Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Dec 18/Jan 19

Just going to post a few graphics based on some player research I did across teams in Six Nations and Japan.  I haven't included any data on French or Japanese academy players as they're not easily available.

The figures are birth-countries only.  So a player may have moved when they were 4, 14 or 24.  It also includes players whose parents are from another country, has different nationality grandparents, etc.  

It includes players from PRO14 Championship, English Premiership, English Championship, French Top 14, French PROD2, Japan Top League.

Moved.

Moved

Moved

Hmm, who would be Ireland's 53 non-Irish born players?

Would this include Jordie Murphy who was born in Spain?

God.  Thank you, Pot.  Much appreciated.  

I love graphs cos they are pictures.  They get to the meat and bones quickly.

Ireland have kinda always gotten it in the neck publically as an example of the trade in SH players coming North.  Seems we're not as bad (or not any worse maybe is a better way of putting it) in that department than our neighbours.

Is Ireland's successful stint down to that very first graph?  And is it a coincidence that the team next to us is also 3rd in current World rankings?  The blueprint for sustainable quality?  

I sure bloody hope so!

the-goon wrote:Hmm, who would be Ireland's 53 non-Irish born players?

Would this include Jordie Murphy who was born in Spain?

Yes Id say so. Lots of people are returning home.

In 2015 about 400 people applied for Irish citizenship, this year the number is at about 7000 and growing and the amount of passport applications is about 150k.

Given that Ireland has a global diaspora of 72 million its hardly surprising considering we currently sit around the top 10 globally in GDP per capita.

So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

But there is a reason the direction of migration is mostly in the other direction, ebop. You might say talent but nobody could deny money.

Collapse2005 wrote:




In 2015 about 400 people applied for Irish citizenship, this year the number is at about 7000 and growing and the amount of passport applications is about 150k.

 How many of those are UK citizens looking to "beat" brexit?

ebop wrote:So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

Do you want to apply this logic only for Rugby there Ebop?

What about the Kiwi soccer team, current squad contains 23 players whereby 14 of them ply their trade in other countries, they have a foreign coach and the support team are all foreign.

Are the NH propping up the NZ soccer federation?

Thing is, in sport this is what happens.

ebop wrote:So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

Does anyone who doesn't live under a rock care?

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:




In 2015 about 400 people applied for Irish citizenship, this year the number is at about 7000 and growing and the amount of passport applications is about 150k.

 How many of those are UK citizens looking to "beat" brexit?

Lots however, given the strength of the Irish economy and employment rates its doubtful that Brexit accounts for all the growth in numbers.

eirebilly wrote:

ebop wrote:So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

Do you want to apply this logic only for Rugby there Ebop?

What about the Kiwi soccer team, current squad contains 23 players whereby 14 of them ply their trade in other countries, they have a foreign coach and the support team are all foreign.

Are the NH propping up the NZ soccer federation?

Thing is, in sport this is what happens.

NZ football, where are we ranked? 122nd

Rugby Tier 1 NH clubs and national sides that are ranked high are being propped up. Players and coaches. And people on here say the gap is closing? Ummm, only because of the influx of players, coaches and IP. Look at France. Well who cares about France. But England? Wow, hopeless.

Careful.

Once Upon a Time Ireland had an ultra 'strong' economy and we all know how that turned out.

Or do we? Memories seem to be less and less robust the deeper into this century we get. Soon most people will be forgetting what happened last week

Now let's get back to talking about the games next week. USA looks an easy one for us but we'll have to be careful of complacency.

Ireland are savvy with their tax system aren’t they? Some kind of tax haven for huge multinational companies that pay next to zero tax that fuels global inequality.

ebop wrote: And people on here say the gap is closing? Ummm, only because of the influx of players, coaches and IP.

Really? Do you remember Murray kidd?

ebop wrote:Ireland are savvy with their tax system aren’t they? Some kind of tax haven for huge multinational companies that pay next to zero tax that fuels global inequality.

New Zealand have their own very specific tax agreements with the Chinese government because China is NZs biggest trading partner. It just called being sensible.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Ireland are savvy with their tax system aren’t they? Some kind of tax haven for huge multinational companies that pay next to zero tax that fuels global inequality.

New Zealand have their own very specific tax agreements with the Chinese government because China is NZs biggest trading partner. It just called being sensible.

No, I think what we call Ireland and their tax dodging system are poor global citizens. Ireland doing god’s work to help those poor multinationals out to funnel money away from other countries by doing f**k all except set up a tax dodge. There’s your GDP Guns.

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Ireland are savvy with their tax system aren’t they? Some kind of tax haven for huge multinational companies that pay next to zero tax that fuels global inequality.

New Zealand have their own very specific tax agreements with the Chinese government because China is NZs biggest trading partner. It just called being sensible.

No, I think what we call Ireland and their tax dodging system are poor global citizens.

I certainly hope so. I'm not a 'citizen' of the Globe. I'm Irish.

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Ireland are savvy with their tax system aren’t they? Some kind of tax haven for huge multinational companies that pay next to zero tax that fuels global inequality.

New Zealand have their own very specific tax agreements with the Chinese government because China is NZs biggest trading partner. It just called being sensible.

No, I think what we call Ireland and their tax dodging system are poor global citizens

Haha, what are you talking about. All countries are free to set their own tax rates. Setting lower taxes isn't the same thing as dodging tax. The world is full of tax free havens, Ireland isn't a tax free haven at all it just sets lower corporate tax rates as a legitimate strategy for foreign direct investment.

A poor global citizen is a country that has little or no interest in doing good for the world. I think you will find that Ireland doesn't fall into that bracket at all. Watch this ted talk if you are in any doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X7fZoDs9KU

The speaker is the founder of the good country movement. Ireland ranks number 1 globally for doing good for the world. NZ comes in at 5th.

Id say if Xi Jinping of China got on his hotline to sexy Jacinda Ardern and asked her to grant tax breaks to huge Chinese companies that wanted to do business in NZ do you think she would say no? The NZ government is firmly in the Chinese governments pocket now.

God, 30 seconds was enough for me.............. a casually clothed guy walking around a bare stage giving the pep-speak for Globalisation.....

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Ireland are savvy with their tax system aren’t they? Some kind of tax haven for huge multinational companies that pay next to zero tax that fuels global inequality.

New Zealand have their own very specific tax agreements with the Chinese government because China is NZs biggest trading partner. It just called being sensible.

No, I think what we call Ireland and their tax dodging system are poor global citizens

Haha, what are you talking about. All countries are free to set their own tax rates. Setting lower taxes isn't the same thing as dodging tax. The world is full of tax free havens, Ireland isn't a tax free haven at all it just sets lower corporate tax rates as a legitimate strategy for foreign direct investment.

A poor global citizen is a country that has little or no interest in doing good for the world. I think you will find that Ireland doesn't fall into that bracket at all. Watch this ted talk if you are in any doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X7fZoDs9KU

The speaker is the founder of the good country movement. Ireland ranks number 1 globally for doing good for the world.

Wow, so ignorant about your own economy, hilarious

Your country is the #1 tax haven for U.S companies. That’s some achievement. At least Ireland are #1 in something and not a kiwi in sight.

“U.S. companies report more profits in Ireland, the top tax-avoidance destination in the world”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/04/inequality-is-worse-than-we-know-super-rich-really-do-avoid-lot-taxes/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f43f96af8db1

Avoiding tax isn't the same thing as dodging tax which implies breaking rules. Maybe you are naïve but all wealthy people and corporations seek to pay as little tax as possible. If you are in a position to charge less tax to attract more business its just common sense that you will do it.

The link above doesn't work so I cant comment on it but Id imagine it was written by a Trump supporter that wants to make 'Merica great again by bringing business home.

I think Ireland internet providers block the link because they don’t want the public to know how dodgy their tax haven is. Kind of like how China censors the internet.

ebop wrote:So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

No. If you’re going to draw conclusions then tell us how you arrived at them, please?

ebop wrote:I think Ireland internet providers block the link because they don’t want the public to know how dodgy their tax haven is. Kind of like how China censors the internet.

The head of the OECD tax policy unit has himself stated that Ireland is not a tax haven and that the country’s low corporation tax rate is not a problem. It has never been considered a tax haven by the EU either. A tax haven is a country that is defined as somewhere where there are no taxes, no transparency and no exchange of information. That clearly isn't the case in Ireland, don't believe everything you read online.

Ireland's corporate tax rates are low, lower than a lot of OECD member states and maybe that is not fair but there are no global rules on corporate tax rates so why shouldn't you set your own as an autonomous country?

Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

ebop wrote:I think Ireland internet providers block the link because they don’t want the public to know how dodgy their tax haven is. Kind of like how China censors the internet.

... like how kinda those big 'US' companies, same ones that are in Ireland, want to help China carry out their censorship.... and who hint and whisper that censorship itself - or as they now try to term it, 'curating', might be very helpful in allowing people make the 'right' choices politically and culturally.

Hmmmm.................... they're all nice people, the Chinese, the Apples, the Microsofts, the Googles and the Twitters.

Pot Hale wrote:

ebop wrote:So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

No.  If you’re going to draw conclusions then tell us how you arrived at them, please?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Gatland, Schmidt, Jones/Mitchell and Cotter (did the grunt work) leading the British/Irish charge. Not to mention the numerous SH coaches at NH clubs.. Then you have 436 professional players that have been ripped from Super Rugby and domestic SH competitions that clearly fill a NH skills gap that locals aren’t good enough to fill. This influx of SH players and especially coaches maintains the level of NH rugby that you all have become accustomed to.

ebop wrote:Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

Oxfam a charity with little to no expertise on financial regulations nor economics made the claim. Reliable source?

In any case if Pharma companies aren't recording as big profits in one country as another then there is very little stopping the less competitive country from offering more favourable terms such as lower tax rates.

Its the way of the world I'm afraid.

The irony of the article for me is that a charity is calling on a government for tax transparency when charities traditionally are some of the least transparent entities around. On top of that they benefit from all kinds of tax exemptions and exemptions around filing their annual accounts etc.

What has tax havens got to do with anything?

And the sh continue to underpay of course.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

Oxfam a charity with little to no expertise on financial regulations nor economics made the claim. Reliable source?

In any case if Pharma companies aren't recording as big profits in one country as another then there is very little stopping the less competitive country from offering more favourable terms such as lower tax rates.

Its the way of the world I'm afraid.

The irony of the article for me is that a charity is calling on a government for tax transparency when charities traditionally are some of the least transparent entities around.

Guns, here’s another one  

“Ireland has been branded as one of the worst tax havens in the world, on a par with countries like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands”

So you’re one of the worst tax havens. Or, maybe, one of the best!

Kind of like your rugby team. But Ireland can’t quite knock the Cayman Islands and Bermuda off the perch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-branded-one-of-world-s-worst-tax-havens-1.2901822?mode=amp

ebop wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

ebop wrote:So 436 players from SANZAAR countries prop up money losing NH clubs and their competitions. Would be interesting to see many NH players ply their trade in the SH. 4-5, maybe less?

No.  If you’re going to draw conclusions then tell us how you arrived at them, please?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Gatland, Schmidt, Jones/Mitchell and Cotter (did the grunt work) leading the British/Irish charge. Not to mention the numerous SH coaches at NH clubs.. Then you have 436 professional players that have been ripped from Super Rugby and domestic SH competitions that clearly fill a NH skills gap that locals aren’t good enough to fill. This influx of SH players and especially coaches maintains the level of NH rugby that you all have become accustomed to.

No, it’s not pretty obvious, Ebop You said 436 players. Then you use coaches. How do you conclude that 436 players were “ripped from Super Rugby and other domestic comps propping up money-losing clubs and competitions”?

Pot Hale wrote:What has tax havens got to do with anything?

Because Guns is really proud of Ireland’s GDP per capita

The SH can have their rugby players and coaches back as long as they leave their pub jockeys in the UK. Those glasses aren’t going to collect themselves.

ebop wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:What has tax havens got to do with anything?

Because Guns is really proud of Ireland’s GDP per capita

And has nothing to do with rugby player numbers and the purpose of the thread.

So it seems like a lot of SANZAAR players and coaches are keen to get away from the southern hemisphere and come up north. Is it because of the better weather? Could it be the delights of living in Newcastle, Coventry, Belfast etc? Or is it simply the desire to get away from the bitter, intellectually challenged local 'fans'?

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

Oxfam a charity with little to no expertise on financial regulations nor economics made the claim. Reliable source?

In any case if Pharma companies aren't recording as big profits in one country as another then there is very little stopping the less competitive country from offering more favourable terms such as lower tax rates.

Its the way of the world I'm afraid.

The irony of the article for me is that a charity is calling on a government for tax transparency when charities traditionally are some of the least transparent entities around.

Guns, here’s another one  

“Ireland has been branded as one of the worst tax havens in the world, on a par with countries like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands”

So you’re one of the worst tax havens. Or, maybe, one of the best!

Kind of like your rugby team. But Ireland can’t quite knock the Cayman Islands and Bermuda off the perch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-branded-one-of-world-s-worst-tax-havens-1.2901822?mode=amp

Again that is the opinion of a British charity. Did you know charities arent known for their transparency nor their expertise on economic nor financial matters. When you read articles dont you ever question what you are reading?

the-goon wrote:Hmm, who would be Ireland's 53 non-Irish born players?

Would this include Jordie Murphy who was born in Spain?

Yes they would. And Joey Carbery, Kieran Marmion, Angus Curtis, Jeremy Loughman, Nick McCarthy, Ultan Dillane, etc.

I believe that Australia's graph for foreign born players looks quite similar to some of the higher NH sides like Scotland. Why? because people want to live there.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

Oxfam a charity with little to no expertise on financial regulations nor economics made the claim. Reliable source?

In any case if Pharma companies aren't recording as big profits in one country as another then there is very little stopping the less competitive country from offering more favourable terms such as lower tax rates.

Its the way of the world I'm afraid.

The irony of the article for me is that a charity is calling on a government for tax transparency when charities traditionally are some of the least transparent entities around.

Guns, here’s another one  

“Ireland has been branded as one of the worst tax havens in the world, on a par with countries like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands”

So you’re one of the worst tax havens. Or, maybe, one of the best!

Kind of like your rugby team. But Ireland can’t quite knock the Cayman Islands and Bermuda off the perch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-branded-one-of-world-s-worst-tax-havens-1.2901822?mode=amp

Again that is the opinion of a British charity. Did you know charities arent known for their transparency nor their expertise on economic nor financial matters. When you read articles dont you ever question what you are reading?

Pot Hale, do you know how many NH coaches ply their trade in the SH? Probably not many, maybe zero. And I’m kinda glad that’s the case. Although Farrell seems like he would have something to offer.

Guns, have you heard of Joseph Stiglitz?

Me neither, but apparently he’s a Nobel Prize-winning economist and he said this

“Ireland’s controversial tax deals with companies such as Apple and Google are part of a corrupt global system, which is fuelling inequality and political extremism, including the rise of Donald Trump in the US“

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-tax-deals-help-fuel-global-inequality-joseph-stiglitz-1.3311435?mode=amp

Great work Pot.

One thing that People might be overlooking is that the vast majority of people playing in the NH and Japan are players from that country or other NH players.

Luckily for rugby the NH and Japan are able to provide jobs in excess of the local talent allowing others from disadvantaged areas get jobs. Add in the continued growth of the USA (part funded by NH clubs such as Sarries) and the development of structures for T2 sides in Europe is it surprising that the B6Ns is getting stronger while Tonga and Samoa are falling apart.

ebop wrote:...Not to mention the numerous SH coaches at NH clubs....

We have quite a few southerm hemisphere coaches in the English Premiership. However, last year, the top four teams were coached by an Irishman, a Welshman, and two Englishmen. The last New Zealand coach to win the Premiership was Warren Gatland in 2005, which seems like a long time ago. There are three New Zealand coaches in the premiership right now, and those three teams are currently in the bottom half of the table.

For all the talk I see on here of New Zealand giving "rugby IP" to England, there's really not a great deal of evidence the Premiership gets a boost from that source. Certainly, players like Nick Evans at Quins, and Jimmy Gopperth at Wasps are local heroes but, in terms of Premiership impact, English supporters are probably more aware of South Africans and Australians. John Mitchell is with the national set-up now but he's largely seen in England as someone who New Zealand wanted as head coach because he'd learned his trade over here, which was a case of "rugby IP" moving in the other direction.

The ONLY reason NZ coaches have been successful in the NH is because they’re miserable f**kers. FACT. Gatland, Mitchell, Hansen, Henry, Cotter, Schmidt - 3 smiles between them since 2000. It’s a trait that seems to get the best out of players though. It’s similar to the strange over representation of hard faced Scottish soccer managers in the Premier League!

So thanks for sending us your miserable f**kers!

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

Oxfam a charity with little to no expertise on financial regulations nor economics made the claim. Reliable source?

In any case if Pharma companies aren't recording as big profits in one country as another then there is very little stopping the less competitive country from offering more favourable terms such as lower tax rates.

Its the way of the world I'm afraid.

The irony of the article for me is that a charity is calling on a government for tax transparency when charities traditionally are some of the least transparent entities around.

Guns, here’s another one  

“Ireland has been branded as one of the worst tax havens in the world, on a par with countries like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands”

So you’re one of the worst tax havens. Or, maybe, one of the best!

Kind of like your rugby team. But Ireland can’t quite knock the Cayman Islands and Bermuda off the perch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-branded-one-of-world-s-worst-tax-havens-1.2901822?mode=amp

Again that is the opinion of a British charity. Did you know charities arent known for their transparency nor their expertise on economic nor financial matters. When you read articles dont you ever question what you are reading?

Pot Hale, do you know how many NH coaches ply their trade in the SH? Probably not many, maybe zero. And I’m kinda glad that’s the case. Although Farrell seems like he would have something to offer.

Guns, have you heard of Joseph Stiglitz?

Me neither, but apparently he’s a Nobel Prize-winning economist and he said this

“Ireland’s controversial tax deals with companies such as Apple and Google are part of a corrupt global system, which is fuelling inequality and political extremism, including the rise of Donald Trump in the US“

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-tax-deals-help-fuel-global-inequality-joseph-stiglitz-1.3311435?mode=amp

You didn't even read the article did you? I bet you didn't read the Washington post article either did you admit it?

Both articles are subscribers content only. Its impossible to know what they say without subscribing. Lol.

You have to laugh when someone claims Ireland's austerity was badly managed and yet Ireland is one of the case studies in how sensible austerity measures have lead to such a quick turn around in Irelands economy.

The Irish government took a lot of flak for the austerity measures in the UK media. See below article that actually works, and yet look at the Irish economy now!!!! Who is laughing now.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/sep/23/ireland-austerity-budgets-comment

"Ireland, in other words, is perilously close to locking itself into permanent depression and deflation, from which the only way out may be a default that would further damage consumer and business confidence. There is indeed a lesson for the UK from Ireland: how not to do it."

Lol.

Did you know that In 2010, Professor Stiglitz acted as an advisor to the Greek government during the Greek debt crisis during which time he claimed Greece would not default.    

In 2012, Stiglitz described the European austerity plans as a "suicide-pact".

Look at how well that turned out for Greece compared to Ireland's economy!!

The reason he disliked Ireland's austerity measures is because he has socialist leanings.