Rabo exodus, Greed, Life Style or a Higher Level of Rugby?

Why are the Welsh players turning their backs on the Rabo?

Is it just greed, life style or do they want a better level of rugby on which to test their skills?

This can only lead to big problems for the Regions and Wales IMO.

In Gethin's case, job security I would say since he has turned down big money offers before to stay at Cardiff Blues.

HERSH wrote:
Why are the Welsh players turning their backs on the Rabo?

Is it just greed, life style or do they want a better level of rugby on which to test their skills?

This can only lead to big problems for the Regions and Wales IMO.

I think seeing as most the players leaving are getting on a bit, it may well be looking to go to an easier competition in an attempt to prolong their careers and earn so cash at the same time, much like the Saffers, Aussies and Kiwis do when they step over to the Jeff.

So your saying that Phillips, Hook, Jenkins and co are at the end of their careers. So why did Stephen Jones come back then?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HERSH wrote:
Why are the Welsh players turning their backs on the Rabo?

Is it just greed, life style or do they want a better level of rugby on which to test their skills?

This can only lead to big problems for the Regions and Wales IMO.

I think seeing as most the players leaving are getting on a bit, it may well be looking to go to an easier competition in an attempt to prolong their careers and earn so cash at the same time, much like the Saffers, Aussies and Kiwis do when they step over to the Jeff.

Gethin should find it a lot easier in France.
The Top 14 kicks off a few weeks before the Rabo 12, most likely because they have 4 more games than us lot, and he most probably will play for his club during the breaks in the 6 nations as Mike Phillips did on the weekend. Bet Gats wasn't happy about that.

HERSH wrote:So your saying that Phillips, Hook, Jenkins and co are at the end of their careers. So why did Stephen Jones come back then?

He got bored of playing in a league that was too easy and fancied a bit of competition

The good news is that it frees up starting places for younger players. The bad news is that the regions will never build full squads strong enough to compete with the likes of Toulouse, Clermont, Munster and Leinster, who can fight and win and two fronts.

Possible bad news for the Wales team is that the players who are playing in France might get flogged over there. They French clubs play a lot of games and I'm sure they couldn't give a toss if the Welsh players are in peak condition for internationals.

Oh jeez another WUM attempt to undermine the Rabo competition. Not sure why they are leaving the league....maybe the same reason Wilkinson, Haskel, Sakey, Freshwater, Balshaw etc etc all left the jeff....yawn!

In Richie Gray's departure from Glasgow I don't think it was greed, he was offered a lot of money to stay at the club I think, and for reasons best known to himself he chose Sale of all places instead of France or Leinster.....

The Scots, Italians and Irish are recruiting so the league will continue to get stronger.

Hopefully things in Wales will get sorted sooner rather than later. At the moment they could be in danger of losing more fans as well as being caught up in terms of quality.

All apart from Haskell and Wilko were finished with England, and we all know the real Wilko was finished in 2007.

Why is this an attempted WUM this is a real issue for the Rabo and Wales?

Sorry HERSH but to me it seems to bait a 'my league is better than your league' thread. I personally don't see it as a step down in terms of skill levels. The Rabo offers excellent match ups and most games are played with intensity and pace.

If this was a genuine question then I apologise for jumping the gun, but that's how I saw it.

It may well be classed as greed but its a proffessional game now so would any of us turn down more money if a new company offered us it for doing the same job.

With the salary cap coming into Wales as of next season the Fremch clubs were always going to come knocking but for me I am glad its the French clubs they are going to as opposed to the English ones as there seems a bit more of negotiation between the French when it comes to player release.

Higher Level of Rugby? Hardly.

Yes they have bigger names in the league but when you consider the lack of training time invested by French Clubs, the added games they play compared to any other league and the fact that over half the teams within it are totally uncompetitive.

In France you get flogged to death and totally overplayed. The big concern will be if this impacts on the players longevitity.

And to answer the question, its simple really - Greed.

In fairness to players though thats just Human nature and you encounter that in all walks of life, regardless of proffession.

Welsh,

Is it greed or just trying to look after yourself and family etc with future in mind?

HERSH wrote:All apart from Haskell and Wilko were finished with England, and we all know the real Wilko was finished in 2007.

Why is this an attempted WUM this is a real issue for the Rabo and Wales?

I think this is the first time I've ever seen HERSH been accused of being a WUM

In answer to the question is probably all of the above. It stems from the £3.5m voluntary salary cap they'll have (that is the right figure isn't it?!), which means in general more players will leave than join.

Gatland should show some balls and drop the players who have turned their backs on the Welsh fans.

Oh wait I forgot he hasn't got any.

Gethin stated he was only offered 60% of his current wage in the new deal & The Blues are obviously cutting their cloth accordingly.
Most players in that situation would look for the alternative which is even more salary,better lifestyle, better quality rugby - no brainer really.

The comments by Thomas & call for central contracts precede the impending report on Region finances - no coincidences there!

bedfordwelsh wrote:just trying to look after yourself and family etc with future in mind?

For me that's the main reason. Lifestyle etc comes into it but the players know their career's are short and they want to maximize their earnings before retirement. If the wages were the same in all the leagues then I imagine most of the Welsh players would have stayed in Wales where they wouldn't be flogged to death. Even maybe Hook would have just signed for a different region if they guaranteed him the 10 shirt. The good news is that it seems to improve players - Phillips and Byrne have rediscovered some form since moving to France and both Haskall and Palmer became better players.

Can't blame them myself. 2 or 3 years on potentially up to half a million euro's a year plus bonuses and endorsements will make a substantial difference to your pension pot. Plus in Jenkins case a couple of years in the warm climate of the south of France may feel like a refreshing change from rainy Cardiff .

bedfordwelsh wrote:Welsh,

Is it greed or just trying to look after yourself and family etc with future in mind?

Yes its still Greed - Wanting more than you currently have is the textbook definition. Makes no difference if the reason is family related or not.

At the end of the day while I appreciate players have a short carear please keep in mind most of the players with International Honours go on to front a lot of business and the like. Its not like these players retire from work the day they finish throwing a rugby ball around.

Rugby Players already get well paid for what they do and keep in mind no one is irreplacable. No one.

Welshmushroom wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Welsh,

Is it greed or just trying to look after yourself and family etc with future in mind?

Yes its still Greed - Wanting more than you currently have is the textbook definition. Makes no difference if the reason is family related or not.

At the end of the day while I appreciate players have a short carear please keep in mind most of the players with International Honours go on to front a lot of business and the like. Its not like these players retire from work the day they finish throwing a rugby ball around.

Rugby Players already get well paid for what they do and keep in mind no one is irreplacable. No one.

Congratulations.

This was a dumb article by HERSH (no surprise) but an even dumber reply. I can only guess that you must have turned down any pay rises ever offered to you?

PS most dictionaries (sp?) I checked agree with this definition:

"An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth"

Welshmushroom wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Welsh,

Is it greed or just trying to look after yourself and family etc with future in mind?

Yes its still Greed - Wanting more than you currently have is the textbook definition. Makes no difference if the reason is family related or not.

At the end of the day while I appreciate players have a short carear please keep in mind most of the players with International Honours go on to front a lot of business and the like. Its not like these players retire from work the day they finish throwing a rugby ball around.

Rugby Players already get well paid for what they do and keep in mind no one is irreplacable. No one.

Crikey!!!

The fact is the Rabo isnt exactly the most competitive or well attended league in the world so you cant blame the players for wanting to be on the big stage

Robbie Paul once spoke of when he was coaching at a club (cant remember who was sorry) and he got asked about players leaving he said it wasnt a problem as there is always a young up and coming hungry player to take that place

Unfortunalty the Welsh clubs dont take this attitude and will just get foreigners to fill the positions

Steffan wrote:The fact is the Rabo isnt exactly the most competitive or well attended league in the world so you cant blame the players for wanting to be on the big stage

Robbie Paul once spoke of when he was coaching at a club (cant remember who was sorry) and he got asked about players leaving he said it wasnt a problem as there is always a young up and coming hungry player to take that place

Unfortunalty the Welsh clubs dont take this attitude and will just get foreigners to fill the positions

Steffan,

With the new salary cap then all Regions not just the Dragons and Scarlets may have to look within to fill the gaps.

Steffan wrote:The fact is the Rabo isnt exactly the most competitive or well attended league in the world so you cant blame the players for wanting to be on the big stage

Robbie Paul once spoke of when he was coaching at a club (cant remember who was sorry) and he got asked about players leaving he said it wasnt a problem as there is always a young up and coming hungry player to take that place

Unfortunalty the Welsh clubs dont take this attitude and will just get foreigners to fill the positions

Credit where credit's due, at Cardiff Blues Warburton, Brad, Halfpenny, Roberts, Lloyd Williams, Cuthbert etc were all young, up and coming players not so long ago. Harry Robinson will be the next youngster to make his mark.
Also, Wales has a pretty good side at the moment, so what does it matter if there are a few foreigners playing here? Maybe their presence is helping rather than hindering.

HERSH wrote:
Why are the Welsh players turning their backs on the Rabo?

Is it just greed, life style or do they want a better level of rugby on which to test their skills?

This can only lead to big problems for the Regions and Wales IMO.

Firstly, I'd guess it's financial security. It's no different to anyone else who travels great distances or moves away for the sake of a job - and these days a hell of a lot of people do. Also, professional athletes don't have the added luxury of doing their job until retirement age like the rest of us. Their careers are short, and they need to make the most of it as much as they can whilst they're in a position to do it. A lot of players have stated this. Many of the players who've gone are 2/3rds of the way into their careers. It's unfortunate, that we'll lose them, but that's the way of the world. Good luck to them.

Secondly, it's a whole new experience living and working in another country, and why not give it a go if you've a decent job there?

LondonTiger wrote

"Congratulations.

This was a dumb article by HERSH (no surprise) but an even dumber reply. I can only guess that you must have turned down any pay rises ever offered to you?"



Why is it a dumb article?

The Regions are in financial trouble, they can't get fans through their doors and now they can't keep hold of star players, who wants to pay top dollar to watch young up and coming players and a few journeymen?

You'd have to be dumb not to see the long term problem, but maybe you are!

There's a lot of reasons why players leave the Rabo for france and quite frankly I can't blame them. It's unfortunate that it's come to this but how can you expect the players to take the league seriously if the Boards and directors don't?

For those saying there isn't a higher quality of rugby in France are kidding themselves. The Top 14 is full of all star teams, like Barbarians teams that play together on a regular basis, just look at Tolouse!

1. Steenkamp 2. Servat 3. Johnston 4. Albacete 5. Maestri 6. Nyaga 7. Dusatoir 8. Picamoles 9. Burgess 10. McAlister 11. Medard 12. Jauzion 13. Caucau 14. Clerc 15. Poitrenaud

Is there a team with that kind of potential in the Rabo?

CurlyOsp wrote:just look at Tolouse!

1. Steenkamp 2. Servat 3. Johnston 4. Albacete 5. Maestri 6. Nyaga 7. Dusatoir 8. Picamoles 9. Burgess 10. McAlister 11. Medard 12. Jauzion 13. Caucau 14. Clerc 15. Poitrenaud

Is there a team with that kind of potential in the Rabo?

Eh, Leinster? The team that knocked Toulouse out of the HEC last year and are also ranked number 1 in Europe and are also European Champions?

Why don't they win the HC every year?

Feckless, there's no doubting Leinsters strength and I'm not saying that every time the two teams play that Leinster will always lose, but Toulouse have been the more dominant team in europe.

Toulouse are the most successful team in the HC but if Leinster win the HC this year they will be the greatest team in HC history based upon winning it 3 times in 4 years. Lets wait and see.

CurlyOsp wrote:Feckless, there's no doubting Leinsters strength and I'm not saying that every time the two teams play that Leinster will always lose, but Toulouse have been the more dominant team in europe.

Indeed they have but I think everyone would agree that the Celtic league was weak in the early years of its existence. With Rabo teams winning it in 4 of the last 6 years it does reflect the strength of the league nowadays.

It should also be noted that only 2 French teams have won the HEC! Brive and Toulouse.

CurlyOsp wrote:There's a lot of reasons why players leave the Rabo for france and quite frankly I can't blame them. It's unfortunate that it's come to this but how can you expect the players to take the league seriously if the Boards and directors don't?

For those saying there isn't a higher quality of rugby in France are kidding themselves. The Top 14 is full of all star teams, like Barbarians teams that play together on a regular basis, just look at Tolouse!

1. Steenkamp 2. Servat 3. Johnston 4. Albacete 5. Maestri 6. Nyaga 7. Dusatoir 8. Picamoles 9. Burgess 10. McAlister 11. Medard 12. Jauzion 13. Caucau 14. Clerc 15. Poitrenaud

Is there a team with that kind of potential in the Rabo?

The French league is full of mercenaries though. How many times have we seen southern hemisphere players go there and perform below their previous standard. We can all agree most go there for the money so they're not exactly playing with pride when they wear the jersey. Its different from Rabo teams who would have more local players.

CurlyOsp wrote:Feckless, there's no doubting Leinsters strength and I'm not saying that every time the two teams play that Leinster will always lose, but Toulouse have been the more dominant team in europe.

Yes, since the tournaments inception. But Leinster are more dominant now. Two wins in three years. Like someone said above; if Leinster win it a third time in four years it will make them the best Heineken Cup team ever. It took Toulouse ten years to win three. And the competition was weaker back then.

I think Leinster and Munster are as strong as any team in Europe. And I think the Welsh regions have the potential to be just as good, if they could just get their act together. Look how good their test side is doing. Both Scottish sides and Treviso are competitive at HEC level. It's only Connacht, Dragons and Aironi that aren't up to the highest level. And even so, Aironi have beaten Biarritz and Connacht have beaten Harlequins recently.

In terms of the quality of players, the Pro 12 is certainly stronger than the English league. The French league isn't producing as many good young players either. Much of their strength is based on foreign mercenaries. The things the Pro 12 lack are money and a large support base. As it grows in Italy more TV money will be sloshing around. A new generation of Welsh will support the regions. I think the Welsh regions can match the attendances and success of the best Irish provinces. And I think they will eventually. Starting brand new regions has been painful and held them back. But when they take off the Pro 12 will be indisputably the best and the English will want to merge the leagues.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HERSH wrote:So your saying that Phillips, Hook, Jenkins and co are at the end of their careers. So why did Stephen Jones come back then?

He got bored of playing in a league that was too easy and fancied a bit of competition

Thanks for letting us have Day , he apparently wanted more competition and a new challenge as he says that the Jeff is a step up in terms of quality and pressure.

Interesting!

HERSH wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HERSH wrote:So your saying that Phillips, Hook, Jenkins and co are at the end of their careers. So why did Stephen Jones come back then?

He got bored of playing in a league that was too easy and fancied a bit of competition

Thanks for letting us have Day , he apparently wanted more competition and a new challenge as he says that the Jeff is a step up in terms of quality and pressure.

Interesting!

Day is a local lad to where I am from and I am gutted that he has come out and proven me wrong. Apparently your lot have done pretty well to swoop upon him as from what I have heard he was being courted by London Irish and Saffersons too. You got yourselves a decent little signing there

profitius wrote:

CurlyOsp wrote:Feckless, there's no doubting Leinsters strength and I'm not saying that every time the two teams play that Leinster will always lose, but Toulouse have been the more dominant team in europe.

Indeed they have but I think everyone would agree that the Celtic league was weak in the early years of its existence. With Rabo teams winning it in 4 of the last 6 years it does reflect the strength of the league nowadays. It should also be noted that only 2 French teams have won the HEC! Brive and Toulouse.

Not really. It shows how strong Munster and Leinster have been in the HC.

Are well into the Amlin next year for Day, dropping down a level for the money.

LondonTiger wrote:

profitius wrote:

CurlyOsp wrote:Feckless, there's no doubting Leinsters strength and I'm not saying that every time the two teams play that Leinster will always lose, but Toulouse have been the more dominant team in europe.

Indeed they have but I think everyone would agree that the Celtic league was weak in the early years of its existence. With Rabo teams winning it in 4 of the last 6 years it does reflect the strength of the league nowadays. It should also be noted that only 2 French teams have won the HEC! Brive and Toulouse.

Not really. It shows how strong Munster and Leinster have been in the HC.

Maybe Aironi beating Biarritz is a better reflection of the league. Aironi only won 1 game last season and are bottom of the league this season with 3 wins. People make out that its a soft league but Aironi have shown otherwise. Its not for a want of trying either.

Connacht (second from bottom) beat the English league leaders and almost beat them in England too. Gloucester needed a late try at home to beat Connacht.

The teams in the League are not necessarily weak - but they do often pick weakened teams. How many matches do players like Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones play in the Rabo?

The same thing happens in France where they often have a Home XV and a different away XV. Why I stopped watching T14.

LondonTiger - It all depends on what is going on internationally whether the big names are available, and for some reason the internationals tend to get more injuries than the common players. For example Matthew Rees has hardly played for the Scarlets and Alyn-Wyn Jones has hardly played for the Ospreys as they have picked up knocks on international duty, and then are straight back to international duty as soon as they are fit.

Rugby players can only play so many games per season. Performance dips if they play too many.

Anyway don't the EPS members have their game time limited by the RFU?

I agree with what you are all saying.

I just feel that while in general the Rabo teams - mainly Irish - are the strongest in Europe, the Rabo League is not especially competative. This is not however a reflection of quality. The AP is highly competative - but at times dismally low quality.

Would Mike Phillips have played in the Rabo last weekend if he was still with the O's?
Not a chance, but he did play for Bayonne in the Top14. No doubt Hook would've turned out for Perpignan if he hadn't caught the pox.

Rugby players are professional athletes and have a short enough career to earn money from playing.

The Rabo is only able to sustain itself within reasonable budgets. There are no sugar daddies left and all clubs first and foremost need to cut their cloth to remain in existence. Club revenue comes from merchandise, ticket sales, sponsorship and tv deals. The Rabo is only a relatively young league and still growing, whereas the Top14 and Jeff are long established. For that reason the ticket sales, sponsorship and tv deals will earn more for teams in those other two leagues and give them a bigger budget to offer higher wages to players.

This exodus of high profile players out of Wales could be viewed as evidence that Wales can bring through and develop quality players.

Where the Jeff and more so the Top 14 benefit is that the mid and low tier sides in those leagues have budgets comparable to the top Rabo sides. Are people claiming that Brive-Bayonne-Agen-(Perpignan recently) are the peak of rugby existence? But they have the cash to offer more money to players than Scarlets/Ospreys/Blues.

As the Rabo grows (and it is growing and improving) the teams within will start getting more money, be better able to retain their home talent, etc. etc.

But in relation to the question greed-life style-higher level of rugby? I think it is a money driven decision but I don't think greed is the correct word to use.

I can't see the Pro 12 teams ever matching the budgets of the French teams. But the size of the budget isn't everything, as Leinster showed Clermont and Toulouse last year. The quality you produce from your academy is just as important. And I get the impression that the Pro 12 teams are far more focused on that than the English and French clubs.

The reason some Welsh players are going to France is the same as why English, Scottish, Italian, Georgian, Argentinian, American, South African, Kiwi and Aussie players are playing in France. There's more money to be made there. Much more, if you're good enough. Do you think Kiwi's are going to France to play a higher level of rugby than they get in the Super 15 and Tri Nations?

Only the Irish seem to be able to resist French money, partly because the provinces are successful and have great pride and team spirit. But probably mostly because there is a tax incentive for them to stay in Ireland.

LondonTiger wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Welsh,

Is it greed or just trying to look after yourself and family etc with future in mind?

Yes its still Greed - Wanting more than you currently have is the textbook definition. Makes no difference if the reason is family related or not.

At the end of the day while I appreciate players have a short carear please keep in mind most of the players with International Honours go on to front a lot of business and the like. Its not like these players retire from work the day they finish throwing a rugby ball around.

Rugby Players already get well paid for what they do and keep in mind no one is irreplacable. No one.

Congratulations.

This was a dumb article by HERSH (no surprise) but an even dumber reply. I can only guess that you must have turned down any pay rises ever offered to you?

PS most dictionaries (sp?) I checked agree with this definition:

"An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth"

I dont exactly know how you jumped to the conclusion that I have not based a desicion on Greed. I have. Millions of People do every day. Infact Capaitalism is pretty much based round this. Greed is not a filthy word my friend, its socially acceptable. Its also a common part of human behaviour.

Welshmushroom wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Congratulations.

This was a dumb article by HERSH (no surprise) but an even dumber reply. I can only guess that you must have turned down any pay rises ever offered to you?

PS most dictionaries (sp?) I checked agree with this definition:

"An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth"

I dont exactly know how you jumped to the conclusion that I have not based a desicion on Greed. I have. Millions of People do every day. Infact Capaitalism is pretty much based round this. Greed is not a filthy word my friend, its socially acceptable. Its also a common part of human behaviour.

"Yes its still Greed - Wanting more than you currently have is the textbook definition."

How is this a textbook definition of greed?
It isn't.