An opinion on the Haye-Chisora brawl - Worth a read...

by **oxring** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:09 am

This is from eastside - if you haven't seen it - you should, hence I bring it to your attention now:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30844&more=1

Included quotes:

eastside article wrote:Chisora a miserable ogre with a sustained history of poor conduct, and unlike the Klitschkos there’s little evidence to contradict a life of violence and selfishness.

eastside article wrote: don’t say he didn’t do anything bad. Don't drag yourself down there with him.

Once this has been visible enough so you've had a chance to see it - it will be merged into one of the other Chisora/Haye chats. Probably the "could Chis have been any more stupid one".

by Steffan Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:13 am

Spoiler:

by azania Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:15 am

Say you don’t like either Klitschko brother. You’re entitled to not like them. But you not liking them, not liking their style – that doesn’t affect the reality that they are role models and stand-up gentlemen. Read anything about them, and you see a consistent history of the two going out of their way to make the world better for people other than themselves.

Both the Klitschko brothers work with UNESCO and founded charities to children in developing countries; both brothers have received numerous humanitarian awards for their efforts. More recently Wlad even paid the medical bills of former opponent Zoran Vujecic, who struggles with multiple sclerosis.

He forgot to mention how they rescue cats also. vomit

by Steffan Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:30 am

Im voting Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko for:

The Nobel Peace Prize

Humanitarians of the Year Award

Best Brothers of the 21st Century

Most Inspirational Sportsmen ever

Plus I think we should have an annual 'St. Klitschko Day' celebrated all across the world

Dereck Chisora should be put in prison for the rest of his days and in 100 years from now all knowledge of his existence should be denied and wiped out from the world

by **oxring** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:31 am

Thanks Steffan. Useful contribution as always.

You don't have to agree with what he says - but its an interesting opinion and articulately expressed.

It is the opinion of the author that he goes too far in his condemnation of Chisora - but that's my own opinion. His opinion is still worth a read.

Az - are you seriously suggesting that their work with UNESCO and in developing countries - and with Zoran Vujecic is vomit inducing?

You recently mentioned King as nicer than K2.

How is Gerald McClellan these days?

by Steffan Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:33 am

oxring wrote:Thanks Steffan. Useful contribution as always

It was a just a little joke as your source was off ESB and 'Didn't Read LOL' captions are quite popular on there

by **oxring** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:34 am

Now you've explained it - its more entertaining.

I flirted with the idea of being an esb member for a while - but what they do online there makes the most heated debate on here look like teatime at a nursery.

Those kids play rough!

by Steffan Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:38 am

oxring wrote:Now you've explained it - its more entertaining.

I flirted with the idea of being an esb member for a while - but what they do online there makes the most heated debate on here look like teatime at a nursery.

Those kids play rough!

ESB boxing chat is a waste of time. I like going on the 'Eastside Lounge' though. Its a bit like our old 'Trash Talk' only 1000 times more vulgar, rude and the language is disgraceful. I fit in great there

by azania Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:45 am

oxring wrote:Thanks Steffan. Useful contribution as always.

You don't have to agree with what he says - but its an interesting opinion and articulately expressed.

It is the opinion of the author that he goes too far in his condemnation of Chisora - but that's my own opinion. His opinion is still worth a read.

Az - are you seriously suggesting that their work with UNESCO and in developing countries - and with Zoran Vujecic is vomit inducing?

You recently mentioned King as nicer than K2.

How is Gerald McClellan these days?

I can give you a list of good deeds John Gotti did also.

Ditto Floyd and many other boxers. But I like the St Klit Day. Should replace Mayday imo.

These guys cant swim.....because they walk on water. Where's D4 to list Manny's good deeds when you need him.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:52 am

Can you stop sulking please Mr unbiased, detached observer. You've been proved wrong - happens to all of us - myself more than i'd like. Accept it and move on and stop filling the board with your martyr crap.

by manos de piedra Wed 22 Feb 2012, 9:00 am

When the Klitschkos are convicted as killers or mafia dons then I might start coming round to your way of thinking azania. Until then Im not really too sure comaprisons with the likes of Gotti or King are all that credible.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 22 Feb 2012, 12:40 pm

azania wrote:
oxring wrote:Thanks Steffan. Useful contribution as always.

You don't have to agree with what he says - but its an interesting opinion and articulately expressed.

It is the opinion of the author that he goes too far in his condemnation of Chisora - but that's my own opinion. His opinion is still worth a read.

Az - are you seriously suggesting that their work with UNESCO and in developing countries - and with Zoran Vujecic is vomit inducing?

You recently mentioned King as nicer than K2.

How is Gerald McClellan these days?

I can give you a list of good deeds John Gotti did also.

Ditto Floyd and many other boxers. But I like the St Klit Day. Should replace Mayday imo.

These guys cant swim.....because they walk on water. Where's D4 to list Manny's good deeds when you need him.

Gotta say I'm kinda with Az on this one. I don't watch or find boxing interesting because of humanitarianism therefore when considering them as boxers I don't see why it should be held to their credit. You're rich patrons of a couple of charities and are in the public eye enough to be picked up as good PR for UNESCO. Well done, never heard of a rich/celebrity person do that before....oh wait...... Rolling Eyes

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Wed 22 Feb 2012, 3:39 pm

I think this article is a good unbias point of view which sums up the events:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 4:22 pm

Thanks SOF - thats a fantastic summation of events.

by manos de piedra Wed 22 Feb 2012, 4:30 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:I think this article is a good unbias point of view which sums up the events:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

I disagree with alot of that to be honest.

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Wed 22 Feb 2012, 4:34 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:I think this article is a good unbias point of view which sums up the events:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

I disagree with alot of that to be honest.

In what way Manos?

by Rowley Wed 22 Feb 2012, 4:38 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:I think this article is a good unbias point of view which sums up the events:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

I disagree with alot of that to be honest.

It does come across as quite apologist, pretty much admits mind games and trying to unsettle an opponent are pretty much par for the course when fighting overseas then puts them forward as an excuse for Chisora's behaviour. If they are par for the course how come so many other fighters manage to endure them without reacting as he did. And I'm sorry I can feel no sympathy for Haye if the brothers or Boente are mocking him or giving him the run around now. Between the t-shirt, the borat comments and Haye's general attitude in the run up to the Wlad fight and general lack of grace when he lost you can hardly blame them if they are enjoying a bit of payback, you do tend to reap what you sow in this life.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 4:55 pm

True Rowley regarding apoligism - but the summation is precise even if the inferences are not. There seems to be this stark refusal to share the blame from the majority of posters. Fact is both of them lost their bottle there and boente klitshckos etc share only a minute fraction of the blame by adding to an already volatile situation. But the major points are there as in what history there is and what the situations are between camps. However, instead of leaving it there he turns it into an apology for all camps.

by Rowley Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:01 pm

You're probably right Shah, hindsight is a wonderful thing but you do have to wonder how or why Haye got a pass to the press conference, because knowing how controlling the brothers are and their reputation for crossing all the t's it seems inconceivable he got in without their approval.

From here does not take a genius to know that given given his reputation for self publicity he was always unlikely to stand meekly at the back, also Chisora is not exactly the guy who is likely to stand idly by whilst he seems someone he doesn't particularly like stealing his limelight. Am certain nobody expected what happened but predicting it would not end well was certainly not beyond the realms of intelligent people, particularly ones not noted for leaving things to chance

by Steffan Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:03 pm

This Jason Peck is an idiot

Sounds like a right self righteous guy with his head up his backside

Who the hell is he to judge Chisora on his past. While Del Boy is clearly no angel the article is so agenda written its unreal

I personally dont care what any fighter has done in the past (to an extent)

There is often two sides to a story anyway

I think this guy has attended the Klitschko school of 'I am better than other people'

by Rowley Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:10 pm

Whilst you may not care what Chisora has done in the past Staffan it is pretty relevant to this debate because with hindsight it could have been seen to be a decent indicator to suggest he was unlikely to react well in the event he was provoked and or messed around. Also moving forward it is also likely to have a bearing on what ban he is likely to receive.

by Soldier_Of_Fortune Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:16 pm

Steffan wrote:This Jason Peck is an idiot

Sounds like a right self righteous guy with his head up his backside

Who the hell is he to judge Chisora on his past. While Del Boy is clearly no angel the article is so agenda written its unreal

I personally dont care what any fighter has done in the past (to an extent)

There is often two sides to a story anyway

I think this guy has attended the Klitschko school of 'I am better than other people'

Should read this one: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:16 pm

rowley wrote:You're probably right Shah, hindsight is a wonderful thing but you do have to wonder how or why Haye got a pass to the press conference, because knowing how controlling the brothers are and their reputation for crossing all the t's it seems inconceivable he got in without their approval.

From here does not take a genius to know that given given his reputation for self publicity he was always unlikely to stand meekly at the back, also Chisora is not exactly the guy who is likely to stand idly by whilst he seems someone he doesn't particularly like stealing his limelight. Am certain nobody expected what happened but predicting it would not end well was certainly not beyond the realms of intelligent people, particularly ones not noted for leaving things to chance

Haye being there was Warrens way of getting free publicity from someone he doent like - I imagine he did want to engineer a chisora-Haye fight but the explosion appalled even him. 3-4 inches higher and a inch or so to the right could have had the bottle smash into chisoras eye leaving him without a fighter, chisora without a career and possible sight and David Haye without his freedom. The klitschko's rather lame - run david run sort of paels into comparison. Also why is there so little coverage given to the fact that Haye fled the country and the authorities? Chisora will get bummed at any rate for his antics before and during and after the fight.

by manos de piedra Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:18 pm

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:I think this article is a good unbias point of view which sums up the events:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

I disagree with alot of that to be honest.

In what way Manos?

The gist of it seems to be absolving Chisora/Haye of any real blame even going as far as to suggest Boente could be blamed. The author begins the peice by saying lets look at the "facts". But in reality goes on to just speculate and offer his own take on events much of which are not facts at all but largely subjective.

The first thing is with Chisora. I doubt Chisora was on a pay as you fight contract with Warren. This would be unusual for someone in Chisoras position. The money at that level isnt enough to sustain a guy like Chisora as a full time pro. Its more likely he was on a wage based contract with Warren. So the cancellation of the first fight as probably more likely to have hit Warren. But an experienced promoter like him is almost certain to have insurance for that kind of thing.

Secondly, he says Chisora was granted a shot on merit and a Euro title was deemed sufficient to get Audley Harrison a world title shot. Hardly the real barometer of worthiness. Fair enough, Chisora got robbed against Hellenius, but the idea he was in the fight on merit is flimsy. All the more so considering his loss to Fury on top. Using Audley Harrison as a basis is just silly.

Thirdly, according to the author Chisora knows his only chance is a punchers chance? Does he really? Is that a "fact". A puchers chance from a fighter with questionable power at world level against a heavyweight with a reputation for a great chin? I find it easier to believe Chisora had a gameplan beyond a punchers chance. Its all speculative anyway.

Fourthly, the author says it was an outstanding performance from Chisora. Exaggerated I feel, but not overly important. It was a good effort by Chisora given his status.

Fifthly, its a pretty one sided take of events the author has on the cancellation of the Wlad/Chisora fight. "Keeping in mind how Del Boy was cast aside by Wlad Klitschko as soon as the ink was dry on the Haye contract". Not entirely true. Efforts were made by the Klitschkos to preserve the Wlad/Chisora fight. Haye demanded the Wlad fight take place in July or else not at all. Wlad offered Haye a later date to fight which Haye rejected. Vitali offered to fight Haye in July instead of Wlad which Haye rejected. Wlad offered to fight both Chisora and Haye in April and then July which again was rejected. Incidentally, Im not laying the blame on Haye for the cancellation as he had his own legitimate reasons but to say Wlad cast Chisora aside like a bad habit as soon as Haye became available just isnt the case.

Sixthly, the entire description of Haye is generously embellished and I would go as far as saying its basically spin. Im not going to disect it line by line but it certainly isnt all facts and gives the impression thats its written by a very big Haye fan as opposed to an impartial observer keen to disect the facts. The author gives his own version of what happened with Haye/Vitali (presented as facts) but offers absolutely nothing by way of evidence to support his version of events. Im going to guess he wasnt present at any of the Haye/K2 negotiations in any event.

Seventhly, the author says Haye was well within his rights to be at the post fight conferance (having given a balanced performance as a pundit!). Ok maybe he was, but he was he entitled to start mouthing off and basically derailing the entire procedure? Even more bizzarely, the author insinuates that Haye was baited by Boente. Nearly the opposite actually happened. Far from "Berndt Boente, manager of both Klitschko brothers seemed to continually look to divert the thread of the conversation away from praising Chisora's performance, and on to castigating Haye's last outing - much to the annoyance of both British fighters". Actually, Boente was the one telling Haye to keep queit and was the one putting the focus back on Chisoras performance. While Haye ranted ("Vitali you said you wanted to knock me out" etc) it was Boente who told him to fight Chisora because Chisora "showed alot of heart, you showed your toe", "you cant keep trying to talk your way into fights". Now the authors version of events of what happened at the press conference dont really stand up to what actually happened.

Its a reasonably well written piece, but having read the whole article the impression I got was that the author was a pretty big Haye fan and its a reasonably subjective take on what happened rather than an objective look at the facts.

by Steffan Wed 22 Feb 2012, 5:19 pm

rowley wrote:Whilst you may not care what Chisora has done in the past Staffan it is pretty relevant to this debate because with hindsight it could have been seen to be a decent indicator to suggest he was unlikely to react well in the event he was provoked and or messed around. Also moving forward it is also likely to have a bearing on what ban he is likely to receive.

Yes I agree. Prehaps I just didnt like the way the author of the article was using it against him when he has probably no real knowlegde of Chisoras past or convictons. Its a totally judgemental article. Im gonna send one to Peck saying 'Are you a rich boy who has never boxed and was bullied in school...not that im judging you or anything' Laugh

by azania Wed 22 Feb 2012, 6:10 pm

rowley wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:I think this article is a good unbias point of view which sums up the events:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=30840&more=1

I disagree with alot of that to be honest.

It does come across as quite apologist, pretty much admits mind games and trying to unsettle an opponent are pretty much par for the course when fighting overseas then puts them forward as an excuse for Chisora's behaviour. If they are par for the course how come so many other fighters manage to endure them without reacting as he did. And I'm sorry I can feel no sympathy for Haye if the brothers or Boente are mocking him or giving him the run around now. Between the t-shirt, the borat comments and Haye's general attitude in the run up to the Wlad fight and general lack of grace when he lost you can hardly blame them if they are enjoying a bit of payback, you do tend to reap what you sow in this life.

Action speaks louder than words rowley. I suppose Wlad not going to the rules meeting yet demanding a change of hand wraps is a sign of class. Haye has a loud mouth. I suppose that is unique to him only.

by Rowley Wed 22 Feb 2012, 7:06 pm

Az when I said I was done with discussing the subject with you I am sorry if you read that to mean I was eager to restart it on another it on a different thread apologies if this was not clear

by azania Wed 22 Feb 2012, 7:08 pm

rowley wrote:Az when I said I was done with discussho the subject with you I am sorry if you read that to mean I was eager to restart it on another it on a different thread apologies if this was not clear

by BoxingFan88 Wed 22 Feb 2012, 8:44 pm

Wow that was a really good read, thanks for posting. I personally hated the brawl and anyone mentions it I feel embarrassed as a British boxing fan.

by Kay Fabe Thu 23 Feb 2012, 12:15 am

The Klitchko Brothers have it sorted, while I believe their charity work does a lot of good, and I really don't mean this in a negative way, it's a lot easier to be gracious winners than losers, they do everything you'd expect from a well oiled PR machine, they are cementing a legacy between them with all the great PR they provide, In many years time, that PR will overshadow the the absolute death clutch they've held over Boxing, what they lack in talent and true guts to prove to themselves if they really are worthy Champions they more than make up for with in ring and outside ring smarts

As for the 'Brawl'...I think it was a disgrace, for me the blame lies at the feat of Chisora, at the time I was blaming Haye but looking back I immediately changed my opinion, Haye knows how to build hype, he was obviously looking at setting up a fight with Chisora in order to get himself a shot at Vitali, Chisora, showed how little he understood by taking the bait, the major disappointing aspect for me though is both seemed to lose their discipline which at the level both want to be at is completely unacceptable

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