Welsh players, wages warning!!!

"Cardiff Blues chairman Peter Thomas has warned that the Welsh regions will no longer pay their top players when they are away on international duty."

Never a dull moment when Welsh rugby is concerned. Thought that RRW had an agreement with the WRU.
Does this mean that the regions/superclubs no longer agree with the agreement they agreed to or is this something different altogether?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17073410

I think he is correct the Ospreys have supplied most players for some time and they get the same slice of the pie as the Dragons, is that fair? Also it is a good way around the salary cap (not Cardiff Arms Park).

glamorganalun wrote:I think he is correct the Ospreys have supplied most players for some time and they get the same slice of the pie as the Dragons, is that fair? Also it is a good way around the salary cap (not Cardiff Arms Park).

Very true, but the agreement with the WRU is recent and a long while after the O's had 13 players in the starting Welsh XV. Mark Jones and Nugget were the other two.
So why moan about it now when they should have sorted it before if they weren't happy with the arrangements?

i would say 'central contracts' but doesnt the wru fund the regions anyway? if the blues hadent given so much money to ccfc we might be able to pay our players.

dogtooth wrote:i would say 'central contracts' but doesnt the wru fund the regions anyway? if the blues hadent given so much money to ccfc we might be able to pay our players.

Yes the regions get money from the WRU, but it looks to me as if they want more all of a sudden.

That's one way to drive your workforce out of the country...

A tad simplistic but I would rather Faletau gets a good dollpo of money rather than Pickering.
I would do Pickering's job for half his pay and would promise to be just as good,if not better.There you go,WRU.Give me a go!!

Aren't there enough idiots in the WRU already Taff?

Have you already been turned down,Rory?

Yeah, unfortunately they don't accept anyone who doesn't have a poster of Dan Lydiate on their wall

And you have 2!!

Yeah, 2 posters of Stephen Ferris

Ferris is a fine back-up for the main man,I grant you.

Taffineastbourne wrote:A tad simplistic but I would rather Faletau gets a good dollpo of money rather than Pickering.
I would do Pickering's job for half his pay and would promise to be just as good,if not better.There you go,WRU.Give me a go!!

What actually is Pickerings job anyone know?

The Regions earn their money from the gates at home fixtures. Paying out significant wages for International squad players who only are available for half a dozen games is, as Peter Thomas says, not good business.

All this talk about the WRU paying the Regions must also be taken into perspective. The money comes from the televising the Region's own fixtures and the reciepts from International fixtures featuring the Region's players!

If the Ospreys are forking out £200k a year to keep Adam Jones, why should they pay his wages for the 30 weeks a season that he is with Wales?

Well, with all the talk from the regions lately of not having enough money, and players going abroad, and talk of funding different regions different amounts of money, and now the regions suggesting that they won't pay their international players when they're away, all leads me to think that central contracts are around the corner. That would give the regions more money for advertising and marketing (the Scarlets CEO recently said they spend virtually zero on marketing as all their money went on players), more for squad players, would give the WRU even better access to players, etc.

The question is: when will it happen?

If the WRU just pays the top players, i:e; central contracts, then the issue is solved. Them Regions should actually take into account that some players just get called up but don't actually make the squad. Who is going to pay those guys?

I see where Thomas is coming from, take Adam Jones for example, lets say he is on £350k a year at the Ospreys. He has played 8 games for us this season, 7 starts and 1 sub appearence. 5 European games and 2 Rabo Direct starts and 1 sub appearence. We are paying all that money to keep him in Wales but are the Ospreys really getting value for money?

Because at the moment he is on £43,750 a game for the Ospreys! and we only have another 7 games left to play, 2 more if we make the league final. He will miss at least 3 of those because of the 6 Nations though, so he's still looking at over 20 grand for an Ospreys game!

[quote="Griff"]Well, with all the talk from the regions lately of not having enough money, and players going abroad, and talk of funding different regions different amounts of money, and now the regions suggesting that they won't pay their international players when they're away, all leads me to think that central contracts are around the corner. That would give the regions more money for advertising and marketing (the Scarlets CEO recently said they spend virtually zero on marketing as all their money went on players)...[/quote]

Isn't that the way it is supposed to be? Isn't winning games the best possible form of marketing?

Don't know why Llanelli would want to waste money on posters, school visits and hog roast beer tents anyway. They've always been the regional team of west Wales.

Casterelli, why does any company bother to do advertising if it's such a waste of money? Tell coca cola to scrap their marketing budget cos Casterelli doesn't see the point in it. Our regions' crowds are hardly busting at the seems are they? A bit of proper marketing could therefore be an option if there was a budget available for it. We're not just talking a billboard poster or two in Cwmbach high street mind. Cos that's what they're all doing at the moment, and that's clearly not working.

Griff wrote:Casterelli, why does any company bother to do advertising if it's such a waste of money? Tell coca cola to scrap their marketing budget cos Casterelli doesn't see the point in it. Our regions' crowds are hardly busting at the seems are they? A bit of proper marketing could therefore be an option if there was a budget available for it. We're not just talking a billboard poster or two in Cwmbach high street mind. Cos that's what they're all doing at the moment, and that's clearly not working.

Not a great example Griff.

Coca cola, rightly or wrongly, is considered a quality soft drink. They spend on marketing to try and differentiate themselves from other soft drinks.

Throwing money at marketing the superclubs in their current format, to use your analogy, would be the equivalent of millions being spent on marketing Happy Shopper Rola Cola.

Casartelli wrote:

Griff wrote:Casterelli, why does any company bother to do advertising if it's such a waste of money? Tell coca cola to scrap their marketing budget cos Casterelli doesn't see the point in it. Our regions' crowds are hardly busting at the seems are they? A bit of proper marketing could therefore be an option if there was a budget available for it. We're not just talking a billboard poster or two in Cwmbach high street mind. Cos that's what they're all doing at the moment, and that's clearly not working.

Not a great example Griff.

Coca cola, rightly or wrongly, is considered a quality soft drink. They spend on marketing to try and differentiate themselves from other soft drinks.

Throwing money at marketing the superclubs in their current format, to use your analogy, would be the equivalent of millions being spent on marketing Happy Shopper Rola Cola.

You know, Santa Claus used to dress in green. He was made red to suit Coca Cola's advertising. Pretty strong adverts eh .

Thats a modern myth Morgan. Just like we supposedly only use 10% of our brains.
The symbolism of Santa Claus is based on red shrooms... check it out.

If the regions are looking not to pay players when they are called up at expeact the WRU to, them will the WRU not just take this out of the £2 million they give each region. I thought they funded the regions as compension for calling players up.

The regions have to release players during international windows thats IRB regulations, the WRU pay to call them up longer than IRB regulations. ie a week earlier for 6 nations and that game in Nov.

If I was the WRU and chairmen said they didn't want to pay players when they are called up, they I'd say fine. The WRU will stop giving you funds and we'll pay the players we call up for the additional time we call them up. You still have to pay them in IRB windows as per IRB rules, we'll just pay the additional time we wish them, an cut your funding to match.

Kingshu wrote:If the regions are looking not to pay players when they are called up at expeact the WRU to, them will the WRU not just take this out of the £2 million they give each region. I thought they funded the regions as compension for calling players up.

The regions have to release players during international windows thats IRB regulations, the WRU pay to call them up longer than IRB regulations. ie a week earlier for 6 nations and that game in Nov.

If I was the WRU and chairmen said they didn't want to pay players when they are called up, they I'd say fine. The WRU will stop giving you funds and we'll pay the players we call up for the additional time we call them up. You still have to pay them in IRB windows as per IRB rules, we'll just pay the additional time we wish them, an cut your funding to match.

Agreed and it looks to me like the superclubs/regions are now demanding a bigger slice of the pie and are not keen on having Welsh international players on their books in the future. In other words, the superclubs/regions want the WRU to pay more for less.
I'm not sure how Peter Thomas can say that he won't pay his players when they are on international duty as both parties would have signed legally binding employment contracts. If he does that then his players will refuse to play for Cardiff Blues.

Massive pay cuts afoot according to Dr Gwyn;
"Former Wales captain Gwyn Jones has warned the nation's players face "massive" pay cuts amid a cash crisis."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17092404

I've no sympathy for the Blues or the Ospreys.

If salaries are to high in Wales they are partly responsible. After all, they have poached many good players from the Scarlets and Dragons and have inflated Welsh Players salaries since the game went regional. They took a gamble on that success would increase their attendances and keeping their rival welsh regions down. It hasn't worked and now they are complaining about the result.

You only have to look at the amounts they paid for people like Bearman, Phillips, Fussell, Tovey, Sweeney, Byrne etc.

The worst part is they paid way to much for most of these players and totally inflated welsh players salaries by themselves when there was no demand. Now that there is they dont have the resources left to secure their main assets. Basically its like a kid spending all his pocket money each week and wondering why they cant afford a new PS3 or bike.

Take responsibiltiy first - dont go crying to the WRU when your original plans failed.

The more this argument goes on, the more it becomes clear we need central contracts and the regions to be brought under the Unions heel.

Who pushed up the wages in Welsh rugby so high?
Oh yeah the same idiots who are now crying to say their running out of money... the benefactors.

Fair play most of them have put their money in, but they also create the problem of slitting each others throats over a small talent pool, and their guilty of blocking young Welsh players by signing over the hill players from the Tri Nations and Islands.

How many times have the Ospreys gone pillaging Scarlets players over the years and out bidding them for their own players?
Mike Phillips, Lee Bryne? The Scarlets have practically bankrupted themselves to keep pace and now the Ospreys are in a mess themselves.

This is probably the perfect time for the WRU to show some good leadership and wrestle control of the regions off the benefactors and copy the Irish model of centrally contracting and distributing evenly all the Welsh playing talent.

No one can say over all the benefactors have done a bad job but in retrospect if their money has run out, so has their usefulness to Welsh rugby.

Is the WRU flush with cash? Have they been building up a nest egg that the regions want to get their mits on?

Or are Cardiff and Ospreys looking around now realising that while they have been effectively burning money renting half empty stadiums the Scarlets and Dragons have gotten their houses in a bit of order and there is a risk in 2-3 years time that Dragons might just start to nudge qualification to the HCup, an achievement that would be great for Dragons but would terminally impact the cashflow of either Cardiff or Ospreys.

It wont affect the cash flow at all, because all the money the regions generate from competitions is given to the WRU and divided equally between the regions.
For example in money terms the Dragons arent penalised for being in the Amlin Cup, all the regions are, because collectiveily they have generated less revenue so have less split between them.

I'd much rather be where the Ospreys are than the Dragons as well. the Dragons have 4-5 quality players and a lot of rubbish, Lydiate has already said he wouldnt mind going to the Blues to play alongside Warburton. Charteris is leaving, Tovey is leaving and Brew is leaving. Who steps up to fill these voids? Steffan Jones is the only quality played at fly half who can step into Toveys shoes and they have no like for like player anywhere else.

Now look at the Ospreys. Shane and Bowe are off, as is Scottish international winger Nikki Walker, but we have 5 quality young wingers waiting for chances.
Bennett may leave but we have Scott Baldwin ready, as well as 2 other Welsh international hookers.
Cai Griffiths may leave but he is not worth the £180k a season he is paid, and Jo Rees is having an awesome season anyway.

The fact is any potential losses the Ospreys may suffer we have a quality young player who needs games anyway. Were second in the league at the moment, and that is after losing Hook, Phillips, Bryne, Holah, Jerry Collins, and several others last season.

Even losing the coaches is no big deal because 99% of Ospreys fans wanted them gone anyway and most are happy to give Tandy a chance, he has proven himself at Premiership level and is a good coach, who likes to get the ball to the wingers with space.

AlynDavies wrote:The more this argument goes on, the more it becomes clear we need central contracts and the regions to be brought under the Unions heel.

Who pushed up the wages in Welsh rugby so high?
Oh yeah the same idiots who are now crying to say their running out of money... the benefactors.

Fair play most of them have put their money in, but they also create the problem of slitting each others throats over a small talent pool, and their guilty of blocking young Welsh players by signing over the hill players from the Tri Nations and Islands.

How many times have the Ospreys gone pillaging Scarlets players over the years and out bidding them for their own players?
Mike Phillips, Lee Bryne? The Scarlets have practically bankrupted themselves to keep pace and now the Ospreys are in a mess themselves.

This is probably the perfect time for the WRU to show some good leadership and wrestle control of the regions off the benefactors and copy the Irish model of centrally contracting and distributing evenly all the Welsh playing talent.

No one can say over all the benefactors have done a bad job but in retrospect if their money has run out, so has their usefulness to Welsh rugby.

That's what happens though isn't it Alyn when employers are forced to fish from a pool with limited resources? It becomes an employees market where those prospective employees are able to demand higher salaries simply because there aren't many of them. If it was an open market and each of the 4 Welsh superclubs/regions could employ whoever they liked regardless of nationality then salaries would not be artificially inflated amongst Welsh players.

The O's brought in Phillips and Byrne to improve their team and of course they offered them better deals. Can't grumble about that. Also just a reminder, Phillips moved to Cardiff Blues before the O's got their hands on him.

The "benefactors" haven't run out of money either and Welsh rugby needs their financial clout.

Peter Thomas may have a point as it seems, although i'm not sure, that the £6m paid out by the WRU only covers the periods outside of the official IRB windows.

I'm not so sure Peter does have a point.

Firstly the WRU provide part funding. Secondly during the 60% of the time they are there I would argue they drive up the standards at the Regional game due to their international experience.

Given that the Regions have brought in a 3.5 million salary cap the WRU should now drop the Foreign quota to Zero. If they cant afford to pay Welsh players it stands to reason they wont be able to afford any good foreigners., thus limiting oppertunities for Welsh Youngsters and not offering any additional ability to the Regional game.

changes are certainly coming....would love to have a crystal ball!

Welshmushroom wrote:Given that the Regions have brought in a 3.5 million salary cap the WRU should now drop the Foreign quota to Zero. If they cant afford to pay Welsh players it stands to reason they wont be able to afford any good foreigners., thus limiting oppertunities for Welsh Youngsters and not offering any additional ability to the Regional game.

I can see where your coming from with the drop the NWQ quota to zero, however maybe that could be phased in over the next few seasons to give the regions a fighting chance of bringing in/developing players to fill the gaps that the NWQs currently occupy. After all if you did just clear out the NWQs this summer there would be some drop in qulity in most, if not all of the sides.

Welshmushroom wrote:I'm not so sure Peter does have a point.

Firstly the WRU provide part funding. Secondly during the 60% of the time they are there I would argue they drive up the standards at the Regional game due to their international experience.

Given that the Regions have brought in a 3.5 million salary cap the WRU should now drop the Foreign quota to Zero. If they cant afford to pay Welsh players it stands to reason they wont be able to afford any good foreigners., thus limiting oppertunities for Welsh Youngsters and not offering any additional ability to the Regional game.

I have a feeling that the £3.5m salary cap announcement plus this latest outburst could be political posturing of sorts, designed to prepare the ground for the storm that looms.
Yes, "the WRU provide part funding", but if they want to keep the top players in Wales, which they do and so does Gatland, then they're going to have to chip in a bit more by the look of it. Otherwise all parties will suffer and Gatland won't have the access he wants to many of these players and they certainly won't be available for games outside the official IRB windows, unless the WRU pay the French or English clubs concerned for access to those who don't have release clauses in their contracts. I don't think any of the current players abroad do have release clauses come to think of it.

If the NWQ quota is reduced to zero then say hello to further inflation of mediocre Welsh player salaries and more haggling with Derwyn.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Given that the Regions have brought in a 3.5 million salary cap the WRU should now drop the Foreign quota to Zero. If they cant afford to pay Welsh players it stands to reason they wont be able to afford any good foreigners., thus limiting oppertunities for Welsh Youngsters and not offering any additional ability to the Regional game.

I can see where your coming from with the drop the NWQ quota to zero, however maybe that could be phased in over the next few seasons to give the regions a fighting chance of bringing in/developing players to fill the gaps that the NWQs currently occupy. After all if you did just clear out the NWQs this summer there would be some drop in qulity in most, if not all of the sides.

Younger players can fill the gaps left by our international players moving abroad.

To all;

We have 4 pro teams in Wales. Will there ever be enough home grown talent to make all 4 competitive?
What if there aren't enough Welsh FH's, No.8's, etc to go around? Do we just make do with what players we have just because they have to be Welsh even though they maybe rubbish and may never make the grade? Have not NWQ players enriched our domestic game in Wales?
It seems to be a particularly Welsh obsession that having NWQ players is considered to be a bad thing by some when all of our neighbours don't seem to think that way.

Lets be honest about the state of the regions using just Welsh Qualified players the regions could feild

BLUES

Czekaj / Fish
Halfpenny / James
Henson / Hewitt
Roberts / Evans
Cuthbert / Mustoe
Sweeney / ????
Williams / Rees

Jenkins / Hobbs (or is it Andrews?)
Thomas / Breeze
Andrews (or is it Hobs?) / Yapp
Davies / Cook
Tito / Down
Petorious / Hamilton
Warburton / Williams
????? / ?????

DRAGONS

Thomas
Brew / Pool
Hughes / Riley
Smith / Robling
Harris / Pewter
Tovey / Jones
W Evans / J Evans

Williams / ????
Burns / Jones
Buck / Gustafson
Jones / Sidoli
Charteris / ????
Lydiate / Evans
Thomas / Groves
Faletau / Ellis

OSPREYS

Davies / Fussel
Walker / Phillips
Bishop / Parker
Beck / Owen
Willaims / Dirkson
Biggar / Morgan
Webb / Issacs

James / Jones
Bennett / Hibbard
Jones / Griffiths
Evans / Gough
Jones / King
Thomas / Bearman
Tipuric / ????
Jones / Allen

SCARLETS

Evans / Newton
North / Fenby
Williams / Maule
Davies / Warren
Li Williams / Le Williams
Preistland / Jones
Knoyle / Davies

Thomas / Jones
Rees / Owens
Thomas / Gardnerer
Reed / Shingler
Day / Welch
McCusker / Pugh
Turnbull / Edwards
Murphy / Gilbert

That is just off the top of my head and using the squads that are there already. I appreciate that some players may leave/retire etc, however then there are others in the squads who will want to step up and prove themselves, after all if Duncan Jones wasn't injured before the '05 6Ns would we be worried about Gethin Jenkins, or would he be Duncan's understudy still.

Cardiff Dave - I do see your point about NWQs helping to develop some players (King at the Scarlets helped bring on the wealth of centres we have now). However he also have had so much dross NWQ players that they are no use at all to us. Maybe a system like the Irish are going to have would be a better fit?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Cardiff Dave - I do see your point about NWQs helping to develop some players (King at the Scarlets helped bring on the wealth of centres we have now). However he also have had so much dross NWQ players that they are no use at all to us. Maybe a system like the Irish are going to have would be a better fit?

Glad you see my point and having any kind of dross is no use whether it's NWQ or Welsh.

rumoured that tom smith is off to london irish from the ospreys

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Cardiff Dave - I do see your point about NWQs helping to develop some players (King at the Scarlets helped bring on the wealth of centres we have now). However he also have had so much dross NWQ players that they are no use at all to us. Maybe a system like the Irish are going to have would be a better fit?

I can't speak for the rest, but how many "dross NWQ players" have Cardiff Blues had over the last say 3 or 4 years?
Can't think of many except for SNK, but he was a decent full back asked to play outside half for some reason. Dan Parks another maybe, but he's done what's been asked of him.
Rush, Blair, Tito, Filise, Molitika, Laulala, Paterson, Pretorious etc have all been excellent signings and we certainly wouldn't have won the EDF, the Amlin or got to an HEC semi without most of them, that's for sure.

Moses Levetisau

gcBlues wrote:Moses Levetisau

Aye, but that was yonks ago.

Sorry Cardiff Dave,have to disagree.

Rush was a great signing in his first couple of seasons. Bar a couple of games here and there he has not been brilliant this last 2 seasons. Granted a good signing first of all but they should have let him go to Ulster in the end.

Blair had a good first season. Been solid but unimpressive since including a long stint off with injury. Maybe not a disaster signing but ive only ever rated him as average.

Molitika was maybe a good signing in his first stint at the Blues. Since they re-signed him he's been rubbish.

Parks - enough said.

Filise - Good in open play but cant scrummage for a Tighthead thats your bread and butter. In fairness I always suspected that Blues would have got more out of him at Loosehead (which is the position he used to play in his early years).

Paterson - I really dont get what people see in this guy. everytime i see him he does the basics but I wouldnt say he's stand out. To me this guy is only keeping a Welsh Blindside out of regular game time. Defnitely not International Class.

It would be a different story if our Regions where buying the best players in their positions. I had no problems seeing Regan King and Collins plying their trade here. What bothers me is when I see substandard International players from other countries plying their trade here. Keep in mind we only have 60 starting spots each week so every spot you give away should at least be to a "World Class Player" whcih can be jusitifed.

The Dragons annoy me the worst in fairness. Signing Bedford (Former English U20) for example. Signing a non welsh scrum half by definition is stupid. There is tones of young and experienced welsh talent in this position.

Let English and French Leagues worry about paying the Tier 2 Nations players. Our goal should be to develop a system where spots are filled by Academy players.

I dont buy the excuse that these players are needed. Yes maybe at the beginning this would have been true but the Regions have been operating since 2003. Any weak positions should have been identified and Youth programs that should have started paying off already should be applied now.

Its when you realize that infact this is a area where some of the Regions are totally mismanaging themselves.

Maybe we just don't have the talent in some of those positions.

Welshmushroom wrote:Sorry Cardiff Dave,have to disagree.

No need to apologise Mushroom.
I stopped reading your reply after you rated Ben Blair as only ever being "average".
By the way Rush was MOM against Ulster last week.
Have you ever attended a live Cardiff Blues game?

Welsh,

The signing of Bedford infuriates most of us Dragons fans as well, we have W Evans (admittedly off form this season) and young J Evans so just can't see wh ywe signed him.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Sorry Cardiff Dave,have to disagree.

No need to apologise Mushroom.
I stopped reading your reply after you rated Ben Blair as only ever being "average".
By the way Rush was MOM against Ulster last week.
Have you ever attended a live Cardiff Blues game?

I'm a Dragons fan so attending a Blues match does not apeal to me. I have infact been at some live Blues games though albeit from a Derby perspective. I do watch a lot of Rugby though.

Rush did have a good game against Ulster. But your missing my point. The standards he set in his early seasons at the Blues are slipping. I remember him playing very well in almost every game he played in for the Blues. Look at Martyn Williams - hes only a shadow of his former self. Williams during the Ulster game barely touched the ball. Basically a sign to me that both players are now past it.

Blair's been out for like 15 months. Maybe a bit harsh calling him average. He was very good for the Blues in the opening 2 seasons. But given there are many Welsh Prospects out there and given they have Halfpenny there as well I really dont see the need for him.

Look my point in all this is that the Regions are looking to emulate the Club game in England. They shouldnt look to do this. Our 4 Regions should operate like mini international sides. Having non international calibre players in your lineup wont drive up standards, it lowers them. Davies at the Scarlets is telling his young guns "if you make the starting 15 for the Scarlets, you have a real chance with Wales" - thats how it should be.

Lets be honest here, we in Wales believe somehow that these SH players will teach us something about the game. This is a myth.

The SH sides are not more skillful than us. The major difference is that they are generally better prepared, conditioned, play less games (which increases the intensity of matches they do play in) and are looked after better. Their entire model works round the International game because if they do not dominate the World rankings it seriously impacts the income each of their Unions make.

We need to invest any money we can spare on making sure young players are identified and given chances early in the Rabbo. Scarlets are doing it already. Ospreys have got great development pathways at the moment too.

Dragons and Blues are way behind in this respect. How can Harry Robinson for example be good enough for Wales 7, Wales Training Squad and barely feature for the Blues. Granted he is young but if you invest in him early you will probably develop him into a terrific talent.

In short every penny spent on some random 5 cap wonder could have been invested in training and educating 5 youngsters on development contracts. I know what I would rather see.