Fine line between winning and losing.

Well the England Wales match finally lived up to its billing and we were given a great game of rugby that drew us in right to the end. It seems that Wales is unable to escape controversy and a draw would´ve been an appropriate reflection of both sides' endeavour. (Just an aside, can a Triple Crown only be awarded for 3 victories or can the honours be shared for two wins and a draw, as in a Double and one half pint chaser crown).

Many were predicting a Wales victory (not just the Welsh posters) and many thought home advantage for England would be decisive. England were shown not to be as bad as many on here said and Wales were shown to be frailer than many would have liked to admit. To me this just shows that the 6N is an absorbing tournament as most teams are evenly ranked and some teams enjoy an advantage over certain other teams but those teams are invariably mutually exclusive.

So what have we learned from this match? Firstly, Wales seem to have a tougher mental edge to them. That´s twice where they´ve been down to 14 men and behind on the scoreboard and yet they´ve refused to give up and have battled to the end. In years gone by, Wales would've found ways to lose both those matches against Ireland and England. Secondly, Wales are still not playing their top game and finding a way to win. Many times on here I have read on their day Wales can beat any side. But whilst there has been much to admire about their play, they are still far from perfect. Their lineout looks shaky, Priestland had a match to forget on the weekend, North made a few mistakes and the attack was made to look a little blunted. Much of that can be attributed to the spirited display of England that looked as if it shocked the Welsh players or at least put them under sustained pressure that other teams so far have largely failed to do. And yet Wales found ways to dig deep and come out on top. This seems a marked improvement on the efforts of recent years where Wales may have turned up for 60 minutes and fell away in the last quarter or made crucial errors at key moments throughout the match.

There is a definite marked improvement with players in key positions compared with other years. Warburton makes the thought of life after Martyn Williams a welcome one. But really the core of this side is much the same. I just think the balance is better and there are a better spread of key players for Wales. Ryan Jones is a welcome return but often it´s the relatively inexperienced players who are shining. But where Wales failed to perform consistently in the last few years, they seem to have a new resolve this year. Is there much difference though? Certainly when you look at the results this year, it´s not difficult to imagine the results going the other way. Maybe the same can be said for games in the past that Wales lost instead of winning. Australia went 10 games without beating NZ but if you look at the results there were an incredible amount of matches where the margin was 6 points or less. What a difference a win does to your confidence (fans and team alike!) but often what a very small margin between winning and losing.

Which brings me to England. A loss at home against Wales seems difficult to bear. But this is a side still with injury problems under a caretaker coach. There was a lot to be enthused about on the weekend and the return of Tuilagi in particular ignited the backline not only on attack but also on defence. England gave away very little on defence and looked threatening on attack on more than a few occasions. And much like Wales, this was by far a complete performance. England are capable of much more and so I think there´s little to separate the sides at the moment. The England Ireland match will be another great litmus test for where this English side stands as they´ve been incapable of beating that side for a while now. For all of Ireland´s inconsistencies away from Europe they are usually a model of consistency in the 6N.

So whilst Italy and Scotland have been somewhat off the pace this year, they have shown glimpses that they can be a thorn in the side for the rest of the 6N sides. The remaining sides may have bragging rights over certain teams but there is very little to separate the other sides. A Grand Slam decider looms in Cardiff but anything can still happen until then. Certainly there is no one side dominating the tournament this year and it has been one of the most even competitions for some time in that respect and that to me is pleasing because generally the quality has been higher than previous years.

So before you post about your side´s dominance over the other, sit back and take a moment to reflect how easily your side and your temperament might be given a few things going against you. Winning is addictive but you have to recognise that many times a win could so easily have been a loss and v.v. The smallest of margins can sometimes grow into yawning chasms when assessing your own team´s performance. We´re all guilty of it. It´s national pride at stake after all. But deep down, we know sometimes there´s a coat of paint in it, a video ref decision that doesn´t go your way, a penalty that never comes, a bounce of the ball that goes against you.

So well done to the victors but there has been much to cheer about even from the defeated sides. Let us not forget that.

Nice post Kia. Didn't see it I guess it got lost in all the other bickering threads that were started. Glad to see you're enjoying this years 6N

It's a nice thread, but I don't think it's been an even tourny so far, the only shock was the France Ireland game cancellation, every result has gone the way it was expected to.

Scotland and Italy have been way off the mark at times, and the French and English have only beaten them.

I can understand why people are talking about a Wales GS, Italy up before the decider but France havn't played anyone of note yet, France GS hopes are exactly the same now as they were pre tournament.

I really don't think GS's are as easy to come by as some people think, after round 2 I had heard England and France being touted but they hadn't played a strong team yet, how crazy does that sound in perspective???!!!

Sorry if this sounds negative but before the tourny I went to the bookies and it was being described as a 2 horse race, dependant on an Irish shock, and as we sit here after round 3 (for most) it has only been exactly how we all thought.

I listened to a freind before the tourny and he's called every result so far within 3 points (except for the Irish Italy score, he was 9 points out)

Sorry for the negative view on things.

PS I do have money on the remaining games of his predictions.

Kia..

Good report.

I think the reason many England fans are frustrated is because most of us were expecting a right royal :Hump: and we were so close to victory...

But Wales are a good side..and deserved their victory...no qualms with that.

Lets hope this, Scotlands new found backs.... etc...can drive up the competition between the teams and ultimately give the Southern Hemisphere boys a proper game....

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's a nice thread, but I don't think it's been an even tourny so far, the only shock was the France Ireland game cancellation, every result has gone the way it was expected to.

You have to be kidding. Plenty of people were tipping Scotland to win the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield (where England hadn't won since 2004) and hardly anyone expected Wales to come away from Dublin with a victory.

Kia,
good assessment.

Geordie,
fully concur, Wales are a good side. England annoyingly close behind.
(annoying as in for both sets of fans)

Ruby
You there ?

Geordie - I understand, it was a very close game. I came on the boards on monday to actually congratulate Englands good performance and saw a lot of bickering (from both sides) I too got caught up in this (Shame on me ) I kind of gave up then. It was just refreshing to read Kia's write up.

Doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by all those of the southern hemispherian persuiasion.

"Take five minutes from Wales’ season and things look very different. They trailed with four minutes to go against England and with four seconds to go against Ireland. That they dug their way out of both is a credit to them but they haven’t done it with a shovel alone. Even if they deserve to be undefeated at this point, they’ve needed two marginal calls to get there. Fans who believe they have assembled the best squad in Europe won’t be pleased with their form."

http://www.wait-of-a-nation.com/2012/02/28/wales-stagger-on/

The thing that bothers me, is that England will be short of a grandslam just on three poor refereeing decisions in the Welsh "loss".

kia, Good report and a fair one at that. yes the England v Wales was mutch closer than i thought it would be. Wales did well to hang in their with 14 and not let their heads go down like they had in previous years.

England though very good peformance and a very good deffence by the whole squad.

Reagrding the Grand Slam, i personaly beofore the tournament did not think that their would be a Grand Slam. But for now it looks like Wales could well be in with a shot, it will depend on what happens this week in the Ireland - France game, if France win this week end it could well be a France v Wales Grand Slam decider.

They trailed with four minutes to go against England

Erm... we were drawing with 5 minutes to go against England. Try using write ups that are accurate.

Impossible Standards wrote:

They trailed with four minutes to go against England

Erm... we were drawing with 5 minutes to go against England. Try using write ups that are accurate.

Fair dues. It was 7 minutes.

Fair dues. It was 7 minutes.

That's better!

Luckless the Bookies called both!!!

If's and but's are useless, you can use them in any game, England may well have drawn with Wales yet if we apply that Scotland would have won at Murrayfeild so England lose a point.

Performances are a very good indicator of whats in front of the winning side and how the day went, Scorelines are a good indicator of how the Tourny went, tight game V Ireland, 14 point win V Scots and 7 point win at Twickers...

'Fine Line' ? no... it was a 'smashing humiliation' of course.
So come on guys, until we all admit this, the poor old Wales fans will find it impossible to move on, and will keep returning like pups to their vomit ! This 'fine line' is a very difficult concept for the poor pups to digest.

Impossible Standards wrote:

Fair dues. It was 7 minutes.

That's better!

Probably should have been 10 minutes if Walsh had remembered England had the advantage, 11 maybe considering a minute whilst Flood added the conversion,

MMM...

miteyironpaw wrote:Doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by all those of the southern hemispherian persuiasion.

"Take five minutes from Wales’ season and things look very different. They trailed with four minutes to go against England and with four seconds to go against Ireland. That they dug their way out of both is a credit to them but they haven’t done it with a shovel alone. Even if they deserve to be undefeated at this point, they’ve needed two marginal calls to get there. Fans who believe they have assembled the best squad in Europe won’t be pleased with their form."

http://www.wait-of-a-nation.com/2012/02/28/wales-stagger-on/

The thing that bothers me, is that England will be short of a grandslam just on three poor refereeing decisions in the Welsh "loss".

I've supported Wales since the mid-1950s and couldn't really argue with the southern hemisphere points about marginal calls. But the thing that bothers me is an England fan using inverted commas round "loss". Marginal it may have been, but England did lose. To misquote a great southern hemisphere player, Graham Mourie, is it a case of "You never beat England, you just score more points than them"?

To quote Vin Diesel;

It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, a win is a win.

8 - 3 is a win

20 - 3 is a Win

67 - 3 is a WIN

104 -3 is just getting ridiculous!

There are different brands of 'win'. The brand of 'win' dictates how loudly you can crow. I guess the thread suggests some sides have won, others have lost...but few sides can genuinely crow.......................... yet.

In my world a 1 point win gets you the same amount of points as a 100 point win... 2! And what do 5 2's make???

thebluesmancometh wrote:In my world a 1 point win gets you the same amount of points as a 100 point win... 2! And what do 5 2's make???

This week it's the same ammount of points as a 100 point win.... two weeks down the line, or three weeks down the line, and it might be a ref getting blamed because the opposition picked off a one point win at the death. We see what we want to see. Happiness loves winning; Regret loves loopholes.

Ah finally putting your hands up for using the likes of Botha, Hartley, Hape, Flutey etc...

Me? - I'm Irish... we don't use 'English' cast-offs

I bet we have more English cast offs that can speak Welsh than you have Irishmen that can!

miteyironpaw wrote:

The thing that bothers me, is that England will be short of a grandslam just on three poor refereeing decisions in the Welsh "loss".

Hi Mitey,
For one who previously discounted the ref in the 2007 Ab France quarter final AND the SA Oz World cup quarter final, insisting both teams should have made up for the inconsistencies of the ref you sure like to bring it up here when of the 3 Walsh is a distant 3rd in terms of bad performance...like we said...until it happens to you...

The...ref...was...not...the...cause...of...the...loss.

England had every chance to win this game and didn't. It was a close affair where both teams fronted but couldn't finish off a lot of chances. Immensely enjoyable...right to the end where I think that match culminated in over a year of waiting between the two to see where things are at.

I'd say overall, with completely contrasting styles, team make up, execution etc... on the whole they're pretty even and I think the match reflected that.

miteyironpaw wrote:Doesn't seem to be an opinion shared by all those of the southern hemispherian persuiasion.

"Take five minutes from Wales’ season and things look very different. They trailed with four minutes to go against England and with four seconds to go against Ireland. That they dug their way out of both is a credit to them but they haven’t done it with a shovel alone. Even if they deserve to be undefeated at this point, they’ve needed two marginal calls to get there. Fans who believe they have assembled the best squad in Europe won’t be pleased with their form."

http://www.wait-of-a-nation.com/2012/02/28/wales-stagger-on/

The thing that bothers me, is that England will be short of a grandslam just on three poor refereeing decisions in the Welsh "loss".

It's great, plucky England lost at home to a misfiring welsh team, down to 14 men and a flakey ref.

This is getting sweeter by the minute.

Taylorman wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

The thing that bothers me, is that England will be short of a grandslam just on three poor refereeing decisions in the Welsh "loss".

Hi Mitey,
For one who previously discounted the ref in the 2007 Ab France quarter final AND the SA Oz World cup quarter final, insisting both teams should have made up for the inconsistencies of the ref you sure like to bring it up here when of the 3 Walsh is a distant 3rd in terms of bad performance...like we said...until it happens to you...

The...ref...was...not...the...cause...of...the...loss.

England had every chance to win this game and didn't. It was a close affair where both teams fronted but couldn't finish off a lot of chances. Immensely enjoyable...right to the end where I think that match culminated in over a year of waiting between the two to see where things are at.

I'd say overall, with completely contrasting styles, team make up, execution etc... on the whole they're pretty even and I think the match reflected that.

thank you taylorman, I have always said people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I was berated big time by my dear friend Mitey when I used LAwrence as one of the reasons we lost.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I bet we have more English cast offs that can speak Welsh than you have Irishmen that can!

No Irishman can speak Welsh. That's official.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I bet we have more English cast offs that can speak Welsh than you have Irishmen that can!

No Irishman can speak Welsh. That's official.

Ah c'mon, don't be so narrow-minded mun! There's bound to be a couple of Irishmen who were brought up and went to school in Wales and therefore can speak Welsh a little, if not very well

Had it up to here with generalisations!

biltongbek wrote:

thank you taylorman, I have always said people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I was berated big time by my dear friend Mitey when I used LAwrence as one of the reasons we lost.

Shows its still a problem. For me, Lawrence and Walsh had nothing on Barnes. Same will be for you and Mitey where when its not your team we can all can find a holier than thou balanced view of it all. That's because we don't attach the emotion of the loss to it, as you know.

Blaming the ref is definitely an outlet and in all 3 matches referred to here, yes the result could have been different if the ref had done something different, correct etc.

The real issue is it is common...varying degrees, but common. And its going to happen again and the more it happens , more will be put off the game and also those wanting to become refs.

Of the matches for the rest of 2012 it'll likely happen another 5 or 6 times from sxv level up at least. Question is, can the game afford this as an integral part of it?

That is why I will keep on advocating that the laws must be simplified.

Yeah and easier said than done.
I remember when we used to slag cricket and tennis umpires off before cyclops type technology came in but now we don't so often with the ability to review etc.

So without changing the rules significantly technology was able to be incorporated to improve the quality. They should take that approach first before having the players change what they do for the sake of easier rules.

Its a bigger challenge for the techs but with whats around now, an unseen knock on before a try, a blatant offside etc if these types of things were picked up by review the extra few seconds would be worth it in terms of getting the right result.

And getting picked up might mean players wont offend so much, knowing their hand will be slapped.

A combination of technology and some simplification of the rules certainly.

Problem is tennis doesn't have many rules, and none of them can be incorrectly interpreted.

Where as rugby has a myriad of different interpretations for the laws, hence technology on its own or even more match officials won't solve the problem.

So to paraphrase Kia: "don't get excited you would both lose to us"



Mathematicians would be interested in your article as the theory of zero (the difference between even teams) has been exercising them for years.

thebluesmancometh wrote:To quote Vin Diesel;

It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, a win is a win.

I find that amusing, given that the Welsh are traditionally among the biggest excuse merchants in world rugby when they do lose. In fact it's always the refs fault when they lose according to some, whether they lose by an inch or a mile. Either because he's biased, or because he didn't notice the other team cheating their way to victory. (note: I'm not painting all Welsh people with this brush, just some)

In the last two 6 Nations Ireland have lost two close games to Wales thanks to dubious refereeing decisions (and one of the most blatant cases of cheating for a try in recent memory). And on neither occasion have I heard a single Welshman complain about the ref.

I've no problem with you saying "a win is a win", when you win.
As long as you say the same when you lose.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:To quote Vin Diesel;

It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, a win is a win.

I find that amusing, given that the Welsh are traditionally among the biggest excuse merchants in world rugby when they do lose. In fact it's always the refs fault when they lose according to some, whether they lose by an inch or a mile. Either because he's biased, or because he didn't notice the other team cheating their way to victory. (note: I'm not painting all Welsh people with this brush, just some)

In the last two 6 Nations Ireland have lost two close games to Wales thanks to dubious refereeing decisions (and one of the most blatant cases of cheating for a try in recent memory). And on neither occasion have I heard a single Welshman complain about the ref.

I've no problem with you saying "a win is a win", when you win.
As long as you say the same when you lose.

Feckless,

What dd the ref get wrong on Saturday That caused England to lose?

Allan was awful in Cardiff. Ireland should have won, and still had a chance to.

However when you see the refereeing travesties that have been in the pro12 over the years...

slartibartfast wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:To quote Vin Diesel;

It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, a win is a win.

I find that amusing, given that the Welsh are traditionally among the biggest excuse merchants in world rugby when they do lose. In fact it's always the refs fault when they lose according to some, whether they lose by an inch or a mile. Either because he's biased, or because he didn't notice the other team cheating their way to victory. (note: I'm not painting all Welsh people with this brush, just some)

In the last two 6 Nations Ireland have lost two close games to Wales thanks to dubious refereeing decisions (and one of the most blatant cases of cheating for a try in recent memory). And on neither occasion have I heard a single Welshman complain about the ref.

I've no problem with you saying "a win is a win", when you win.
As long as you say the same when you lose.

Feckless,

What dd the ref get wrong on Saturday That caused England to lose?

Rub of the green though isn't it? The decisions that helped Wales win against Ireland and England were borderline decisions. The same thing can be argued in saying Sam Warburton should have only seen yellow in the World Cup semi final against France.

slartibartfast wrote:
Feckless,

What dd the ref get wrong on Saturday That caused England to lose?

Nothing. I was talking about Ireland's defeats in the last two 6 Nations. I think Wales beat England because of a moment of magic from a Welsh player. If you want to look for further reasons, I guess Lancasters substitutions could be pointed at. Youngs in particular kept putting his teams on the back foot.

By the way, Wales are currently the best of the home nations. They were the better team against Ireland for sure. And we'll see if they're better than France too on the last weekend. I'm not trying to say they're top because of luck. They are the most impressive team so far. I was just commenting on the tendency of some Welsh posters to blame everyone but their own players when they lose. Mostly the ref. So simply saying "a win is a win" when they win, is a bit hypocritical. Especially when they've had the rub from the ref.

Yes, but that's what comes from being passionate see, we can't help it

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's a nice thread, but I don't think it's been an even tourny so far, the only shock was the France Ireland game cancellation, every result has gone the way it was expected to.

Scotland and Italy have been way off the mark at times, and the French and English have only beaten them.

I can understand why people are talking about a Wales GS, Italy up before the decider but France havn't played anyone of note yet, France GS hopes are exactly the same now as they were pre tournament.

I really don't think GS's are as easy to come by as some people think, after round 2 I had heard England and France being touted but they hadn't played a strong team yet, how crazy does that sound in perspective???!!!

Sorry if this sounds negative but before the tourny I went to the bookies and it was being described as a 2 horse race, dependant on an Irish shock, and as we sit here after round 3 (for most) it has only been exactly how we all thought.

I listened to a freind before the tourny and he's called every result so far within 3 points (except for the Irish Italy score, he was 9 points out)

Sorry for the negative view on things.

I´m not sure you can say every game has gone the result people expected. It might be every result has gone the way you hoped for. Plenty of punters picked Ireland winning at home and Scotland pipping England. Those go down as losses for those teams but it wasn't by any means a foregone conclusion. The France Ireland match may have thrown up an anomaly but Scotland has improved on every performance so far. Whilst, along with Italy, they´re a step down from the others they are by no means easy beats even though the other sides should expect to beat them.

When Wales were losing the crucial matches they weren´t as bad as many people made them out to be. But I´m certainly not underestimating the power of winning in terms of giving a side confidence. Indeed, I think it´s possible to look at the confidence of fans as a direct correlation with their side´s confidence. Winning is an addictive drug but often we fail to realise how that drug can turn into withdrawal symptoms.

Glas a du wrote:Yes, but that's what comes from being passionate see, we can't help it

Passionate Italians - Fools

Passionate Scots - Next season...maybe

Passionate Englishmen - Actors

Passionate Frenchmen - Only when their psychiatrist says it's ok

Passionate Irishmen - Strictly one per game only

Passionate Welshmen - 28 Days Later

kia: Excellent article. I agreed with everything you said which is probably immoral if not actually illegal.

Feckless

Ah Vin Diesel, that well known rugby whiner!!! Where did you go from action hero to whininhg welshmen, thats a poor link even for you!!

Blatant cheating? Because Phillips chanced his arm with a quick lineout near 50 metres out? Come on, it was exactly the same as a scrum half tap and going from not quite behind the scrum... well in my view anyway

If the referee didn't see it, its not cheating.

Rugby's Razor.

IronMike wrote:If the referee didn't see it, its not cheating.

Rugby's Razor.

True, but when the referee sees it and does nothing, then he is enabling a system allready controversial and outdated.

fine line... yeah, its called the Try line, something the Scots have found in this 6n more times than us