The Greatest 6 Nation’s Rivalry of Them All - Eng v Fra....

by HERSH Thu 1 Mar - 16:24

First topic message reminder :

Not long to wait for the greatest fixture in the 6 nations, No game stirs the emotions as much as this bad boy.

How do people see it going this term?

I fancy England to pull this one off, I believe France will crumble under the pressure that England will put on them, and as we all know the Paris crowd soon turn on their own team if they haven’t racked up a cricket score by half time.

It will be close it won’t be pretty to watch but England will pull through.

That will only leave Ireland once again standing in England’s way, I know the title is beyond us this time but I fancy we could finish joint top with Wales if France pull off a win in the MS.
Yahoo

by overlordofthewest Sat 3 Mar - 0:17

In response to the poll - France by 7+ easily, Wales won by 7 away from home so France will beat England by 10 - 15 points.

In response the the title - it continues to amuse me when English posters here claim France as their biggest rivals, or Eng Fra as the biggest rivalry when even the author goes off topic to put Wales down as do many other posters. Just because THE match England want to win is against Wales but posters here don't want to admit it because Wales have simply outgrown England as have many other teams. Wales now see France and Ireland as bigger rivals when once it was England.

Not so long ago it was claimed when England lost it was because everyone upped their game to play England as everyone wanted to beat them. Now it's clear no one gives a toss anymore and the excuse is gone.
France don't view you as their biggest rival. Youre behind Wales and Ireland this year and probably Scotland too next year.

by miteyironpaw Sat 3 Mar - 0:18

damngoodOvalball wrote:I wouldn't bother secretfly, especially not using the RWC as an example.

The general take on the RWC in wales seems to be that after a brilliant almost victory over Aus in the 3rd place play off, wales advanced to the final where they beat both France and New Zealand (as they always almost do) before beginning their long journey down the beanstalk and back to wales.

That is the funniest thing I've ever read on 606.

Laugh

by miteyironpaw Sat 3 Mar - 0:23

overlordofthewest wrote:In response to the poll - France by 7+ easily, Wales won by 7 away from home so France will beat England by 10 - 15 points.

In response the the title - it continues to amuse me when English posters here claim France as their biggest rivals, or Eng Fra as the biggest rivalry when even the author goes off topic to put Wales down as do many other posters. Just because THE match England want to win is against Wales but posters here don't want to admit it because Wales have simply outgrown England as have many other teams. Wales now see France and Ireland as bigger rivals when once it was England.

Not so long ago it was claimed when England lost it was because everyone upped their game to play England as everyone wanted to beat them. Now it's clear no one gives a toss anymore and the excuse is gone.
France don't view you as their biggest rival. Youre behind Wales and Ireland this year and probably Scotland too next year.

The reality is actually that England was always the Big Game for Wales, but generally a bit of a joke for England since the dawn of professionalism. The noises about "respect" would be made, but in reality the challenge wasn't really taken seriously.

What you are failing to grasp here, as are a lot of Welsh posters (sorry to burst the balloon, but it's getting tiresome), is that what you are interpreting as "anti-Welsh" or sniping, or whatever, is English posters making ironic posts in the style of the kind of nonsense that Welsh posters have been spouting for years and years and years every time England spanked them. It's been hilarious to note that when you hear it, you instantly recognise it for what it is, but still can't recognise that this is the shoite we had to endure. England could never just win and be better - Wales "almost won" or took a "moral victory" or "on their day would have won" or "were the better team, but scored fewer points".

Yes, Wales are quite a good side at the moment, and yes you beat us. Just enjoy it. As England fans we know where our team is at and we're quite happy with the performance and accepting of the result. But this continually courting of praise is really revealing of just how important this was to Wales. But look at it objectively, you know in your hearts that a scratch England side came very close to toppling the greatest Welsh side of the pro era, and that speaks volumes about where the teams are historically and presently.

by overlordofthewest Sat 3 Mar - 0:44

I keep hearing about this ' scratch England side'. It's only been mentioned since they lost. Before that it was ' the new look England'.

Besides, I remember a scratch Wales side in 2008, basically the Ospreys. They won the GS. They weren't crowing about being a scratch side and celebrating defeat.

England were the team team to beat for Wales a number of years ago. 10 years ago they were the best team in the world and of course everyone wanted to beat them.
Now though there are bigger and better teams to beat. England aren't even in Wales top 5 of teams they fear. Thats just a fact, not anti English.

Those years when Wales got a spanking and claimed moral victories were when we were playing badly. WE dont have millions of players or money coming out of our ears so it's doubly hard for us to make achievements. However, we are achieving more than most in the NH (France doing a little better) with limited resources.

by EnglishReign Sat 3 Mar - 9:25

Well Wales won by 7 in 08 and it didn't stop England winning in Paris but otherwise, good logic Rolling Eyes

by miteyironpaw Sat 3 Mar - 9:29

overlordofthewest wrote:I keep hearing about this ' scratch England side'. It's only been mentioned since they lost. Before that it was ' the new look England'.

Besides, I remember a scratch Wales side in 2008, basically the Ospreys. They won the GS. They weren't crowing about being a scratch side and celebrating defeat.

England were the team team to beat for Wales a number of years ago. 10 years ago they were the best team in the world and of course everyone wanted to beat them.
Now though there are bigger and better teams to beat. England aren't even in Wales top 5 of teams they fear. Thats just a fact, not anti English.

Those years when Wales got a spanking and claimed moral victories were when we were playing badly. WE dont have millions of players or money coming out of our ears so it's doubly hard for us to make achievements. However, we are achieving more than most in the NH (France doing a little better) with limited resources.

Please! "limited resources", Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, NZ are all smaller countries with fewer resources and they don't perpetually use it as an excuse to lose.

by thebluesmancometh Sat 3 Mar - 9:48

Nice article HERSH.

You can kind of see where he's going, France were the stiff opposition until post 2003, then it was claimed evryone 'upped' their game, but in recent years Wales and Ireland have surpassed England and now they have to 'raise' their game to match teams.

As a nuetral the France England game is a highlight of the tourny for me, Ireland in general are too strong for England, and well Wales have seamed to tip the tables, which as a welshman is a bit dissapointing, beating England regularly takes the shine off a little bit.

And with no offence to England I have to deduce that France are probably the reason I enjoy the game, there are 3 games every year that are a snoozefese, England Scotland, England Italy and Scotland Italy.

by TycroesOsprey Sat 3 Mar - 9:55

Whilst I have gone for a big French win which I expect given the French dominance in every position on the pitch, England have the bloody mindedness to go to Paris and grind out a win if only by boring the french to death. Ive seen them do it before when nobody has given them a hope. Thank god they havent got a character like Moore on this team to get them fired.

by overlordofthewest Sat 3 Mar - 11:30

miteyironpaw wrote:
overlordofthewest wrote:I keep hearing about this ' scratch England side'. It's only been mentioned since they lost. Before that it was ' the new look England'.

Besides, I remember a scratch Wales side in 2008, basically the Ospreys. They won the GS. They weren't crowing about being a scratch side and celebrating defeat.

England were the team team to beat for Wales a number of years ago. 10 years ago they were the best team in the world and of course everyone wanted to beat them.
Now though there are bigger and better teams to beat. England aren't even in Wales top 5 of teams they fear. Thats just a fact, not anti English.

Those years when Wales got a spanking and claimed moral victories were when we were playing badly. WE dont have millions of players or money coming out of our ears so it's doubly hard for us to make achievements. However, we are achieving more than most in the NH (France doing a little better) with limited resources.

Please! "limited resources", Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, NZ are all smaller countries with fewer resources and they don't perpetually use it as an excuse to lose.

They don't use the ' it was a scratch side' excuse either.
Besides, who's losing? If Wales lose a game this 6n it will probably be due to them being beaten by the beyer side, themselves underperforming or a combination of the two. It won't be because we have a young side, or because the ref was poor or because someone upped their game.

by thebluesmancometh Sat 3 Mar - 11:34

overlord

Lets just wait and see what happens before we use the moral highground of not making excuses, especially after 2 refs and a linesman cheated us out of a WC... censored

by damngoodOvalball Sat 3 Mar - 12:11

overlordofthewest wrote:I keep hearing about this ' scratch England side'. It's only been mentioned since they lost. Before that it was ' the new look England'.

Surely "scratch England side" and "new look England" effectively mean the same thing? Its not an excuse Overlord. Its simply an observation which is fact. The welsh bench had more caps than the entire England side!

by damngoodOvalball Sat 3 Mar - 12:24

[quote="thebluesmancometh"]Nice article HERSH.

As a nuetral the France England game is a highlight of the tourny for me, Ireland in general are too strong for England, and well Wales have seamed to tip the tables, which as a welshman is a bit dissapointing, beating England regularly takes the shine off a little bit. quote]

So Wales winning 5 out of the last 15 England-Wales games counts as "beating England regularly" does it? Even when you consider the last 5 games its 3-2 in Englands favour. 2 out of 5 is hardly regular.

rugbydata.com would make for some quite sobering reading for some welsh. Get a grip chaps, you narrowly won the most recent game against a scratch/new look England (thats no excuse - you can only play the team in front of you). You are 3 from 3, and looking good. Why dont you just enjoy it rather than getting ahead of yourselves? You all know how painful the fall is for the Welsh when the team has one of its losing runs. This time around you could all save a fortune on humble pie in the future by just calming down a bit and being a tad more realistic

by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 3 Mar - 13:34

The 6Ns as a competition is unique but for me this is the big one!
I guess England & France both have strong leagues with a number of quality clubs from their respective countries.
They are big unions that should always have a national team that should be there or thereabouts.

I must say though whenever I have been to France - Perpignan. Biarritz, montferrand I have had a magnificent time & have been welcomed by the locals.

by Guest Sat 3 Mar - 13:39

Yep, France v England is always the big one for me each 6 Nations. Can't wait!

It's got nothing to do with no respecting other sides, but this is one I look forward to the most and means the most. Each year the French are my second team if England don't win it.

by mystiroakey Sat 3 Mar - 13:40

SecretFly wrote:
dogtooth wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
dogtooth wrote:if the worst performance by wales in a year is enough to beat england at twik'num by 7, then france will manage more than 7, i think.

If the English are good enough to almost get a draw out of the best team in Europe, then France might be easy pickings.

So many ways of looking at the one matematical problem

7 points behind isnt nearly a draw. its a loss by a full score. not really a nearly draw

A TMO eyesight issue made it a 7 pointer, dogtooth. Wales didn't play badly...England stopped them playing for large sections. No, not good enough to keep it up or to turn that into a sizeable win.

Some Welshman had the stats on another thread. Virtually in all departments, Wales were beating the English.... it should have been a landslide of sorts but it wasn't one because England negated the importance of most of the superior stats...by containing the only stat that means anything - the scoring. Failed in the end. But if Wales considers themselves the best side in Europe, that was a nice display by a new England coach and his team.

sorry fly but that isnt close to the truth!

it was 48 52 possesion and territory(thats almost 50/50) and england completed 50 more passes as well!- so no stats did not dictate a landslide at all- i agree with the rest mind

by thebluesmancometh Sat 3 Mar - 13:59

2 in 5 sounds bad when you manipulate it like that, I prefer to look at it as we've beaten you 6 times in 7 years Doh

Thats pretty regular!!

by SecretFly Sat 3 Mar - 14:07

mystiroakey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Some Welshman had the stats on another thread. Virtually in all departments, Wales were beating the English.... it should have been a landslide of sorts but it wasn't one because England negated the importance of most of the superior stats...by containing the only stat that means anything - the scoring. Failed in the end. But if Wales considers themselves the best side in Europe, that was a nice display by a new England coach and his team.

sorry fly but that isnt close to the truth!

Well now, don't shoot the messenger, Oakey. They weren't my stats I was refering to but ones posted by a proud Welshman. The point I was making was that a Welsh man said Wales played badly (thereby the implication being that they didn't show up and almost gifted England a win) I said that according to a different Welshman, the Welsh were dominant in every department. I was saying that you can't have it both ways. Wales were either playing badly or playing a game that dominated the stats.

by SecretFly Sat 3 Mar - 14:10

Of course the French v England game is The Big One for the....English. For the rest of us it will be a pleasant diversion and hopefully a good game.

by slartibartfast Sat 3 Mar - 14:41

SecretFly wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Some Welshman had the stats on another thread. Virtually in all departments, Wales were beating the English.... it should have been a landslide of sorts but it wasn't one because England negated the importance of most of the superior stats...by containing the only stat that means anything - the scoring. Failed in the end. But if Wales considers themselves the best side in Europe, that was a nice display by a new England coach and his team.

sorry fly but that isnt close to the truth!

Well now, don't shoot the messenger, Oakey. They weren't my stats I was refering to but ones posted by a proud Welshman. The point I was making was that a Welsh man said Wales played badly (thereby the implication being that they didn't show up and almost gifted England a win) I said that according to a different Welshman, the Welsh were dominant in every department. I was saying that you can't have it both ways. Wales were either playing badly or playing a game that dominated the stats.

by Guest Sat 3 Mar - 14:46

It's amazing how far someone will go to denigrate their own side's performance if it means that they can claim the opposition played even worse.

Sport is crazy in that way. You wouldn't start with those claims in the bedroom (though if you use stats there you're going about it all wrong) Wink

by thebluesmancometh Sat 3 Mar - 14:47

secret

I think you're wrong there mate, Wales were poor by their standards but good enough to edge the stats. Infact I'd say that's the only positive from the game (aside from the scoreline).

But thats for another thread!

by SecretFly Sat 3 Mar - 14:57

thebluesmancometh wrote:secret

I think you're wrong there mate, Wales were poor by their standards but good enough to edge the stats. Infact I'd say that's the only positive from the game (aside from the scoreline).

But thats for another thread!

Bluesman...you won. Will you not even lay aside the usual tricks people play when they're not particularly happy with the eventual result even if it was a win - and simply admit England played a good game, rattled Welsh confidence during the game, made them work hard for the win, and give Wales a real 'test' (for that is what these games between nations are called and should reflect).

If you play badly, if any team plays below their best...you can be pretty sure the opposition had something to do with it.

Wales won the game against Ireland with a controversal penalty and yellow card. Now, I said and still say the card and penalty was probably the little luck they needed to bring about a justified result, because apart from the close run result, Wales outplayed us in just about every department. They deserved the win.

There is a time to give up the national pride and admit when you've been given a game by the enemy and admit too when they've well and truly thumped you. Wales were given a game by England, acknowledging the fact is not a crime against patriotism.

by mystiroakey Sat 3 Mar - 15:04

slartibartfast wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Some Welshman had the stats on another thread. Virtually in all departments, Wales were beating the English.... it should have been a landslide of sorts but it wasn't one because England negated the importance of most of the superior stats...by containing the only stat that means anything - the scoring. Failed in the end. But if Wales considers themselves the best side in Europe, that was a nice display by a new England coach and his team.

sorry fly but that isnt close to the truth!

Well now, don't shoot the messenger, Oakey. They weren't my stats I was refering to but ones posted by a proud Welshman. The point I was making was that a Welsh man said Wales played badly (thereby the implication being that they didn't show up and almost gifted England a win) I said that according to a different Welshman, the Welsh were dominant in every department. I was saying that you can't have it both ways. Wales were either playing badly or playing a game that dominated the stats.

i agree with almost everything you say- however the stats in the game would not suggest any landslide victory- wales only edged most of them. just explaining that

by SecretFly Sat 3 Mar - 15:10

mystiroakey wrote:
i agree with almost everything you say- however the stats in the game would not suggest any landslide victory- wales only edged most of them. just explaining that

I'll take your word for it, oakey. I didn't look them up but I know I saw a good game against two sides that give each other a real test.

by thebluesmancometh Sat 3 Mar - 15:48

Secret

I think you over estimate both Englands performance and Wales abilities!!!

England 'gave us a game' is totally unfair on England and Wales, put into perspective Wales history at twickers a win is a win, and there is no way the players expected anything less than a royal battle!

England stopped Wales playing, but that is very much down to a little of Englands gameplan and a little of Wales, and despite England playing a blinder Wales managed to nick it.

by SecretFly Sat 3 Mar - 16:14

thebluesmancometh wrote:Secret

I think you over estimate both Englands performance and Wales abilities!!!

England 'gave us a game' is totally unfair on England and Wales, put into perspective Wales history at twickers a win is a win, and there is no way the players expected anything less than a royal battle!

England stopped Wales playing, but that is very much down to a little of Englands gameplan and a little of Wales, and despite England playing a blinder Wales managed to nick it.

I won't go on with this past this last comment.

You're willfully misreading again. To suggest your reading of the Welsh/English game, whereby you say you were satsfied with the win and expected nothing less than a 'royal battle' from England, is to ignore many of your country men who express anything but. They don't want to say England played well so they instead say the scoreline suggests Wales simply played below themselves (ie, almost beat themselves with a poor England looking on as spectator). That's the only belief expressed in these threads that's being 'unfair' ------ to England.

I neither over-estimated England's performance nor over-estimated Wale's abilty. I said I witnessed a good game, not a spectacular game; a good game by Both sides. And Nothing I said is remotely unfair to either side.

by thebluesmancometh Sat 3 Mar - 19:40

Ok ok no need to bite my head off, I was trying to be as objective as I could.

My point was although this is the first time in memory Wales went to Twickers as favourites, the bars and pubs of Cardiff were immensely nervous pre kick off. We are not used to being fav's especially away to England but in reality this Welsh side is more settled and playing better than England at this very minute, the Welsh players would have been at the very mindset the fans were, optimistic but cautious, and any Welsh fan that says otherwiose is lying

by slartibartfast Sat 3 Mar - 19:49

SecretFly wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Secret

I think you over estimate both Englands performance and Wales abilities!!!

England 'gave us a game' is totally unfair on England and Wales, put into perspective Wales history at twickers a win is a win, and there is no way the players expected anything less than a royal battle!

England stopped Wales playing, but that is very much down to a little of Englands gameplan and a little of Wales, and despite England playing a blinder Wales managed to nick it.

I won't go on with this past this last comment.

You're willfully misreading again. To suggest your reading of the Welsh/English game, whereby you say you were satsfied with the win and expected nothing less than a 'royal battle' from England, is to ignore many of your country men who express anything but. They don't want to say England played well so they instead say the scoreline suggests Wales simply played below themselves (ie, almost beat themselves with a poor England looking on as spectator). That's the only belief expressed in these threads that's being 'unfair' ------ to England.

I neither over-estimated England's performance nor over-estimated Wale's abilty. I said I witnessed a good game, not a spectacular game; a good game by Both sides. And Nothing I said is remotely unfair to either side.

I predicted 19 - 21 to wales

my mate predicted the final result

there was the odd WUM that thought wales would walk it.

The "smash" comment was made with the thought of Hodgeson and Youngs starting,

Generally Wales respect England far more than people perceive.

by senghenydd1913 Sat 3 Mar - 19:59

miteyironpaw wrote:
HERSH wrote:What is all this talk of Wales's worst performance within a year?

True they struggled to beat a scratch England team that have only been around each other for a few weeks, but surely their worst performance was losing to Aus at the MS, that was the time they needed to lay down a marker and they failed miserably.

They might well go on and win the Slam and if they do then well done, but if they fail to win a series in Aus then once again they would have failed to make any real progress.

Too right. Home and away losses for Wales against Australia, contrasting to England's home and away victories. That is what gives me confidence that after watching Welsh indiscipline let them down in the RWC semi-final, England can achieve victory in Paris. England historically tend to keep their composure on the big stage, which is why we have 3 world cup finals and a world cup to our name.

Think I'll keep this one to resurrect after next weekends games Whistle

by Guest Sat 3 Mar - 21:53

slartibartfast wrote:
Generally Wales respect England far more than people perceive.

That's a good point. It's true the other way too (from England to Wales). Sometimes I have to remember that 606v2 doesn't quite reflect real life! Very Happy

by PJHolybloke Sat 3 Mar - 22:49

Well, since 1970 England have played France 51 times in all competitions, England have won 23 Lost 25 and Drawn 3; next weekend should see the balance being redressed.

Incidentally (you knew it was coming didn't you?) During the same period - including the halcyon days of the Welsh Wizards mind you - Wales have played France 47 times, Won 15, Lost 31 and Drawn 1.

I guess France blames Wales for Agincourt. The Greatest 6 Nation’s Rivalry of Them All - Eng v Fra.... - Page 2 1344700888

The Greatest 6 Nation’s Rivalry of Them All - Eng v Fra.... - Page 2 1344700888

In case anyone is interested, England's away record in France is P27 W9 L15 D3.

Wales' home record against France is P24 W10 L13 D1.

Hey, they're only statistics, nothing to be scared of, but I think France has a bunny...

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