Save regions by degrading Welsh Prem?

I was thinking the WRU would make about the same as the IRFU, and both have about same outgoings in terms in stadium repayments etc etc.

The IRFU direct more of their resources into the provinces than the WRU the Regions.
The WRU direct more resources into the Welsh prem than the IRFU the Irish League.

Would people be happy if the WRU reduced funding to the Welsh Prem, and put the resources into the Regions?

If the WRU gave the same proportion of its resources to the regions, as the IRFU does the Provinces, plus adding in the Benfactors at some regions, you would end up with regions as well funded as any team in England, or at least be operating at around the English salary cap.

However for this gain the Welsh prem would lose out and become a poor league. The Irish League only gets crowds now of a couple of hundred, and the teams are a lot poorer (however the game more resembles the amatuer era for fans of this).
It has to be considered also that the Welsh prem doesn't produce the talent it used to, this has been taken over by regional acamadies.

So overall would Welsh fans, be happy if the WRU decided to increase funding to the regions, at the expense of the Welsh Prem?

Kingshu you will be inundated with hate mail from Ponty and Bridgend for even suggesting this.

I wouldn't be.

Time and again this season with injuries and call ups, the Scarlets have had to use players from Llandover and Llanelli. Some of these players have even had to make the step up to HEC games.

If we were to reduce the funding to the prem, it would be less likely that the players would be of a high enough standard to make the required step up.

Also the recent/future restructuring of the Welsh prem is to ensure that it's played at a higher level again so that there is a seemeless transition between Prem clubs and the regions.

It would be a bad idea to cut the funding and put most of it into the regions. You need to develip the game below regional level to make the regions stronger over all imo.

Dreamer - I guess the theory is if the regions had the cash we wouldn't be dipping into the prem sides as we would have just took their best players into the region, and the region would pay them instead of the clubs. But then instead of someone like Pete the meat getting his game time at Llandovery week in week out, he would be just training with the Scarlets full time, and not playing unless injuries require him to step up.

I don't agree that this would work in Wales. I think we need to accept that we are Welsh and have our own way of doing things, and not try to be Irish or Southern Hemisphere in our approach to things.

The whole point of the prem clubs is that they are feeder clubs and that the regions are supposed to dip in and out of them during the season!

In turn this benefits the clubs because when they get a player back from say the Scarlets, they have played to a higher standard/intensity etc, and this experience then helps the club side.

There was clear proof of this working in the final last year between Ponty v Llanelli, where Llanelli had a lot of players who had had game time with the Scarlets, and the difference in the level of play between the sides was clear, with Llanelli on top.

I totally agree with you that the clubs are feeders to the regions, who are then intern feeders to the national side. It has seemed to work pretty well so far as it is. The regions has (in under 10 years of existance) won 4 celtic/rabo/magners league titles and had countless near misses. We have won a few anglo-welsh cups, and only failed to have a side reach the final once. We have had two HC semi finals, and a handfull of quarter finals. We have had one Amlin cup winner, a few semi and quarter finals too. And internataionally we have had two grand slams and a triple crown (if not more), and a fourth place in the RWC too. So all in all it is working pretty well, so why change it?

In complete agreement SS. No need to change it at all really, and I think the tweaking that's being done to the Welsh prem will only improve things further.

Just need to get the marketing and advertising guys working overtime to get bigger crowds into the regions.

It's going to be a hard and very slow process, but it'll be worth it.

I'm not sure how it works exactly but are the Irish Provinces like the provincial unions and therefore responsible for the clubs in their areas? Funding to the regions could be used to develop their feeder clubs. Of course they may just blow it all on Gavin Henson

The Welsh prem is very important for the development of young players from around the regions. Many U20's players ply their trade in the league, they gain good experience and its already been pointed out, the regions do rely on the teams in the prem for players when the top stars are away on international duty or are injured.

Downgrading the Welsh prem, will not sort out the main problem which is the regions and their lack of support

The key difference between Ireland and Wales seems to be the Welsh depend on their Premership to develop young players and to act as reserves. The Irish on the other hand use their academies to develop young players, who are then assigned to AIB clubs. They hardly ever use club players to address shortfalls usually relying on the youngsters if short.

The only instances I am aware of in the last couple of years are at prop - Cronin (Ulster) and Shawe (Leinster). They may be others but not many. In Cronin's case he ended up staying on Ulster's books.

geoff998rugby wrote:The key difference between Ireland and Wales seems to be the Welsh depend on their Premership to develop young players and to act as reserves. The Irish on the other hand use their academies to develop young players, who are then assigned to AIB clubs. They hardly ever use club players to address shortfalls usually relying on the youngsters if short.

The only instances I am aware of in the last couple of years are at prop - Cronin (Ulster) and Shawe (Leinster). They may be others but not many. In Cronin's case he ended up staying on Ulster's books.

The accademy players do play for prem sides, and it is generally those players that get called up to the regions as cover for the main regional players. We also use the prem sides, or at least have in the past, to get some game time for players when they were starting to return from injury etc.

So why are Provinces in Ireland more financial stable and more successful.
It is not, primarily, crowds which are a small part of income. It is not talent which is, I suggest, fairly even in terms of what is coming through.

Is it because Wales are trying to support a professional structure below the regional level, as well as a fully functioning regional structure, and there simply isn't the money to go round. Ireland on the other hand only significantly support one of those levels - the regional/provincial level; and they do not have issues with developing young talent so why should Wales if they went the same route.

Bottom line are Wales trying to have their cake and eat it ?

geoff998rugby wrote:So why are Provinces in Ireland more financial stable and more successful.
It is not, primarily, crowds which are a small part of income. It is not talent which is, I suggest, fairly even in terms of what is coming through.

Is it because Wales are trying to support a professional structure below the regional level, as well as a fully functioning regional structure, and there simply isn't the money to go round. Ireland on the other hand only significantly support one of those levels - the regional/provincial level; and they do not have issues with developing young talent so why should Wales if they went the same route.

Bottom line are Wales trying to have their cake and eat it ?

I think that sums up the article nicley Geoff cheers.

I don't think the Welsh need the Prem any more than Ireland does the Irish League to develop players, sure they are handy to give players games coming back for injury etc, Irish league is used for this as well, but does it have to be at such a high standard? Would Irish League standard not be better, and the money put into the regions?

Thanks for the interest boys, but anything as fundamental a change as you propose HAS to go through a full meeting of all the clubs, who also get a share of the WRU monies through ticket sales, and as the saying goes Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. It would never be passed.

Not wanting to sound disrespectful at all here, but I am not the best at getting my words across.

The Welsh have only been regional for a few season, yet they have seen a fair amount of success and the results on a domestic, european, and international stage have definately improved since regionalism. The money side of things is an issue at the moment. However the WRU are in the process of restructuring the Welsh premiership, to create a more robust system to feed into the regions and to build up support. As with everything in this world nothing happens overnight. Some people are a bit more set in their ways than others, and this does turn into less support for the regions than expected. However as the older generation pass on, and a younger generation come through watching rugby (especially those who can't remember pre-regionalism) the gates have started to improve. We are Welsh, and we have the right to do things our way, and not try to be Irish and do things your way. Yes your provinces and your league work for you.

So I have a question for you. Why does the IRFU throw money into the provinces when they don't seem to get too much of a return on the national stage? Wouldn't they be better off with an All Ireland League where the clubs are funded by rich folk? After all it works for the French and the English and they are (or atleast have been) far more successful than Ireland internationally.

Domestic leagues are very important. The Aussies and Argies have been crying out for one for ages. The ITM cup is very important for NZ. Most of the young players spend a couple years honing their skills before making the step up to Super rugby, of course there are exceptions.
Wikipedia says the Welsh Prem will be 12 teams instead of 14 next season. So thats less funding already.

It's all horses for courses, Irish model weak League strong Provinces works for us, NZ strong league, strong Regions works for them (they manage both), In Wales they are trying to do strong League Strong regions, but with teh regions crying out for more funding, if the WRU are to do this this, something has to give. IMO its the Welsh Prem.

I know you can point to the success the status quo have given already and say why change, but thats ignoing the regions pleas for extra funding. Just think If Osreys recieved the same level of funding from the WRU as an Irish team, + Cuddy's (sp) input they would be able to have a bigger salary cap than the English one, the losers are Neath, Swansea and Bridgend, the winners would be Ospreys and then possibly the national team (the main aim after all)!

Kingshu wrote: Cuddy's (sp)

Its a 'n' instead of the first 'd', and a 't' instead of the next 'd'

Kingshu - what I meant was that we are still really in an embryonic state, there is fine tuning to be done, and the WRU are in the process of doing it. The issues with fans are slowly resolving themselves. We need to be given time to sort things out to a system that suits us.

Scarlet Spiderman re your post at 2.48 today, a couple of months ago, I had an argument with a neighbour who played for our local club about 20 years ago, and asked why he had never been to see the Ospreys (our region), and he said what has Regional Rugby done. I gave the same instances as you said Grand Slams, WC and basically improved performances as against Pre Regional Era, I'd offered in the past to run him down to watch matches, he wasn't interested in the travel or the argument.

Wayne - that is the thing it is the older genreation are set in their ways more than the nation not buying into the regions as such. I am from the Milford in Pembs, and pre-regionalism I think you would be lucky to see more than one or two blokes in pubs wearing club shirts in a month. Now you can expect to see a good handful of Scarlets and Ospreys shirt and possibly the odd Blues or Dragons shirt when you go to the pub. And the amount of kids you see running around in their regional colours now. The younger generation is buying into regionalism, well provided that the old guard don't kill it off before we can enjoy it.

SS watch yourself I'm of that generation I don't know which topic I read it on but the suggestion about buying tickets for an International you'd get to see a few Regional Games. Even better would be to give a much larger allocation of International match tickets to the Regions who could initially sell them to ST holders that IMO would transform Regional attendances at a stroke. The only problem would be that the smaller clubs would have to vote for it and as I said in an earlier post, that would NEVER happen, beacause of WRU AGM procedures.

Wayne - I think they've already started to do that. I know the Scarlets seem to have had more international tickets this year to give to season ticket holders anyways. Don't think it's well advertised though.

That for me is one of the main problems. All the regions have great offers and schemes for fans, but no one seems to know about them! Marketing and advertising needs to be improved big time.

How much are the WRU funding the Welsh prem? I know that they fund all levels of welsh rugby right down to grassroots, but not sure how much to each level.

rugbydreamer wrote:The whole point of the prem clubs is that they are feeder clubs and that the regions are supposed to dip in and out of them during the season!

In turn this benefits the clubs because when they get a player back from say the Scarlets, they have played to a higher standard/intensity etc, and this experience then helps the club side.

There was clear proof of this working in the final last year between Ponty v Llanelli, where Llanelli had a lot of players who had had game time with the Scarlets, and the difference in the level of play between the sides was clear, with Llanelli on top.

I just looked at the WRU accounts for 2010, £14.2M goes to the regions and £1.2M goes to the semi-pro teams and £0.3M goes to Roger Lewis! It may be better to cut Swansea, Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport as they are already funded as super clubs to the tune of £14.2M resulting in 4 less semi pro clubs saving £0.4M to allocate to the regions or better still the semi-pro league. Cutting the semi pro league does little in the scheme of so called regional rugby therefore instead of the regions getting £3.5M each they get £3.8M meaning nothing for club rugby. If the plan is the "regions" pay £100K to each of 3 clubs in their allotted area (should be geographically separated from the region playgrounds) it may lock in the clubs to the regions but I don't think this will go down well with the clubs!

geoff998rugby wrote:
The only instances I am aware of in the last couple of years are at prop - Cronin (Ulster) and Shawe (Leinster). They may be others but not many. In Cronin's case he ended up staying on Ulster's books.

Ulster and Leinster players came from schools (in pre academy days) predominantly. Munster have had many more come from clubs. (Hayes, Quinnie etc.)

Even now, besides Shawe (Who came to Leinster from an Ulster club) Leinster signed Leo Auva'a (Belvedere) and Aaron Dundon (Clontarf) on full contracts.

Munster have James Coughlan and probably several more (I'm not an expert on Munster ail players) Of course lots of academy players play for ail clubs, and some fringe players, and lots of ex pros. Also many pros recovering from injury.

If the IRFU had decided to contest the Heineken cup with ail clubs. (they nearly did) like the Welsh did. We would be in some state now. We were lucky to have the Provinces as A/ geographical regions going back millennia, and B/ representative sides going back a over century, who played a couple of games a season.
The happy accident of central contracts helped too.

We were blessed that our club game was not as strong as the Welsh club game at the dawn of the pro game. Also Rugby was 4th choice team ball game behind soccer (Gaelic)football and hurling.

Sorry for the rambling. It's the drink.

Looking at the WRU accounts for 2010, they employed 53 staff no doubt many are low paid clerical staff the average salary comes to a staggering £128K! excluding pensions and NI, removing Roger Lewis salary of £300K this still works out at £124K/staff member, nice job if you can get it, i.e., the salary for the WRU staff is the same as the total allocated to two regions to put in to prespective!!!!

glamorganalun wrote:Looking at the WRU accounts for 2010, they employed 53 staff no doubt many are low paid clerical staff the average salary comes to a staggering £128K! excluding pensions and NI, removing Roger Lewis salary of £300K this still works out at £124K/staff member, nice job if you can get it, i.e., the salary for the WRU staff is the same as the total allocated to two regions to put in to prespective!!!!

That can't be right surely. Bonkers if it is though.

Well seeing as the WRU rugby development officers are only on £18-23,000 (there's a job going currently), and there are quite a lot of these development workers (at least 1 in each local authority I think), plus the high number of staff in such a large organisation (think of all the admin staff, accountants, legal team, development officers, senior coaches, women's team coaches, U20s coaches, deaf squad coaches, etc. etc.) I'd say that 53 is not a correct total number of staff!

My understanding is that Gats is on 300K as well.

Im also guessing Lydon, Edwards & Jenkins are on good contracts as well.

To be honest to get the best you will end up paying accordingly. I dont begrudge the Salaries the Coaching staff or the senior administrators are getting. They are worth it and are currently running a successful and flourishing business.

Keep in mind previous WRU administration was totally corrupt and at least R. Lewis already stamped his mark on the way the board and decisions are made. This is evident by the fact that they removed the Regions from the Board in the last 24 months which was a good move even if the Regions disliked this. At the end of the day the top management on decision needed to be impartial and have no hidden agendas. They can then make the best decision based on the overal state of the game in wales instead of just a select few.

In any case - long term the WRU will end up settling all the outstanding debt and probably be one of the richer unions in World Rugby. Yes we may need to weather out losing some top players in the meantime but at least our future is not build on a house of cards. There clearly is a plan in place.

I'm also glad the regions have started to cut their cloth according to income as well and follow the WRU lead. I appreciate they may suffer in terms of throphies over the short term but given the right focus on youth development during this period could pay major dividends.

At the end of the day there are areas we need to develop in order to compete with New Zealand, Australia, South Africa & yes even England.

U20 - The above 4 clearly have a better developed age grade level than us. Most of it is down to preparation, fitness & high level playing exposure.

There is no reason in terms of skill that we should be behind these Nations. I truely believe that. That said until the Regions start exposing more of our U20's to regular Rabbo rugby we will stay behind them. The other thing is conditioning and fitness which to be honest should be a primary goal once a youngster is given a development contract. I still see a massive difference between say England and Wales in this area.


The 7's - The good news is at least they are proffessionals now and selected. To be honest its the ideal place to develop backs and forwards to play and its no suprise so many top tier Nations are leading in this sport as well. We need to start performing and allocating some resources to success here.

I made a mistake with the number of employees the WRU has in my post above there are 53 managers/administrators plus 120 others.. The salary for the 53 heads + 120 stadium, develop officers and others excluding NI and pension contribution is still £6.8M which is a more realistic £39.3K/employee (still high for a company of 173 employees).

If we assume 30% of the staff are high paid specialist and managers out of the 53 it is likely 35 staff are admin staff on an average salary of £25K/year + 120 staff with a similar average pay this totals £3.9M leaving £2.9M to share between 18 staff i.e. £161K average!

Yes I made a mistake with the staff numbers above but the fact is the WRU wages amount to more than the total outlay to two regions i.e., £7.8M including NI and pensions. if anybody needs to cut back it is the union to give more to the regions or other rugby related needs like a 5th region up North.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne - that is the thing it is the older genreation are set in their ways more than the nation not buying into the regions as such. I am from the Milford in Pembs, and pre-regionalism I think you would be lucky to see more than one or two blokes in pubs wearing club shirts in a month. Now you can expect to see a good handful of Scarlets and Ospreys shirt and possibly the odd Blues or Dragons shirt when you go to the pub. And the amount of kids you see running around in their regional colours now. The younger generation is buying into regionalism, well provided that the old guard don't kill it off before we can enjoy it.

SS - couldn't agree with you more. It is the younger generation that the regions have to encourage. I live in the Pontypridd area and coach an u12's side which my son plays in. He also attends the local high school. Not once has a Blue's representative visited the club or school. This is the age you have to capture them. The Blues must have in excess of 30 professional players on their books plus the same amount of Academy players - surely they have to be more pro-active in the region. At the moment it is playing right into the hands of the "Anti Blues" brigade in Pontypridd.

Cardiff Blues are not aware yet that people actually exist outside of Cardiff nevermind the fact that there are people who watch and play rugby

Pyleboy65 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne - that is the thing it is the older genreation are set in their ways more than the nation not buying into the regions as such. I am from the Milford in Pembs, and pre-regionalism I think you would be lucky to see more than one or two blokes in pubs wearing club shirts in a month. Now you can expect to see a good handful of Scarlets and Ospreys shirt and possibly the odd Blues or Dragons shirt when you go to the pub. And the amount of kids you see running around in their regional colours now. The younger generation is buying into regionalism, well provided that the old guard don't kill it off before we can enjoy it.

SS - couldn't agree with you more. It is the younger generation that the regions have to encourage. I live in the Pontypridd area and coach an u12's side which my son plays in. He also attends the local high school. Not once has a Blue's representative visited the club or school. This is the age you have to capture them. The Blues must have in excess of 30 professional players on their books plus the same amount of Academy players - surely they have to be more pro-active in the region. At the moment it is playing right into the hands of the "Anti Blues" brigade in Pontypridd.

Why don't you take the lead and send an email to richard.holland@cardiffblues.com or tina.tew@cardiffblues.com, inviting Cardiff Blues players along to one of your U12 coaching sessions?
Try it and see what they say.

Steffan wrote:Cardiff Blues are not aware yet that people actually exist outside of Cardiff nevermind the fact that there are people who watch and play rugby

Dai Young is from Aberdare isn't he?

The 12 Welsh Premiership teams get funding of £1.2m a season, or £100k each. The Welsh Premiership was reduced to 8 teams, so with 4 less teams, each team will now get £150k each instead of £100k.

The Ospreys and Scarlets have asked the WRU if Carmarthen Quins and Bridgend can also be included in the new 8 team league and this was accepted provided the regions pick up the £150k per season cost of running the team.

Personally I think the regions need to be scrapped, the WRU needs to open 3 new teams, of only Welsh qualified centrally contracted players, East Wales (Millenium stadium), West Wales (Parc Y Scarlets) and North Wales (Park Erias, Colwyn Bay).

Any spare money should be spent in facilities and training equitment and grass roots rugby, Wales doesn't need a semi pro or pro Welsh premiership. What use are average players earning a living as professionals?

Let them be amateur and let the French or English clubs pay them if they want to sign them.

The Irish can't run a country for shít but in rugby terms they are far smarter. they have 4 pro teams and 3 academies, Ulster Ravens, Munster A and Leinster A. The Welsh are idiotic at times and are hell bent on always having their cake and eating it, as well as eating everyone elses slice too.

Wales had to turn 9 clubs into 4 teams, they managed 5, now 4. Now they need to take the next step.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Pyleboy65 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne - that is the thing it is the older genreation are set in their ways more than the nation not buying into the regions as such. I am from the Milford in Pembs, and pre-regionalism I think you would be lucky to see more than one or two blokes in pubs wearing club shirts in a month. Now you can expect to see a good handful of Scarlets and Ospreys shirt and possibly the odd Blues or Dragons shirt when you go to the pub. And the amount of kids you see running around in their regional colours now. The younger generation is buying into regionalism, well provided that the old guard don't kill it off before we can enjoy it.

SS - couldn't agree with you more. It is the younger generation that the regions have to encourage. I live in the Pontypridd area and coach an u12's side which my son plays in. He also attends the local high school. Not once has a Blue's representative visited the club or school. This is the age you have to capture them. The Blues must have in excess of 30 professional players on their books plus the same amount of Academy players - surely they have to be more pro-active in the region. At the moment it is playing right into the hands of the "Anti Blues" brigade in Pontypridd.

Why don't you take the lead and send an email to richard.holland@cardiffblues.com or tina.tew@cardiffblues.com, inviting Cardiff Blues players along to one of your U12 coaching sessions?
Try it and see what they say.

My son also plays rugby for a club in the Pontypridd area. Blues players can regularly be seen visiting and have been more than willing to attend presentations. They have also visited my children's school and have been into my wife's school.
If you email or ring, they are more than helpful and will arrange whatever they can for you.

AlynDavies wrote:The 12 Welsh Premiership teams get funding of £1.2m a season, or £100k each. The Welsh Premiership was reduced to 8 teams, so with 4 less teams, each team will now get £150k each instead of £100k.

There are 14 WP teams at present not 12.

PackaPunch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Pyleboy65 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne - that is the thing it is the older genreation are set in their ways more than the nation not buying into the regions as such. I am from the Milford in Pembs, and pre-regionalism I think you would be lucky to see more than one or two blokes in pubs wearing club shirts in a month. Now you can expect to see a good handful of Scarlets and Ospreys shirt and possibly the odd Blues or Dragons shirt when you go to the pub. And the amount of kids you see running around in their regional colours now. The younger generation is buying into regionalism, well provided that the old guard don't kill it off before we can enjoy it.

SS - couldn't agree with you more. It is the younger generation that the regions have to encourage. I live in the Pontypridd area and coach an u12's side which my son plays in. He also attends the local high school. Not once has a Blue's representative visited the club or school. This is the age you have to capture them. The Blues must have in excess of 30 professional players on their books plus the same amount of Academy players - surely they have to be more pro-active in the region. At the moment it is playing right into the hands of the "Anti Blues" brigade in Pontypridd.

Why don't you take the lead and send an email to richard.holland@cardiffblues.com or tina.tew@cardiffblues.com, inviting Cardiff Blues players along to one of your U12 coaching sessions?
Try it and see what they say.

My son also plays rugby for a club in the Pontypridd area. Blues players can regularly be seen visiting and have been more than willing to attend presentations. They have also visited my children's school and have been into my wife's school.
If you email or ring, they are more than helpful and will arrange whatever they can for you.

There you go pyleboy. Up to you now. Let us know how what their response is.

Cardiff Dave wrote:There are 14 WP teams at present not 12.

Quite right sorry, so the clubs get 85,714 each then and not 100,000.

Thanks for the emails and advice - I will certainly do that and let you all know how we get on.

Pyleboy65 wrote:Thanks for the emails and advice - I will certainly do that and let you all know how we get on.

Good man.
But don't settle for fringe Cardiff Blues players turning up. Be a bit cheeky and tell them that the kids asked for Warburton, Roberts or Halfpenny.

Everyone has an opinion on the Regional game.

West Wales should not be supporting 2 franchises in the Ospreys and Scarlets. The population is not there to do it. Plus the sheer area per person makes it logistically difficult for people to get to matches in the first place.

The Valleys are probably the heartland in terms of the game being played. But do they deserve a Region? No. Because most of your target group of fans actually play the game on a saturday for various local sides. So basically the support base just isnt there.

Cardiff as the capital was always going to host a regional side. But once they made that decision having a second based in Newport was lunacy.
I do think that Gwent should have had a region given the clear strength of rugby union but they should have moved match between Monmouth or around the area. To be fair that would have been a great development strategy for fan base.

North Wales with a third of the Welsh population and not a great deal of people playing the game or local sides up there would have been ideal. Why? Because if they are not playing they are free to watch the sport.

The point is the National Team gets support from a lot of people who just treat those matches as a "big day out". Its unrealistic to assume you will get these through the turnstyles week in week out.

This is why I would have loved to see Regional sides play 3 Homes matches per location around their areas. You could have sold them in batches of 3 and locals would probably look at those as "one off night outs".

I know this wouldnt be ideal for the hardened fans who turn up each week but to be fair the real supporters probably would make an effort to see their team anyway.

Just my view though.

Mushroom - I can see you point, but I would argue with you (and most people on here it seems) on your definition of West Wales. Being from the west of Pembrokeshire I do resent people classing Swansea as West Wales. Surely the west is Pembrokeshire, Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire (possible Gwynedd).

Welshmushroom wrote:

The Valleys are probably the heartland in terms of the game being played. But do they deserve a Region? No. Because most of your target group of fans actually play the game on a saturday for various local sides. So basically the support base just isnt there.

The games would all probably ko at 2-30pm which is the same throughout the country, so I don't understand your point.

Welshmushroom wrote:
This is why I would have loved to see Regional sides play 3 Homes matches per location around their areas. You could have sold them in batches of 3 and locals would probably look at those as "one off night outs".

Have you considered the impact on matchday income if a team played at different grounds?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:
This is why I would have loved to see Regional sides play 3 Homes matches per location around their areas. You could have sold them in batches of 3 and locals would probably look at those as "one off night outs".

Have you considered the impact on matchday income if a team played at different grounds?

True but on the flip side it cant be worse than paying for stadiums we cant fill. The lease holds by both the Blues and Ospreys are far to high. Also given the investment in PYS im sure thats not currently covering the investment into it either. Dragons are the only ones rebuilding their ground as they have the money and its a long term project by the looks of things.

Dont get me wrong the playing facilities at these stadiums is first class but if you cant afford it then it makes little sense.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:
This is why I would have loved to see Regional sides play 3 Homes matches per location around their areas. You could have sold them in batches of 3 and locals would probably look at those as "one off night outs".

Have you considered the impact on matchday income if a team played at different grounds?

True but on the flip side it cant be worse than paying for stadiums we cant fill. The lease holds by both the Blues and Ospreys are far to high. Also given the investment in PYS im sure thats not currently covering the investment into it either. Dragons are the only ones rebuilding their ground as they have the money and its a long term project by the looks of things.

Dont get me wrong the playing facilities at these stadiums is first class but if you cant afford it then it makes little sense.

I know what Cardiff Blues pay for both CCS and CAP, but at present they are stuck with a mad deal in Leckwith meaning they have to pay whether they play at CCS or not.
That aside, if they could get out of the deal they would generate a lot more cash for themselves at CAP than they would at other club's grounds.
Can't comment on the other 3, but as you've mentioned it what do the O's pay to play at the Liberty?