morgan yes or no? in all formats

mine

20/20 yes
odi no
test no

at present anyway- hope he can proove me wrong

yes in odi and t20

no in tests.

I don't think he is all that ready for test cricket.
I remember someone during the first test mnetioned he averaged something like 140 against spin bowling, that was the kind of misleading statistics you can draw if you want to make a player look good.

Ask me I love stats.

I wonder what his stats are now against spin

17?

T20 - yes
50 overs - yes
Tests - no, not at the moment.

A spell playing four day cricket may be of help?

Youre being ridiculous if you think hes shot as an ODI player.

Hes had a horrid winter, and his test place whould be under pressure, but itll take a lot more to get him out the ODI side than one bad series. His overall record is still very good.

Many people would have had KP out the side after an much longer extebnded bad run of form, now hes notched up two big scores and holds the England joint record for most ODI centuries every suddenly remebered why hes an autimatic pick for all 3 sides.

me personally id take him out for now- let him play some 40 over stuff and get the confidence back, he doesnt look right out there- KP different class- the guy is proven- offcourse we stick with him.

only in the short term of course- he can earn his place back, lets give a few others a shot,

In the top 4 who though?

Bell again???

Does he look any more shot than Trott?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Youre being ridiculous if you think hes shot as an ODI player.

Hes had a horrid winter, and his test place whould be under pressure, but itll take a lot more to get him out the ODI side than one bad series. His overall record is still very good.

Many people would have had KP out the side after an much longer extebnded bad run of form, now hes notched up two big scores and holds the England joint record for most ODI centuries every suddenly remebered why hes an autimatic pick for all 3 sides.

Tests - Stay far far away
ODIs and T20s - Yes

you both might be right if i ever said he was shot!

anyway have a look at the other player that scored in the series at no.4!!

bopara ring any bells

to fill the other place(4 or 5) we have bairstow and butler to try out- i have a feeling they may never get another shot otherwise.

we should stick with kieswater at 6- unless we brought davies into open and then perhaps push everyone else up one.

no way should Morgan be dropped from ODIs, sorry but that's just ridiculous. He didn't even have that poor a series (averaged 33 or so). Tests, maybe, but I suspect England will give him the SL series.

i think he deserves to stay- as you all say he was half decent and part of a winning team- however i would really like to see more of bairstow and/or butler

mystiroakey wrote:i think he deserves to stay- as you all say he was half decent and part of a winning team- however i would really like to see more of bairstow and/or butler

Then Kieswetter's place is more likely to go, IMO.

Like we said on an earlier thread. Too many options :-)

T20 and ODI definitly keep and have him 5/6.

Tests give Taylor a go and get him playing 4 day cricket to see how he does, if he does well have him compete with Taylor for a spot.

Morgan is "England"'s (sorry!) best one-day batsman, along with KP now the latter seems to have gotten his mojo back somewhat. He's also their best fielder (or one of). Suggestions that he should be replaced because he had a poor(ish) series when horribly out of nick are ridiculously knee-jerky.

I am sorry i would never put mogs above trott,cook or kp- getting abit ott to say he is better than any off them, potential - maybe, better - no

So everyone wants him in the 50 over- yet no one wants him in tests.

If he is as good as kp(which is a bit of a silly assement from my pov- i believe he could become that good, but he has miles to go yet) then surely its knee jerk to take him out of tests!!!

Test - 100% no, he does nothing to make me believe he is at all suited to the longest format

ODI - 75% no, he needs to prove himself and fast. Is it confidence? Is it technique?

T20 - 75% yes, he's still a great t20 player but maybe being dropped and refining his technique.

I never thought Morgan was ready for Test cricket. They based his good scores in the shorter format of the game on the idea he could transfer it to the Test arena. Most people who are a success at Test level have played their fair share of four-day cricket IMO, because they know exactly what is required to build an innings. Morgan does not understand how to build an innings and that is purely down to the fact that he has played very few county games. What he needs is a good two solid seasons in the county game where he can work on his technique and temperament.

In the ODI format he is a dead cert. This is where he is in his element. His diverse range of shots has helped him reach the highest levels of ODI batting, and has all the shots in the book that suits this shorter form of the game. He had a bad test series and to suddenly think he would hit form in the shorter format would have been naive. I'm sure he will return to his best once he get's out of the UAE where he can clear his head a little.

T/20 format, no doubt. Again, similar to my views on his ODI format, he has a ll the flamboyant shots needed and again, needs a change of scenery.

I would drop Morgan from the Test side purely for his own good. He can go away and develop his longer game in the county season for Middlesex, whilst still playing in the ODI's and T/20's for England to ensure he is still in the International set up.

mystiroakey wrote:I am sorry i would never put mogs above trott,cook or kp- getting abit ott to say he is better than any off them, potential - maybe, better - no

So everyone wants him in the 50 over- yet no one wants him in tests.

If he is as good as kp(which is a bit of a silly assement from my pov- i believe he could become that good, but he has miles to go yet) then surely its knee jerk to take him out of tests!!!

I think you're being silly to be honest. Morgan's ODI record for England is about 50odd games, an average of around 40 at a strike rate of 85. That is not potential, that is excellent, particularly as occasionally (as in the first ODI here) he is asked to come in and give it a bash.

He has played more ODIs than Trott. So talking about potential is meaningless.

Personally I would keep him in the test side also, but realise I'm in the minority there.

On the other hand it makes me laugh when people talk about technique, and learning to play in county cricket.

he averages 38 with an sr of 83. i think its also very obvious that he is alot younger than trott who although hasnt played in as many odi's is by way the more accomplised,experienced and wiser player who averages 48 with an sr of 78(far better ave).

whats meaningless about discussing potential when we talk about a 25 year old!! you then compare him to a 30 year old!

did you not remeber flintoffs start out- he realised his potential very late


i believe the guy is very good and could fullfill his potential, however you cant say he is the best odi player we have- he is at best 4th!

if you believed he had potential then i agree keep him in both formats. if you think he has fullfilled it - then he will never be a test player and no!

our best players(infact the worlds best players) play well in odi's and tests. therefore if morgan never becomes a decent test player - he will never be a top top player.

mystiroakey wrote:he averages 38 with an sr of 83. i think its also very obvious that he is alot younger than trott who although hasnt played in as many odi's is by way the more accomplised,experienced and wiser player who averages 48 with an sr of 78(far better ave)

That includes 22 games (ish) for Ireland where he averaged 37 at a lower strike rate.

Trott having played fewer ODIs is, by definition, less experienced.

mystiroakey wrote:i believe the guy is very good and could fullfill his potential, however you cant say he is the best odi player we have- he is at best 4th!

I'm sorry, but if you think that Cook is, as of now, a proven better ODI player than Morgan (Cook is also far less experienced BTW) I don't think this debate is worth continuing.

Morgan was certainly England's best ODI player for the whole of last season. He is, with KP (and possibly now Cook), England's only genuine match-winner with the bat in that format, and the player the other sides fear. There is absolutely no question over his ODI place right now.

anyway my point is if we stick with him- which i actually agree we should and maybe i was being abit silly- i think we should also keep him in the tests- but he needs to understand about reacting to a situation and playing slightly differently- he isnt a kp- yet!!

No way Morgan should be dropped from the ODI squad, yes he looks out of sorts atm but he's not the only one. He is crucial to our side in that along with KP he is the only person capable of taking the game away from the opposition with a big score at well over a run a ball. Plus he is a proven finisher. Same goes for T20s.

However, in Tests he needs to go, I didn't think he was ready when he was picked and I don't think he did either based on the interview I saw with him at the time. He also spends his summers playing in the IPL instead of gaining first class experience with Middlesex in the county championship games at the start of the season. For me, this shows a lack of commitment to improve his game at the longer form of the game.

" For me, this shows a lack of commitment to improve his game at the longer form of the game."

name one other player with so much hype and batting ability that isnt also a test player.

i also think it sounds abit nuts to me that he doesnt have motivation to improve his test game- due to the fact that his dream was to play 'test' cricket for 'england'.

deep down i am sure he does- maybe if england dropped him for abit he would end up becoming a better odi and test player.

i do not buy into the fact that you can be a better odi player or better test player by sticking to that format in this day and age(obviously not talking about 20/20). the best will play 50 over style in a test when its needed, and the best will play test style in a 50 over game when needed.

The thing is, he's just had a nightmare Test series against Pakistan and quite possibly won't play against Sri Lanka so in the summer he'll need to prove himself to try and get back in the frame. Except he won't be able to because he'll be in India.

so do we assume he choose england for the money and not to play test cricket, just like he chooses the ipl over the less lucritive county games.

maybe he needs the push out before he really realises what he wants-

Truth is , Morgan is rather out of form right now , which is affecting his performance in all formats.

Since he is (reasonably enough) seen as a nailed on certainty for t20 and 50over selection , this loss of form shouldn't cause his place in those teams to be questioned at this time. Obviously , if he continues to fail to score runs for long enough , he will stand to lose his place like anyone else. I'd be surprised if that were to happen.

Tests are another matter. Morgan is "just" in the Test team , as first choice replacement for Collingwood , but still on probation as it were . He is seen by the selectors as a player with potential , and the type of character they want , but he hasn't made enough runs to be secure in his spot , so I think he may well lose his position in Sri Lanka, either to an extra bowler in Bresnan , or to Bopara. This won't mean he is finished in Tests as I imagine the number six spot will be under review again in the summer. But it does mean he needs to start producing the goods in the five day game sooner rather than later.

For me, Mogs has never been a test player. He will be a player that will get the odd score but nothing more. Its more a case of the English management trying to make a Test player out of a ODI player. Doesnt really work in my eye's..

I would say that in the ODI and T20 format, Mogs is one of Englands best players. I really liken him to Jonty Rhodes or Niel Fairbrother (if any of you remember him).

i think any top level 50 over player can also perform at test level.

and vice versa.

johnty rhodes wasnt the greatest odi batsman- however just good enough. almost only in the side for his outstanding fielding!

neil fairbrother , yeah ok player but nothing special- mogs is in a different league mind,

he can step up- but if he doesnt put the time in to try- then there is no point sticking with him, and he could end up losing his 50 over spot an all

I am not saying that Jonty was a top class batsman but he was not too bad either and had a very similar role to that of Mogs. Both very well worth their spots. Niel Fairbrother is also very similar in my eyes.

I just feel that its much easier for an established test batsman to adjust to a ODI set up than it is for a ODI batsman to adjust to the test arena. Personally i doubt that Mogs will ever make a good test batsman. Mogs would be better to focus on the shorter formats as thats where he looks his most comfortable.

I'd remove him from the Test side, but talk of removing him from the T20 and ODI sides is bordering on ludicrous.

Do you think sides enjoy seeing KP and Morgan within the same top order in an ODI? I certainly don't. Both slightly unorthodox, both capable of scoring all round the pitch, both real match winners that can savage a bowling attack. One poor series doesn't make Morgan a poor ODI batsman - he is still one of the finest in world cricket in my view.

" One poor series doesn't make Morgan a poor ODI batsman"

i dont think anyone has said he is a poor odi batsman- quite the contrary

mystiroakey wrote:i think any top level 50 over player can also perform at test level.

Michael Bevan? Probably the greatest ODI batsman of all-time, averaged less than 30 IIRC in tests. More recently Nathan Bracken (OK a bowler). Darren Lehmann was a decent test player but far better at ODIs. Andrew Symonds was a world class ODI player who "had his moments" at test level. As mentioned Neil Fairbrother (who was a fine ODI bat, second best "finisher" of his era after Bevan). Come to mention it Suresh Raina and Yuvraj Singh could well be in this category. Duminy? (although I think he could be a very good test player as well) I'm sure I could go on...

I admit to being slightly (?) biased about Morgan. This is for two reasons:

1) as a fellow associate I have a natural affinity with him.
2) This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SwIznDhXRs
here is Morgan catching up with a ball bowled at a fraction under 85mph, and (for want of a better description) straight-driving it over short third-man for 4. It is one of the 5 most amazing things I have seen in any sport (in cricketing terms, only Wasim Akram's delivery in the WC final which swung both ways comes close).

I think the struggles of both Bairstow and Buttler show that its a bit premature to talk about dumping/resting/rotating/executing Morgan who was by far Englands best limited overs bat prior to this series.

Someone does need to give him a hug, feed him opium, kick his bottom, sit him on the naughty step, leave him locked in a roiom with graham gooch for a week or whatever it will take to get his head straight though. The guy isnt able to execute his game at the moment, thats a problem.
Its also quite a common one that affects all players form time to time. I cant think of any England batsman who hasnt gone through the " surely he should be dropped" spell at some point. You could look at Tendulkars struggles over the last year and question his existance.

Tests is different as Mogs has never proven the doubts over him being picke din the first place were wrong. Hes been given a good extended run in the side to prove hes the nman for the job, but at some point England may have to look at options. Bopara must be calling up Gooch every day to remind him hes his favourite and point out hes batted pretty well in the limited overs games so far and weould offer a change bowling option in tests. James Taylor must be wondering at what point someone will remember his status as future test capatin.

I think it's a confidence thing. Morgan at his best has that swagger about him and you know he can hit you anywhere. Right now, he's just not backing himself. His reverse-sweep in the first ODI was surpisingly tentative; in the 2nd he only really tried two big shots (one of which he hit for 6). In the T20 again the shot he played to get out was somewhat half-hearted: it's as if he's playing the shot because he knows he should, but at the same time thinking "I'm not in form, do I really want to do this?"... not a good place to be.

I don't claim to know how Morgan works, but I think at the end of the day he really just needs a good innings, maybe the best thing for him would be a kind of hopeless situation when he can just throw the bat without worry because that's his only option.

IMO, Morgan along with these players should be starting in the next world cup:

Cook (he is the captain)
Pietersen
Trott
Broad

Then you have players like Anderson, Finn, Bresnan and Swann who will most probably play or be close but are not definites.

I didnt name Bevan because he was also a bowler of some note. You had never beaten the Aussies whilst he was in. He was also just not a test player.

Some players are just more suited to the shorter format and i believe that Mogs falls into that category.

Yes, you can remove him from tests (i would) but to remove him from the ODI and T20.... well that would be silly.

Mike Selig wrote:I think it's a confidence thing. Morgan at his best has that swagger about him and you know he can hit you anywhere. Right now, he's just not backing himself. His reverse-sweep in the first ODI was surpisingly tentative; in the 2nd he only really tried two big shots (one of which he hit for 6). In the T20 again the shot he played to get out was somewhat half-hearted: it's as if he's playing the shot because he knows he should, but at the same time thinking "I'm not in form, do I really want to do this?"... not a good place to be.

I don't claim to know how Morgan works, but I think at the end of the day he really just needs a good innings, maybe the best thing for him would be a kind of hopeless situation when he can just throw the bat without worry because that's his only option.

So would you think that moving him up the order in ODIs was perhaps a mistake? Moving him out of the finishers role puts more pressure on to play sensibly rather than purely his natural game. Weve seen this happen to KP too before, the openers pinch hitter role actually allows him to express himself fully and go out to dominate which is what brings out his arrogant best. It was good of England to back his talent in ODIs and show his test struggles havent affected their faith in him, but it perhaps hasnt worked in restoring his confidence.
Elsewhere theresa discussion about the saying " batting is only a case of seeing the ball and hitting the ball", the problem as you point out is that theres a whole bunch of mental issues to get over to allow you to do that and decide how best to hit the ball. The clip you showed demonstrates Morgan has the ability to see and hit balls, the suggestion is that hes putting mental blocks in the way of doing that at the moment.
Again hed hardly be unique in having gome through this.

honestly i think he could be a test player- if he can just get his form back- his avergae isnt great in tests- however he hasnt perfomred in any of them and still has a 30(the more worrying aspect is the 55 sr)

maybe all he needs is confidence, abit of form, play slightly more similar in tests and odis, and his average could improve alot.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
So would you think that moving him up the order in ODIs was perhaps a mistake?

I did think so at the time, but in the end he batted 5 anyway (which is much of a muchness with 6), and did ok.

I just think that he is trying too hard to perform and his natural game is suffering.

how on earth some people can question morgan's limited over place at this point in time baffles me.

be baffled all you want, do you think he should be in the tests?

what i find really baffling is how so many think he isnt a test player at all, i also find it realy baffling how people can be baffled for wanting him to get busy in county cricket to improve his test and odi abilties, and try some other players in that position for england at the same time- the next world cup is a long way away. time to stop getting baffled and weigh up the options

no he shouldnt he be in the test side..he is nowhere near good enough for test cricket..James taylor should be in there instead.

dont you think if he had more time to play 4 day stuff he couldnt get to the level

no i dont, because he has played f/c cricket before hand and struggled then, you can tell by his career record that his stronger suit is defo limited overs cricket, i think he neends to play 4 day cricket with the lions, thats they only way he will get better..

but he needs to practicse against international bowlers, not little 75mph bowlers in CC div 2.

As i said earlier, i just feel that Mogs falls into that category of players that are just limited over type players. I really just dont think that he has the ability to play test cricket. He will get the odd score but he rarely fills me with confidence in tests.

Agree that Taylor should be given the chance.

CF, middlesex did get promoted last season to be fair... But point well-taken. I do think he could become a good test player but I don't think he'll achieve that by playing county cricket.

He certainly won't improve his ODI abilities there.

England have already tried various other players in the middle-order, either alongside Morgan, or instead of him whilst he was out injured. None of them were as good as he is. You don't drop one of your best players just to weigh up options.