morgan yes or no? in all formats

First topic message reminder :

mine

20/20 yes
odi no
test no

at present anyway- hope he can proove me wrong

It's no real surprise that Morgan is a pretty poor Test player.

His F/C stats for Middlesex back this up.

39 Matches
67 Innings
1985 Runs
34.22 Average
4 x 100 (best of 137*) (Hundred every 16.75 innings)
11 x 50

Pretty shocking of you ask me, considering Lords is pretty good for batting.

Dropping him from the ODI wouldn't be very wise either.

His ODI stats for England only are brilliant

52 Matches
50 Innings
1563 Runs
40.07 Average
3 x 100 (best of 110*)
10 x 50
89.87 S/R

In terms of the best finishers in World cricket, he's probably third behind Dhoni and Michael Hussey. Not bad company at all.

He is a must in ODIs and T20s and his stats back that up.

I think he needs as much FC cricket as possible. For that reason I would play both him and Bopara in the warm-up matches in Sri Lanka. If Bopara outscores him or they get along roughly as well as each other, Bopara gets the place and Morgan has some more FC cricket under his belt - if Morgan does considerbaly better than Ravi then he's earned a right to play another 2 games.

I also feel, as I have said repeatedly, that he should pull out of the IPL - if he wants to keep a long term place he needs to play for Middx and he doesn't do that if he spends April and May benchwarming (most likely given the amount of overseas talent in the KKR squad) and then goes straight into the international summer over here.

Shelsey93 wrote:I also feel, as I have said repeatedly, that he should pull out of the IPL - if he wants to keep a long term place he needs to play for Middx and he doesn't do that if he spends April and May benchwarming (most likely given the amount of overseas talent in the KKR squad) and then goes straight into the international summer over here.

Whilst not being a big IPL fan, IIRC from IPL 4 - Morgan played every game he was available for, so I doubt he'll be benched in IPL 5. He's highly marketable in India, with his unique style.

Demon Racer wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:I also feel, as I have said repeatedly, that he should pull out of the IPL - if he wants to keep a long term place he needs to play for Middx and he doesn't do that if he spends April and May benchwarming (most likely given the amount of overseas talent in the KKR squad) and then goes straight into the international summer over here.

Whilst not being a big IPL fan, IIRC from IPL 4 - Morgan played every game he was available for, so I doubt he'll be benched in IPL 5. He's highly marketable in India, with his unique style.

He was in good form then though. I honestly can't see him displacing Kallis, B. McCullum, Lee, Shakib and ten Doeschate very often this time round, particularly with Gambhir, Tiwary, Bisla and Yusuf Pathan also part of the batting line-up. Particularly as his form during the IPL itself was sketchy at best.

Shelsey93 wrote:

Demon Racer wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:I also feel, as I have said repeatedly, that he should pull out of the IPL - if he wants to keep a long term place he needs to play for Middx and he doesn't do that if he spends April and May benchwarming (most likely given the amount of overseas talent in the KKR squad) and then goes straight into the international summer over here.

Whilst not being a big IPL fan, IIRC from IPL 4 - Morgan played every game he was available for, so I doubt he'll be benched in IPL 5. He's highly marketable in India, with his unique style.

He was in good form then though. I honestly can't see him displacing Kallis, B. McCullum, Lee, Shakib and ten Doeschate very often this time round, particularly with Gambhir, Tiwary, Bisla and Yusuf Pathan also part of the batting line-up. Particularly as his form during the IPL itself was sketchy at best.

Looking at the list of players, it does seem tough for Morgan to get into the playing XI!

Demon Racer wrote:It's no real surprise that Morgan is a pretty poor Test player.

His F/C stats for Middlesex back this up.

39 Matches
67 Innings
1985 Runs
34.22 Average
4 x 100 (best of 137*) (Hundred every 16.75 innings)
11 x 50

Pretty shocking of you ask me, considering Lords is pretty good for batting.

Trescothick? (prior to test career)

Shelsey93 wrote:
I think he needs as much FC cricket as possible. For that reason I would play both him and Bopara in the warm-up matches in Sri Lanka. If Bopara outscores him or they get along roughly as well as each other, Bopara gets the place and Morgan has some more FC cricket under his belt - if Morgan does considerbaly better than Ravi then he's earned a right to play another 2 games.

I also feel, as I have said repeatedly, that he should pull out of the IPL - if he wants to keep a long term place he needs to play for Middx and he doesn't do that if he spends April and May benchwarming (most likely given the amount of overseas talent in the KKR squad) and then goes straight into the international summer over here.

I don't agree. First class cricket simply doesn't prepare you for test cricket; and as I have said so often, first class excellence doesn't imply readiness for test cricket and conversely as well. In that regard the intensity of the IPL is a far better test of ability.

Mike

I think Morgan could benefit a little from playing a few four day games and hopefully learn how to build an innings again.

At present he either plays ODI's, T20's or tests and if he fails in a test, which he normally has, then he doesn't have that chance.

I know the level is below that of a test but I reckon it would do him good.

Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

Tests: No. I think he needs to play more first-class cricket. He could become a good Test cricketer - it's too early to write him off.

ODIs: Yes

T20Is: Yes

He needs to commit himself wholeheartedly to first class cricket in England to even be considered again for tests - he's done little to suggest that he'll ever be anything other than mediocre in the longest format. If he insists on taking the IPL shilling, then tell him to get stuffed.

Mike Selig wrote:

Demon Racer wrote:It's no real surprise that Morgan is a pretty poor Test player.

His F/C stats for Middlesex back this up.

39 Matches
67 Innings
1985 Runs
34.22 Average
4 x 100 (best of 137*) (Hundred every 16.75 innings)
11 x 50

Pretty shocking of you ask me, considering Lords is pretty good for batting.

Trescothick? (prior to test career)

Trescothick had a poor technique for English conditions, feet set in concrete.

Nevertheless, Trescothick was never a World class player.

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

He actually doesn't have to learn the orthodox type of batting technique which a lot of the cricketing textbooks say should be used by players who aspire to play at a test match level. All he needs to do is to maintain his hand-and-eye coordination standard of skills, and eventually the runs should come for him at a test match level. As the great South African left-hander Graeme Pollock has famously said when discussing the art of batting one particular day with the Australian Ian Chappell, at the end of the day it is still a "see the ball hit the ball game".

gb

however not completly sure about the pollock argument- all the same if there is a player that is a see it hit it type player then mogs is the player

mystiroakey wrote:gb

however not completly sure about the pollock argument- all the same if there is a player that is a see it hit it type player then mogs is the player

Agree with you there as Morgan is a bit like Pollock in the way that he is a player who plays his best cricket when he is going for his shots rather than by looking to try and rein himself in by playing the type of dogged, defensive type of innings like someone such as what Chris Tavare did back in the fourth ashes test in 1981.

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

I don't think it is a technical fault, but rather a mental one. And he won't sort out mental problems by playing in the Cc.

Stella, he knows how to build an innings, that is not the problem.

gboycottnut wrote:Agree with you there as Morgan is a bit like Pollock

.....up to a point Lord Copper!

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:Agree with you there as Morgan is a bit like Pollock

.....up to a point Lord Copper!

A bit like a monkey has 98% human DNA.

really- interesting seeing as scousers dont even have that much human dna

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

I don't think it is a technical fault, but rather a mental one. And he won't sort out mental problems by playing in the Cc.

Stella, he knows how to build an innings, that is not the problem.

No technical issues?????

The swaying head is a big one.

errmm starting to think i am the only sane one here- my boy bairstow
kills it and mogs is proving he is stuck in some eternal rut- needs a
change up- CC for sure- bairstow needs to be given the chance in both
limited over formats 100%- even in the first 20/20 although he wasnt
great- still hang about, wereas mogs just lazily fked it

Stella wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

I don't think it is a technical fault, but rather a mental one. And he won't sort out mental problems by playing in the Cc.

Stella, he knows how to build an innings, that is not the problem.

No technical issues?????

The swaying head is a big one.

Then why doesn't it bother him in ODIs. Anyway the head movement is exacerbated by his mental problems.

it does !! thats why- guy looks like a jelly out there

Mike Selig wrote:

Stella wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

I don't think it is a technical fault, but rather a mental one. And he won't sort out mental problems by playing in the Cc.

Stella, he knows how to build an innings, that is not the problem.

No technical issues?????

The swaying head is a big one.

Then why doesn't it bother him in ODIs. Anyway the head movement is exacerbated by his mental problems.

I'm sure that his head movement didn't negatively affect his batting when he was in form with the bat for England in the ODI matches in the past. As I have said many times, batting comes down to a see the ball hit the ball situation of which Morgan does excel at due to having good hand-to-eye coordination skills. All he needs is to get some runs under his belt and his confidence will return back to what it was when he first played for England.

gboycottnut wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

Stella wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

I don't think it is a technical fault, but rather a mental one. And he won't sort out mental problems by playing in the Cc.

Stella, he knows how to build an innings, that is not the problem.

No technical issues?????

The swaying head is a big one.

Then why doesn't it bother him in ODIs. Anyway the head movement is exacerbated by his mental problems.

I'm sure that his head movement didn't negatively affect his batting when he was in form with the bat for England in the ODI matches in the past. As I have said many times, batting comes down to a see the ball hit the ball situation of which Morgan does excel at due to having good hand-to-eye coordination skills. All he needs is to get some runs under his belt and his confidence will return back to what it was when he first played for England.

He is moving his head noticeably more than he used to though, but in my opinion it is more a case of him moving his head more because he's not scoring runs than vice-versa. It is well-known that when under pressure you tend to accentuate any faults/excentricities you have. Morgan is clearly under pressure now.

Mike Selig wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

Stella wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Mike, you keep saying that Mogs could be a test player one day, you keep saying that CC is not where he will learn the technique to playe test cricket. Can i ask why you feel he will be a good test player and where you think that he will learn the technique if not in CC?

I don't think it is a technical fault, but rather a mental one. And he won't sort out mental problems by playing in the Cc.

Stella, he knows how to build an innings, that is not the problem.

No technical issues?????

The swaying head is a big one.

Then why doesn't it bother him in ODIs. Anyway the head movement is exacerbated by his mental problems.

I'm sure that his head movement didn't negatively affect his batting when he was in form with the bat for England in the ODI matches in the past. As I have said many times, batting comes down to a see the ball hit the ball situation of which Morgan does excel at due to having good hand-to-eye coordination skills. All he needs is to get some runs under his belt and his confidence will return back to what it was when he first played for England.

He is moving his head noticeably more than he used to though, but in my opinion it is more a case of him moving his head more because he's not scoring runs than vice-versa. It is well-known that when under pressure you tend to accentuate any faults/excentricities you have. Morgan is clearly under pressure now.

A bit like what Eric Bristow seemed to do in Darts during the latter stages of his professional career when he kept on throwing a dart with a raised toe/foot action of the floor whilst throwing a dart.

Never been convinced by Morgan at Test level and although the selectors' faith in him is to be admired, I'm not sure that they've been right to continue to play him.
I agree that a spell in country cricket WOULD do him good. There's nothing like runs on the board. Morgan could come again, but I reckon in five years' time he won't have played many more Tests than now and that Bopara will be established.

sirfredperry wrote:Never been convinced by Morgan at Test level and although the selectors' faith in him is to be admired, I'm not sure that they've been right to continue to play him.
I agree that a spell in country cricket WOULD do him good. There's nothing like runs on the board. Morgan could come again, but I reckon in five years' time he won't have played many more Tests than now and that Bopara will be established.

Bopara. Are you having a laugh or what. Bopara can't even get into the test team at present.

Well he can't get in because they're persevering with Morgan. Yes, Bopara has come up short so far, but to me he looks more of a Test player than Morgan.

sirfredperry wrote:
I agree that a spell in country cricket WOULD do him good. There's nothing like runs on the board.

Someone should have told Ramprakash and Trescothick that then... He needs runs, but he needs runs under pressure to get his confidence back. I've seen it time and time again (e.g. Strauss last summer scored runs for fun when playing county cricket, but was out of form all summer in tests), even at my level: scoring runs in meaningless games does little for confidence in your ability to step up. Were it a case of Morgan being impetuous (so needing time at the crease to learn some patience) or even a case of a technical fault needing ironing out (e.g. stop playing the cover drive with an upright front leg) I would agree, but honestly for mental issues? I don't have a cure other than a few kicks and/or hugs, and runs under pressure to be able to believe in yourself again.

It looks like Flower's made up his mind that Morgan won't be playing the tests in Sri Lanka:

"He's had little glimpses of success, I think he's got a couple of Test centuries. But he's had a tough tour of the UAE, there's no doubt about that. And I think his record would suggest that he's found Test cricket pretty tough. I think he's averaging about 30 so he's got some work to do in that regard."

Sounds very much like the "thanks, but we'll look at other options now" Steve Finn was given after the Perth test in Aus.

If Morgan is not going to play in the Sri Lanka Tests, it does sound like Flower is planning on using just the five frontline batsmen with Prior the keeper batting at 6 and play a 5 man bowling attack which then is likely to include the in-form Steven Finn.

gboycottnut wrote:If Morgan is not going to play in the Sri Lanka Tests, it does sound like Flower is planning on using just the five frontline batsmen with Prior the keeper batting at 6 and play a 5 man bowling attack which then is likely to include the in-form Steven Finn.

What gives you that impression? Why would Flower weaken the most fragile part of the team and strengthen the most reliable. Defies logic on all sorts of levels.

In answer to the OP, I'd say keep him for all formats, but I think Flower has pretty much made his mind up for the Tests. Question is, who replaces him? Bopara or someone new? Bairstow or Taylor perhaps.

Mike Selig wrote:It looks like Flower's made up his mind that Morgan won't be playing the tests in Sri Lanka:

"He's had little glimpses of success, I think he's got a couple of Test centuries. But he's had a tough tour of the UAE, there's no doubt about that. And I think his record would suggest that he's found Test cricket pretty tough. I think he's averaging about 30 so he's got some work to do in that regard."

Sounds very much like the "thanks, but we'll look at other options now" Steve Finn was given after the Perth test in Aus.

Sounds like Flower doesnt pay much attention " I think hes got a couple of centuries" ?

I wouldnt read too much into that. Hes not hideing from the fact that Morgans struggled, and very much so on this tour, but all hes said is he hass work to do. No burying is head in the sand ( a la KP) but nothing concrete that means hes goign to be dropped...just that they recognise he needs some graft in the nets.

If he does get ditched for SL Id assume Bopara would come in, who would make it easier for England to play two spinners should they need to. Bringing in Finn for a proper 5 man attack just seems needlesly risky in exstending the tail, although if with Broad Bresnan and Swann its not a ludicorus suggestion. Given how much Englands batting struggled against Pakistan I suspect theyll stick to the 6 4 split though.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:It looks like Flower's made up his mind that Morgan won't be playing the tests in Sri Lanka:

"He's had little glimpses of success, I think he's got a couple of Test centuries. But he's had a tough tour of the UAE, there's no doubt about that. And I think his record would suggest that he's found Test cricket pretty tough. I think he's averaging about 30 so he's got some work to do in that regard."

Sounds very much like the "thanks, but we'll look at other options now" Steve Finn was given after the Perth test in Aus.

Sounds like Flower doesnt pay much attention " I think hes got a couple of centuries" ?

I wouldnt read too much into that. Hes not hideing from the fact that Morgans struggled, and very much so on this tour, but all hes said is he hass work to do. No burying is head in the sand ( a la KP) but nothing concrete that means hes goign to be dropped...just that they recognise he needs some graft in the nets.

If he does get ditched for SL Id assume Bopara would come in, who would make it easier for England to play two spinners should they need to. Bringing in Finn for a proper 5 man attack just seems needlesly risky in exstending the tail, although if with Broad Bresnan and Swann its not a ludicorus suggestion. Given how much Englands batting struggled against Pakistan I suspect theyll stick to the 6 4 split though.

I don't think you know Andy Flower that well. He knows Morgan's record exactly (he DOES have exactly 2 centuries and of course Flower knew this). The reason I brought up this quote was that to me it sounded exactly like an interview Flower gave after the Perth test, when he was asked about possible team changes and talked of the need for more control with the ball. It was obviously setting the scene to dropping Finn (who had taken wickets but been expensive) which they duly did.

Gordon Lord uses the term "compassionately ruthless" to describe this sort of quote: ruthless - "he's not doing the job we want right now and we've just lost so we're going to have some changes"; compassion - "he's a good player who remains very much in our plans if he goes and sorts his game out". Essentially that's the content of what Flower said, if you read between the lines somewhat. I have no doubt Morgan knew the score, this is just Flower's way of communicating.

Well yep youre correct, hes been executed for high treason.

Flowers been fair to him, and honest. Youd assume theyve given him targets and a plan to get back and will help him do the required work.

This is a video of Morgan scoring 67 from 34 balls in 2009. Look at him at the crease, he really didn't use to crouch much if at all and now he's almost on the floor during the bowlers delivery stride. Very odd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUL8nl57StI&feature=player_embedded#!

He does still do that bobble thing whilst waiting. It's a lot more pronounced now because he's under pressure and not scoring runs.

Perhaps better to show an innings where he shouldnt have been out first ball!