Vitali Klitschko vs Dereck Chisora discussion

First topic message reminder :

Here you go, fellas.

azania wrote:I'd rather have dimittenko, arreola, pulev or even Helenius over mormeck. even evander is better than mormeck. It insults the boxing public.

I'm glad you said that. Shows once again that you don't read nearly enough about boxing.

Dimitrenko is AWOL. He has refused to enter contract negotiations for the fights on the grounds that he's not ready. He's right - he isn't. He had a shot if he could have beaten Chambers - he failed - and so he's now trying to rebuild his career.

Arreola is up in the summer, apparently. Wlad wanted Arreola in the spring - but Cristobal's team asked for more time -to fully rebuild after a couple of demoralising defeats. Certainly - he's looked better in his last few.

Helenius just "beat" Chisora remember. Further - he turned down an opportunity for the elimination tourney to be Wlad's next opponent - the one where all the challengers pulled out (Boytsov, Helenius, Chambers).

As for Evander - the K-bros have declared that they will never fight Evander Holyfield as he is one of their boxing idols.

Actually - I respect them for that. He's nowhere near a top 10 in the world, he hasn't done nearly enough to merit a title shot - they don't have to fight him - and I'd rather Vitali's limited power didn't connect 2-300 times with Evander's 48 yo evasive skills. Boxing could do without Holy in a hospital and he deserves better.

I simply refuse to believe that mormeck is the best available opponent.

azania wrote:I simply refuse to believe that mormeck is the best available opponent.

Believe what you will.

Pulev is probably the best alternative - but there were issues - namely that he's only had 15 fights; was scheduled to be fighting in January with a fight against Dimitrenko set for next month.

If he beats Dimitrenko (and I have a hunch that he will - at least - he should) - I would be surprised if Pulev didn't get a call from Boente for later in the year.

The EBU seems the standard means by which one gains a title fight these days - and it has allowed several unworthies - Sosnowski, Harrison to go above themselves.

So Azania Klitschko is overrated.According to two of the judges he won 10 rounds and the other judge gave Chisora one round. Sounds pretty one sided to me. For a fighter who's coming to the end of his career I don't think it was a bad effort.

I had a feeling this might happen. Chisora performed credibly, given his tag as big underdog. But little more than that. But nothing has really changed. The same arguments against Vitali remain.

Chisora fought as well as he did against Hellenius, if not better. Klitschko won comfortably enough indicating the gap still exists. Realistically, Vitali is almost 41. There have been few heavyweights of his calibre at that age. Yet some will try and use this as evidence he was never that great? I think the most poignant thing is that even at 40 years old he still looks to be comfortably above everyone except his brother. If we had peak all time greats out there then maybe his performance against Chisora would be insufficient. But there isnt. I dont think Vitali is slow considering his age and relative to the other heavyweights out there. Chisora came to fight and made a fight of it. But beyond that, as with the Adamek fight, I dont really see where the imminent danger is out there. The older he gets, the harder it becomes. But still dont see how Haye with his occasional big looping punches does any better than Chisora did.

rapidringsroad wrote:So Azania Klitschko is overrated.According to two of the judges he won 10 rounds and the other judge gave Chisora one round. Sounds pretty one sided to me. For a fighter who's coming to the end of his career I don't think it was a bad effort.

So what? I scored 4-5 rounds to Vit. Yes he is over-rated. No where as good as he was. He is slower, more ponderous and extremely limited footwork. At this stage of his career, he is over-rated. I'll go so far as to say he is pretty damn useless to be classified as the best in the world. He isn't. His brother is far better than he is and always has been.

The judges also scored for Williams over Lara. Lets all now claim that Lara actually lost. After all that's how the judges scored it. The judges also scored it for Helenius over Chisora. Lets all acknowledge that the judges never call it very wrong and robberies never occur.

Vit won fair and square. But to give Chis only 2 rounds is plain daft and wrong.

The fight actually reminded me a bit of Lewis' fight with Mavrovic. A fight which on paper, should have been fairly comfortable but turned out to be more tricky due to the challenger's pressure, chin and workrate.
Credit to Chisora for never taking a step backwards and constantly pushing the fight.
Vitali should probably retire. He's not the fighter he once was. Having said that, I still think he'll beat Haye as his ambush, headhunter style won't be very effective against Vitali.

Azania -

Vitali beat Chisora quite comfortably. I scored the fight 9-3.
You actually predicted Chisora would win and get robbed, so Vitali is still obviously better than you thought he was.

J.Benson II wrote:The fight actually reminded me a bit of Lewis' fight with Mavrovic. A fight which on paper, should have been fairly comfortable but turned out to be more tricky due to the challenger's pressure, chin and workrate.
Credit to Chisora for never taking a step backwards and constantly pushing the fight.
Vitali should probably retire. He's not the fighter he once was. Having said that, I still think he'll beat Haye as his ambush, headhunter style won't be very effective against Vitali.

Azania -

Vitali beat Chisora quite comfortably. I scored the fight 9-3.
You actually predicted Chisora would win and get robbed, so Vitali is still obviously better than you thought he was.

My prediction was for Vit to win a close and competitive fight. It was competitive but Vit won clearly. I had it 8-4.

The scoring was a joke though. Not a single judge gave Chis a round after 4. Ridiculous. Hope the Ks fight out of germany. I doubt it seeing as they see themselves as vulnerable and want the safety net of hometown decisions.

azania wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:The fight actually reminded me a bit of Lewis' fight with Mavrovic. A fight which on paper, should have been fairly comfortable but turned out to be more tricky due to the challenger's pressure, chin and workrate.
Credit to Chisora for never taking a step backwards and constantly pushing the fight.
Vitali should probably retire. He's not the fighter he once was. Having said that, I still think he'll beat Haye as his ambush, headhunter style won't be very effective against Vitali.

Azania -

Vitali beat Chisora quite comfortably. I scored the fight 9-3.
You actually predicted Chisora would win and get robbed, so Vitali is still obviously better than you thought he was.

My prediction was for Vit to win a close and competitive fight. It was competitive but Vit won clearly. I had it 8-4.

The scoring was a joke though. Not a single judge gave Chis a round after 4. Ridiculous. Hope the Ks fight out of germany. I doubt it seeing as they see themselves as vulnerable and want the safety net of hometown decisions.

Or they know thats where fanbase is there and thats where they make the most money selling out venues.

azania wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:The fight actually reminded me a bit of Lewis' fight with Mavrovic. A fight which on paper, should have been fairly comfortable but turned out to be more tricky due to the challenger's pressure, chin and workrate.
Credit to Chisora for never taking a step backwards and constantly pushing the fight.
Vitali should probably retire. He's not the fighter he once was. Having said that, I still think he'll beat Haye as his ambush, headhunter style won't be very effective against Vitali.

Azania -

Vitali beat Chisora quite comfortably. I scored the fight 9-3.
You actually predicted Chisora would win and get robbed, so Vitali is still obviously better than you thought he was.

My prediction was for Vit to win a close and competitive fight. It was competitive but Vit won clearly. I had it 8-4.

The scoring was a joke though. Not a single judge gave Chis a round after 4. Ridiculous. Hope the Ks fight out of germany. I doubt it seeing as they see themselves as vulnerable and want the safety net of hometown decisions.

7 of his last 13 fights have been outside Germany.

Money doesn't come from the venues but TV. They sold out 12,500 last night. Same capacity as MEN or 02.

JB11

The bigger challenge the more likely he stays home.

azania wrote:JB11

The bigger challenge the more likely he stays home.

You think he saw Chisora as a huge challenge? It was just seen as a routine defence. Lewis and Sanders were the biggest challengers in his last 13 fights and he fought both of them in the States.
Like all other boxers, he fights where the his support lies. As champion, he also has the right to fight where he chooses.

azania wrote:Money doesn't come from the venues but TV. They sold out 12,500 last night. Same capacity as MEN or 02.

No money comes into venue azania. The demand for Klitschko tickets is far higher in Germany than the UK. Higher prices can be charged. Its questionable if Vitali v Chisora would have even sold out the MEN.

It makes much greater financial sense for Klitschko to fight in Germany, especially against an unfancied challenger with no big fanbase of their own. Occasionally, when a fighter does have a decent fanbase and can sell out a venue, Vitali has travelled. He went to Poland to fight Adamek, he went to California to fight Arreola. The Klitschkos have never relied on a hometown decision in their life.

J.Benson II wrote:

azania wrote:JB11

The bigger challenge the more likely he stays home.

You think he saw Chisora as a huge challenge? It was just seen as a routine defence. Lewis and Sanders were the biggest challengers in his last 13 fights and he fought both of them in the States.
Like all other boxers, he fights where the his support lies. As champion, he also has the right to fight where he chooses.

No need to go over board. He saw Chisora as a bigger challenge that Adamek. After the Helenius fight naturally.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:Money doesn't come from the venues but TV. They sold out 12,500 last night. Same capacity as MEN or 02.

No money comes into venue azania. The demand for Klitschko tickets is far higher in Germany than the UK. Higher prices can be charged. Its questionable if Vitali v Chisora would have even sold out the MEN.

It makes much greater financial sense for Klitschko to fight in Germany, especially against an unfancied challenger with no big fanbase of their own. Occasionally, when a fighter does have a decent fanbase and can sell out a venue, Vitali has travelled. He went to Poland to fight Adamek, he went to California to fight Arreola. The Klitschkos have never relied on a hometown decision in their life.

I dont know about Germany, but everywhere else, unless they are selling 50,000 tickets, most money comes from TV and not ticket sales.

Wlad is a stay at home guy. Vit travels a little.

azania wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:

azania wrote:JB11

The bigger challenge the more likely he stays home.

You think he saw Chisora as a huge challenge? It was just seen as a routine defence. Lewis and Sanders were the biggest challengers in his last 13 fights and he fought both of them in the States.
Like all other boxers, he fights where the his support lies. As champion, he also has the right to fight where he chooses.

No need to go over board. He saw Chisora as a bigger challenge that Adamek. After the Helenius fight naturally.

If he considered him such a risk than he probably wouldnt have even fought him. Chisora was fortunate to get the title shot in the first place. .
Anyway, where else was the fight going to be held? In Britain where neither Vitali or Chisora are big draws?

Truth be told only people who watch hw boxing is die hard fans and germans - no point fighting anywhere else.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:Money doesn't come from the venues but TV. They sold out 12,500 last night. Same capacity as MEN or 02.

No money comes into venue azania. The demand for Klitschko tickets is far higher in Germany than the UK. Higher prices can be charged. Its questionable if Vitali v Chisora would have even sold out the MEN.

It makes much greater financial sense for Klitschko to fight in Germany, especially against an unfancied challenger with no big fanbase of their own. Occasionally, when a fighter does have a decent fanbase and can sell out a venue, Vitali has travelled. He went to Poland to fight Adamek, he went to California to fight Arreola. The Klitschkos have never relied on a hometown decision in their life.

I dont know about Germany, but everywhere else, unless they are selling 50,000 tickets, most money comes from TV and not ticket sales.

Wlad is a stay at home guy. Vit travels a little.

Most money is not the point. The point is they can make more money fighting in Germany against fighters that have limited support. They can guarantee to sell out venues and they can charge higher prices because of the demand for tickets. Do you really think Chisora v Vitali in the MEN would have made more money than in Munich?

Your suggestion was that Vitali had this fight in Germany in order to benefit from home judging. It ignores completly the fact that it makes more financial sense to fight there for all parties concerned and that it can be easily shown Vitali is willing to travel when it makes financial sense to do so. Chisora was about as unfancied a challenger out there. I gave the fight 117-111 to Vitali but 118-110 was not unreasonable. Chisora might have won two rounds with an argument to nick a couple more but I cant honestly see why the judges were even an issue in this one, nor why this would be the reason Vitali opted to have the fight in Germany.

manos de piedra wrote:I had a feeling this might happen. Chisora performed credibly, given his tag as big underdog. But little more than that. But nothing has really changed. The same arguments against Vitali remain.

Chisora fought as well as he did against Hellenius, if not better. Klitschko won comfortably enough indicating the gap still exists. Realistically, Vitali is almost 41. There have been few heavyweights of his calibre at that age. Yet some will try and use this as evidence he was never that great? I think the most poignant thing is that even at 40 years old he still looks to be comfortably above everyone except his brother. If we had peak all time greats out there then maybe his performance against Chisora would be insufficient. But there isnt. I dont think Vitali is slow considering his age and relative to the other heavyweights out there. Chisora came to fight and made a fight of it. But beyond that, as with the Adamek fight, I dont really see where the imminent danger is out there. The older he gets, the harder it becomes. But still dont see how Haye with his occasional big looping punches does any better than Chisora did.

We completely agree. Which doesn't happen all that often.

I personally ended up with a 117-111 scoreline - and I think the reason for this "7-5" stupidity is that Chisora performed slightly better than people were expecting - in that he wasn't blown away.

Realistically 10-2 and 9-3 were pretty fair reflections of a fight where Chisora showed a lot of bravery - but with little likelihood of scoring the upset.

Further - any idea that this fight was in Germany because Vitali wanted home-town judges is as far off the mark as to be clinically unsound. A guy who was prepared to fight the #4 ranked HW in the world in his home nation of Poland - yet was more terrified of the bottomendofthetop10 Chisora?

J.Benson II wrote:

azania wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:

azania wrote:JB11

The bigger challenge the more likely he stays home.

You think he saw Chisora as a huge challenge? It was just seen as a routine defence. Lewis and Sanders were the biggest challengers in his last 13 fights and he fought both of them in the States.
Like all other boxers, he fights where the his support lies. As champion, he also has the right to fight where he chooses.

No need to go over board. He saw Chisora as a bigger challenge that Adamek. After the Helenius fight naturally.

If he considered him such a risk than he probably wouldnt have even fought him. Chisora was fortunate to get the title shot in the first place. .
Anyway, where else was the fight going to be held? In Britain where neither Vitali or Chisora are big draws?

Risky doesn't translate to being unbeatable. Chisora was beatable and he knew that. He also thought (probably) that Chisora was better than most gave him credit for after his showing against Helenius.

Manos

I'm not going to debate the point too much. You're probably correct anyway. I had the fight 8-4 to Vit. Anyone who had it closer that that needs to go to Germany and learn how to score fights.