand and buy into another nations passion and spirit.

I heard Joe Schmidt say that when he came to Leinster, he started to read up on Irish history to try and undertand the national psyche. He also discussed the Leinster ethos, their ambitions and focus with the senior players.

He also brought a technical coaching ability that I think no Irish coach has. So he was a very good candidate for the Leinster job.

I think a South African like Mallet would easily understand the underlying English rugby style and passion.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 14 Feb - 16:22

Oh, and I also think that a fusion of foreign idea's with local ones can produce something better.

by miteyironpaw Tue 14 Feb - 16:38

In 2007, Jake White appointed Eddie Jones to be the technical adviser of the Springboks for the Rugby World Cup in France. Jones was credited as the brain behind the success of the South African Springboks side, which he helped lead to a 2007 World Cup Victory in France.

I get the feeling this could turn into "what have the Roman's ever done for us"?

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 17:28

For centuries / millennia the basic military tenet of winning wars has always been to know the but many have failed because they misunderstood their armies. After Waterloo as Wellington tried to press the Napoleonic armies back into France (and ultimately to Paris I suppose) but failed. Inside France the French armies held an extra resolve.

What I'm saying is that you have to understand and live the passion and the culture of the homeland to know what it means in all its various contexts.

What made Ireland win so convincingly against England in Dublin last year? Passion brought out of national pride (and the sheer resolve) of the players and manager/coach.

If 'General' Declan were not Irish, would they have had less intensity? I think that probably they would.

Put it this way. I understand the internal passions between the Home nations. But I'm buggered if I can ever feel the same about that between (say) Oz and NZ.

The feelings must go as deep but no way can I go more than empathy.

It's those irrational bondings that count.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 17:30

Portnoy wrote:For centuries / millennia the basic military tenet of winning wars has always been to know your enemy the but many have failed because they misunderstood their armies. After Waterloo as Wellington tried to press the Napoleonic armies back into France (and ultimately to Paris I suppose) but failed. Inside France the French armies held an extra resolve.

What I'm saying is that you have to understand and live the passion and the culture of the homeland to know what it means in all its various contexts.

What made Ireland win so convincingly against England in Dublin last year? Passion brought out of national pride (and the sheer resolve) of the players and manager/coach.

If 'General' Declan were not Irish, would they have had less intensity? I think that probably they would.

Put it this way. I understand the internal passions between the Home nations. But I'm buggered if I can ever feel the same about that between (say) Oz and NZ.

The feelings must go as deep but no way can I go more than empathy.

It's those irrational bondings that count.

by gowales Tue 14 Feb - 17:50

I thought Mallet was English

by Feckless Rogue Tue 14 Feb - 17:53

Sorry to be pedantic. After Waterloo, Napoleon abdicated and the House of Bourbon were returned to the throne. The French were then considered allies and Wellingtons army marched into Paris unopposed.

by Taylorman Tue 14 Feb - 17:54

Well robbie deans is now an ozzie to me. Its not about foreigners are best. Its just the best available are the best.

Foreign or domestic. Although AB fans might cringe at the thought of an overseas coach we are probably the biggest instigators of it.

3 of the four wcup semi finalists were NZ coached and with kirwan and a couple of others we were well represented.

This year I would be happier with Mallett or White than Hansen as I think Hansens true colours will start to appear under pressure.

An overseas coach might have ideas never contemplated here so thats a major plus that we wouldnt get otherwise.

Our cricket, league teams have been overeas coached for years so its nothing new.

Our coaches are mostly overseas to secure an ab post at sometime in the future. Should gatland coach the lions next year against oz itll be kiwi against kiwi.

A perfect match off for bragging rights at some point in the future.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 17:55

gowales wrote:I thought Mallet was English

"Mallett moved to Rhodesia with his family in 1956 when he was only six weeks old" according to Wiki.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 14 Feb - 17:56

Portnoy wrote:OK. On the World stage, are we stuck with just cricket?

Has there been no foreign World Champions' manager/coach in any major sport apart from cricket ODIs (or was it 20-20s)?

Of course that can happen in internationalist club/sides. But that's not the same measure.

Cricket wise, both India and Sri Lanka won ODI world cups with foreign coaches. India and England reached the top of the test match rankings with foreign coaches.

What other 'major' international team sports* are there to look at who's coaching? RL can't really be counted. Field Hockey? Basketball? Conkers? Foreign coaches tend to be a phenomenon associated with professional sport, so there's no real point in considering amateur games.

As a side consideration, there's an awful lot of foreign coaches of athletes winning medals/tournaments/events in athletics and other individual sports - tennis, swimming, cycling, ...

*In terms of global "reach", sports rank something like
Football
Cricket
Rugby
Field Hockey
Tennis
Volleyball
Golf
Basketball
Baseball
...

by mystiroakey Tue 14 Feb - 17:58

beshocked wrote:
red_stag wrote:
Portnoy wrote:And I still wait for a significant of examples of successful foreign coach/managers in any major sport...

Im fairly sure that no Englishman has ever won the Premiership as coach in soccer. It has always been a foreign manager.

Very true. I heard that. It's simply because English football managers are mediocre.

The supposed best - Redknapp hasn't won a major title.

Jim Mallinder despite being highly touted for the England job has won no major silverware yet.

not really a good point is it when only 4 managers have actually won the EPL in its 20 years.

if totenham can get third its possibly as much of a success as it is for fegusion/ancelotti winning the thing, due to the money for players totenham has, to get 4th 2 seasons ago was also as much of an acheivement!

the premiership is very much like F1 , you can only go so far. Man u , aresernal havent chnaged managers for donkies, yet have taken 15 of the 19 prem titles(those 15 won by only 2 managers)

by Portnoy Tue 14 Feb - 17:58

Feckless Rogue wrote:Sorry to be pedantic. After Waterloo, Napoleon abdicated and the House of Bourbon were returned to the throne. The French were then considered allies and Wellingtons army marched into Paris unopposed.

My understanding is that Napoleon did not abdicate immediately. Some skirmishes within the French border were repelled by the French and Bonaparte then succumbed to the inevitable.

by **Biltong** Tue 14 Feb - 17:59

Portnoy. These days the management of an international team consists of many people. Amongst them usually a sports psychologist. Your head coach needn`t be the only ” motivator”

When a B&I Lions squad is put together, the head coach is from one of the home unions, yet in your view he will be general to four nations, these nations have a history of warring each other, they have been ruled by England and the crown, yet each of these home nations have diverse cultures and traditions. How do you explain that?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 14 Feb - 18:05

biltongbek wrote:Portnoy. These days the management of an international team consists of many people. Amongst them usually a sports psychologist. Your head coach needn`t be the only ” motivator”

When a B&I Lions squad is put together, the head coach is from one of the home unions, yet in your view he will be general to four nations, these nations have a history of warring each other, they have been ruled by England and the crown, yet each of these home nations have diverse cultures and traditions. How do you explain that?

But the Lions don't win all that many series Biltong Wink

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