Morgan out-Patel in for Sri Lanka

Seems Strauss and Flower have called time on Morgan's test career for the time being anyway. Samit Patel replaces him in the Test side. I see why they have brought Patel in. A genuine all rounder who can bowl plenty of overs and contribute with the bat. My only annoyance with Patel is that when England dropped him and told him to go work on his fitness, he came back and swore he had lost 3 stone or something. From what I saw and still see, he simply went away and came back the same, claiming to be something he wasn't. Apart from that he is a good cricketer that does have natural talent. Whether they see him as the long term future 6 for England is open to debate. His batting should come first and foremost if included, that is the only way I can see it justifiable to drop Morgan for him.

Come to think of it they may even go for Bopara at 6 due to his recent form in the ODI's, then surely it is last chance saloon as far as his test career goes.

Even worse..............Tredwell is in.

I think Patel is in as spinner cover, as is Tredwell. He also gives England an option for England if they want to play 5 bowlers, but I think that is very unlikely. Bopara will replace Morgan at number 6 and that'll be the only change from the last Test, barring any injuries.

Woah what the hell?

OK morgan out fine, surprised he dfidnt make the squad but I gues it ends any speculation and gives him a chance to get his head together at home. Hopefully he will still be receiving some targetted coaching though, and I assume will make the limited overs squads?

4 spimnners though? Seriously? I guess tehy are looking to rest Swann at some point and have decided they will play 2 spinners as a matter of course. Patel gives the option of making one of those a number 6 batsman, although frankly I dont see him as good enough in either capacity for tests ....nor has he doen enough in Pakistan to suggest hes suddenly better. Tredwell as backup ...well hmm. Hmm? Hmmm.

Guess that leaves a test lineup of
The top 5
Bopara or Patel (with the option of Bresnan or Finn if they want a fifth out and out bowler but Id be surprissed if they do that before the top 5 prove they are on form and able to make good runs in Sri Lanka)
Prior
Broad
Anderson
Swan
Panessar

I suppose the thinking behind having Tredwell and Patel is that they have direct replacements now for the 2 spinners in the team. The England management must be seeing something in Patel that they hadn't before. They asked him to improve his fitness and his attitude and I think so far he has.

4 spinners against great players of spin on wickets that may not turn that much.

Not sure I agree either.

Not surprised Morgan is out. Only two Tests after two 3day warm ups so not much point in taking a batsman you don't really want to use , and clearly Bopara and Patel appeal more for the longer game at present - they both looked in better nick even in the one day stuff in Arabia.

Surely Tredwell is just there in case Swann gets injured.

Patel could be preferred to Bopara if England decide from the conditions to play three fast bowlers, but still want a second spinner.

So : Cook/Strauss/Trott/KP/Bell/Prior/Broad/Swann/Anderson all set barring injury , with the two other spots filled by either :
1/ Bopara/Panesar
2/Bresnan/Panesar
3 Patel/Finn ...

Could be other combinations I guess but I can't see the point of three spinners so assume Patel will only play if they really want to play the extra seamer yet don't wish to shorten the batting.

Seems a reasonable choice of options.

no suprise that mogs is out, but i would have gone for James taylor over patel for the test side..

however this now means that we will play 3 quicks, with patel batting 6/7, and bowling spin, so only one frontline spinner, and patel bowling.

Or Bopara in at 6...

Patel will be a back up..........won't he?

Quite annoyed at the axing of Morgan. Think he deserved another crack of whip. If they go with Bopara, are they going to give him a longer stretch in the side? Would just seem silly to chop and change between Morgan and Bopara.

Stella wrote:Patel will be a back up..........won't he?

Well hed be competing with Bopara for the number 6 bat / 5th bowling option.

Id hope yes but maybe they want to always have a left arm slow in the side. On a seamer friendly pitch play 3 front line seamers and swann, plus Patel, as a fill in. On a spin friendly wicket go with Panessar, Swann, and two front line seamers plus Patel.

Who knows though.

morgan has had a very long run in the test side, stemming from the pakistan home series, and hasnt looked convincing at all..

i would rather james taylor got the nod, but if samit gets the nod, then best of luck to him.

i honestly think he would have been given another chance if he wasnt going for the money in india over the summer- We are the no.1 ranked crcket team and i suppose the selectors are like- he cant even be bothered.

but then replace him with patel- who couldnt be bothered to shift weight last year to get in the WC! ermmmm, well he certainly looks better and has obviously tryed! but he is certainly still miles short of englands average fitness levels

mystiroakey wrote:i honestly think he would have been given another chance if he wasnt going for the money in india over the summer- We are the no.1 ranked crcket team and i suppose the selectors are like- he cant even be bothered.

but then replace him with patel- who couldnt be bothered to shift weight last year to get in the WC! ermmmm, well he certainly looks better and has obviously tryed! but he is certainly still miles short of englands average fitness levels

you couldnt possibly know that!

he must be fit enough, because flower took a dim view last time, so for him to be selected he must be fit enough, weight wise!!

Cf its quite obvious he is below the average england teams fitness levels! i dont really understand your point- we all know that, bar you perhaps!

however my point is that at least he has tried and is dealing with his problems- morgan isnt willing to!

my point is, his fitness levels must be good enough, otherwise he wouldnt have been selected!

Yep he made the change and good on him. Strange he didnt do it sooner- Morgan may knock the IPL on the head next year and get back in. maybe all the england selectors want is for our players to prove they will do what it takes.

I'm puzzled by Tredwell's squad place.

I can't see any way that he'll be playing a Test with surely Swann, Panesar and Patel ahead of him in the pecking order.

Alfie makes the point that Tredwell must be there as a cover in case Swann gets injured. I understand the reasoning but would emphasise that neither Panesar or Patel are guaranteed to play at this stage and so we already have sufficient slow bowling cover.

I would actually question whether we need sixteen players for a two match Test series. Through no fault of his own, Davies is set to be a spare part. Do we need another?

I think guildford they're basically covering all options. Four seamers, three spinners and one batting all-rounder of each variety means that even if one of the bowlers gets injured on the morning of a match they can still go in with their preferred balance.

guildfordbat wrote:I'm puzzled by Tredwell's squad place.

I can't see any way that he'll be playing a Test with surely Swann, Panesar and Patel ahead of him in the pecking order.

Alfie makes the point that Tredwell must be there as a cover in case Swann gets injured. I understand the reasoning but would emphasise that neither Panesar or Patel are guaranteed to play at this stage and so we already have sufficient slow bowling cover.

I would actually question whether we need sixteen players for a two match Test series. Through no fault of his own, Davies is set to be a spare part. Do we need another?

I think it's a strong indication they'll definitely pick 2 spinners so want another attacking option should Swann get injured. I think it sends the signal that unless something strange happens England will certainly pick Patel or Panesar.

Mike Selig wrote:

I think it's a strong indication they'll definitely pick 2 spinners so want another attacking option should Swann get injured. I think it sends the signal that unless something strange happens England will certainly pick Patel or Panesar.

Mike - yes, pretty sure that's right.

Following on from that, it's probably sound enough to take Tredwell in case Swann should get injured. However, I would still flag the general point that we seem to take sixteen players for a Test tour as an automatic formality rather than assessing how many players we actually need. More is not always better and can be a distraction.

i think you have to take the max, anything could happen

Going to the IPL is hardly going to improve Mogs batting now is it. The hit and giggle doesnt mix well with test style batting. Not sure if this was the best move by Mogs.

eirebilly wrote:Going to the IPL is hardly going to improve Mogs batting now is it. The hit and giggle doesnt mix well with test style batting. Not sure if this was the best move by Mogs.

Isn't he under contract to play?

That may be so Stella but it is hardly the environment to play in when trying to prove your qualities as a test batsmen.

eirebilly wrote:That may be so Stella but it is hardly the environment to play in when trying to prove your qualities as a test batsmen.

Very true.

4 day cricket is, IMO.

I would think Morgan would need to be looking at next Winter as a target for a return to the Test side. There are only 2 Tests between now and the summer so it's likley his replacement will get them and the 6 summer Tests at least, to prove his worth. So his IPL stint won't do him much harm and may improve his form in the shorter form of the game, which is more his forte and argueabley England's greater concern.

As for Patel, I read Andrew McGlashan's article on the squad selection and he hinted that he was selected so Flower could keep a better handle on his ftiness. Training at high intensity in the warmer climate should be good for him and I notice he is the only one from the ODi/T20 squads that toured the UAE which will be travelling to Sri Lanka early.

Stella,

Most players have the optyion to pull out in their contracts dont they? Im sure tehres been England palyers whoive chosen not to go when told they could be in line for eselection if they dont in the past?

Im not sure how central contracts operate in that regard as well, could england demand he doesnt go?

To be honest though I guess the focus will now be on Bopara and the Taylor if he doesnt work out again. Morgan will have to prove a lot to get another go ( pending injuries)

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Stella,

Most players have the optyion to pull out in their contracts dont they? Im sure tehres been England palyers whoive chosen not to go when told they could be in line for eselection if they dont in the past?

Im not sure how central contracts operate in that regard as well, could england demand he doesnt go?

To be honest though I guess the focus will now be on Bopara and the Taylor if he doesnt work out again. Morgan will have to prove a lot to get another go ( pending injuries)

tbh, I don't know too much about contracts or central contracts but maybe he feels obliged to play or maybe he likes the money

eirebilly wrote:Going to the IPL is hardly going to improve Mogs batting now is it. The hit and giggle doesnt mix well with test style batting. Not sure if this was the best move by Mogs.

Oh come on! Let's stop using the words "hit and giggle" to describe T20 cricket, if you actually watch a game you'll see there are a lot of skills involved.

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Going to the IPL is hardly going to improve Mogs batting now is it. The hit and giggle doesnt mix well with test style batting. Not sure if this was the best move by Mogs.

Oh come on! Let's stop using the words "hit and giggle" to describe T20 cricket, if you actually watch a game you'll see there are a lot of skills involved.

I agree with that but will it help Morgan in making him a better test batsman?

To be fair giggling isnt easy in a high pressure environemnt.

I think the real point is that the skills invoilved in T20 arent teh same as the ones for test cricket.

But if he isnt in our test team shouldnt we be more interested in him refinding his confidence and form in limited overs? Can we move on from him and just happily say get on with doing what youre good at and we will find someone more suited for tests to play in the test team?

Counter argument...IPL is a great place for him to go and get away from the English press and the England set up for a while and get on with enjoying the game he likes. Im sure the massive sack of ruppees and his swiss bank account will bring a smile back too. Return "home" with a nice tan then batter the p1ss out of the safricans and get England closing in on the number one spot in all 3 formats. Meanwhile Ravi concentrates on coring 3 test centureis in a row again. Its a nice dream right?

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Going to the IPL is hardly going to improve Mogs batting now is it. The hit and giggle doesnt mix well with test style batting. Not sure if this was the best move by Mogs.

Oh come on! Let's stop using the words "hit and giggle" to describe T20 cricket, if you actually watch a game you'll see there are a lot of skills involved.

Am, its a personal opinion of the game? I have watched the game and feel that its pretty much just that so dont tell me to watch it . I do apologise if my view is different to yours.

it was Morgan's innings of 193 last summer that muddied the waters in the Bopara/Morgan selection poser.
Bopara decided not to go to the IPL but then hardly made a run for Essex. But the selectors were gonna go with him until Morgan (who did go to IPL) made his big score.
I reckon they should have stuck to their guns. Morgan, to me, just does not look a Test player and Bopara should now be given his chance. Morgan could come again, as there are plenty of examples of discarded players coming back and doing really well for England (Barrington, Gooch and Amiss to name but three).

eirebilly wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Going to the IPL is hardly going to improve Mogs batting now is it. The hit and giggle doesnt mix well with test style batting. Not sure if this was the best move by Mogs.

Oh come on! Let's stop using the words "hit and giggle" to describe T20 cricket, if you actually watch a game you'll see there are a lot of skills involved.

Am, its a personal opinion of the game? I have watched the game and feel that its pretty much just that so dont tell me to watch it . I do apologise if my view is different to yours.

Ok so Pietersen's knock the other day was "hit and giggle"? Dernbach's slower ball(s)?

I revise my advice: watch a T20 match and pay attention to the special skills involved.

I agree they're not overall the same skills required to play tests (although there are many similarities), but those who denigrate T20 as a "hit and giggle" game are simply prejudiced old-geezers. In my opinion.

I am really so sorry that i have a different opinion to that of yours Mike, really i am. How poor of me to have that. I will now go outside and give myself 20 lashes.

You are totally right, i should watch more T20 and agree with your views

There are skillfull players who play T20, i am not denying that for one second, I just dont find it all that impressive and see it as a hit and giggle. Cant see anything wrong with having that opinion myself.

Can't you see that you are denigrating T20 with your 'hit and giggle' label and people have the right to disagree with that? This is a public forum for opinion is it not? Do you just want everyone to sit and agree with your quite frankly crude and somewhat unjust description of a game that most on here devote a lot of their time to, either by playing, coaching or just simply watching?

liverbnz wrote:Can't you see that you are denigrating T20 with your 'hit and giggle' label and people have the right to disagree with that? This is a public forum for opinion is it not? Do you just want everyone to sit and agree with your quite frankly crude and somewhat unjust description of a game that most on here devote a lot of their time to, either by playing, coaching or just simply watching?

Yes it is a public forum, this is my opinion or is that not what is wanted on this 'public forum' you refer to?

I did not ask for people to agree with me. I made my opinion, got told to watch the game and called a predjudiced old geezer for having that opinion.

Please read what is written before having a go.

I have read it and I think you are being extremely defensive over someone having a different opinion to you. Mike said that in his opinion you were a 'prejudice old-geezer' so is he not entitled to that? Or is their double-standards?

At the end of the day you are effectively dumbing down the game of T20 with your opinion. To me calling something 'hit and giggle' is basically trying to imply there is no skill involved. Quite clearly it is not, ergo your opinion is ridiculous.

How exactly am i being defensive? I had an opinion and was jumped on, i did not ask anyone to accept my opinion nor did i get personal in this. You and Mike have.

Seriously, if anyone is being defensive, its you and Mike for being overly sensitivel about one 'hit and giggle' comment.

I am not going to waste my time on this anymore.

every year t20 becomes more skillfull (well for the full member sides anyway)- it is abit hit and hope- however and especially with all new games(rather than dumbed down formats) it takes time for teams invloved to work out optimum tactics. teams are starting to figure out what is needed to be done to win games. Therefore i believe t20 is at the turning point where skill and tactics are more important than luck!!

obviously my point is proven by the fact that england are the best side by a considerable margin!! lol

Its only just dawned on me how ironic it ios that hes been dropped given that test cricket is the sole reason he quit on Ireland ( and defiantely not the money )

yep i made that point earlier peter- one of the main reasons why i dont accept peoples views that he doesnt care about test crikcet- the lad is quoted as saying that he allways dreamt of playing test cricket for england!!

however the above is giving him the benefit of the doubt- because if he is only in it for the money(as the IPL may suggest) then i suggest he either shows us that he wants to be part of the england set up in all formats asked of him, or i am happy for him to rock on!!

mystiroakey wrote:yep i made that point earlier peter- one of the main reasons why i dont accept peoples views that he doesnt care about test crikcet- the lad is quoted as saying that he allways dreamt of playing test cricket for england!!

however the above is giving him the benefit of the doubt- because if he is only in it for the money(as the IPL may suggest) then i suggest he either shows us that he wants to be part of the england set up in all formats asked of him, or i am happy for him to rock on!!

Who has suggested that he doesn't care?

I know that Mog's has said that his dream was playing test match cricket for England but i also believe that he wanted to play any form of cricket at the higest level, not only test cricket.

I hope for him that he does get back in the side but i really have strong doubts that he will.

he is a good player- however if he wants to get back in the test side he needs to play the county stuff!

Surprised so many people see Patel as a shoe in considering Flower and co's sticking with 6 first choice batsmen and keeper for so long I'd have thought Bopara would be first choice to replace Morgan!

Personally I would've wanted James Taylor in the 6 role but without him or Morgan in the squad I'd go with Bopara.