The Rivalry That Should Be Perfect

Today's titanic semi-final was one of high quality. In a time when the tennis fan has grown restless of tiresome and long rallies, passive rallies, some speed courts, lack of innovation in shot making, talent being blunted. This was a great advert for the tennis that has slowly eaten away at the tennis fan. It was so good even Mother LK phoned to ask if I had seen the match and how much she enjoyed it! Her parting comment was "Shame it wasn't the final" I think it was a match of high quality and both players deserve enormous credit and without a doubt their legacy has gone up a notch.

It is scary to think this was the 35th encounter between the two. They have met each other at all 4 Slams in the finals. They have met at every Masters event bar Shanghai. It is staggering. They have met in 16 finals. 8-8 in finals. Amazing.

You feel now that really this rivalry has generated a new appreciation. You ask yourself why does this rivalry have low appreciation? Why is it met with slight contempt? Over the ages yes we have had rivalries that just so different in contrast. Borg/Connors, Lendl/McEnroe, Becker/Edberg, Sampras/Agassi, Federer/Nadal. They were all so different in their own unique way. Now we have Djokovic/Nadal and too many they are so alike in play. The Australian Open 2012 I think cast this rivalry into the scrap heap. No-one enjoys a 5 hour marathon designed for the last man standing being the victor. Whilst in the early beginnings Djokovic was playing catch up, he has now eclipsed Nadal as a player. Everything became equal.

When you talk Federer/Nadal the results seem to be based on who found their peak when. With nearly 5 years between Nadal and Federer in age will always play on the peak side of things. Borg was 4 years Connors junior. There was a year between Lendl and McEnroe. 2 years between Edberg and Becker and 1 year between Sampras and Agassi. 1 year separates Nadal and Djokovic.

For me Nadal and Djokovic has everything that makes a perfect rivalry. 2013 was Djokovic Mark III and 2013 has seen Nadal Mark II. If the AO 2012 final was death nail in the rivalry coffin, today has been a re-awakening. The nail was been well and truly removed. Seeing Nadal having to play aggressive and Djokovic when everything against him pulls out the lights out tennis that has seen him slay Federer in New York. There were passages of brilliant aggressive tennis.

I think this rivalry is perfect.

The match was of real high quality, and this is coming from a neutral observer, I am neither a Djoko nor Rafa fan but I was made to sit at the edge of the seat for the most part, its a shame one has to lose.

But yes this was a very high quality clay court match.

It may go down as the best rivalry in the modern era, but despite his comeback I don't see anything positive in this for Novak. Lets be honest he choked on those overheads and had the beating of Nadal in the 5th. There is never two winners, there is one winner and one loser. Both are all time great players, I never doubted Nadal's ability to win and compete for all the top honors, unlike some of his fans apparently.

As for Djokovic this is a start of a dark period for him in my mind. Wouldn't be surprised if Djokovic went on a mental vacation that saw him lose early at wimby. He made this French open to be the be all to his season, well now what that you lost it? It happens, he will be back, but his form has been poor since MC and that stupid ankle injury he suffered in a match he should have never played in that hurt his preparation. Still that isn't why he lost, Nadal played a smarter match, and held his nerve while Novak didn't. Still my favorite player, still think he is one of the best to ever pick up a racquet. But a terrible loss that will take its toll on him mentally and will not be an easy match to comeback from.

I think Novak got a lot more out of thos then you you claim, Socal. He should have been out in four, speaks volumes for his level of play that he got that far. Really great match, Nadal lifted in the fifth, when Djokovic did, something quite a few said he wouldnt be able to do. Interesting times ahead, in many ways this match went like the Aus Open final. Its remarkable to think that these are their only two Five-set matches. Fedal on the other hand had quite a few, didnt it? Miami 05, Wimbledon 07, Wimbledon 08, AO 09. Rome 06. Thats fivers on all surfaces.

He got his heart torn out for millions to watch, he lost a match he should of won. Frankly, I can't see him recovering from this match like it is another day at the office. A terrible finish to the match, from a Djokovic fans perspective. I'll be happy if he makes the semis of wimbeldon after this one.

Socal, I'm not quite so pessimistic as you but this definitely a challenging spell for Novak.

I actually feel frustrated with him which is unusual for me. I just don't think he is concentrating or focusing properly.

I don't think he is out of form in the true sense because for spells he can produce brilliant tennis. But then he goes through spells where he is awful.

The Berdych match was bad. You don't lose from that position.

Today, that third set! He'd got himself back in the match with some excellent play and then just stank for 5 games and blew the set.

The overheads, touching the net, complaining about the surface... concentrate Novak!

I didn't think Rafa was brilliant today. He was however consistently very good. He was I'd guess 8/10 for almost the whole 5 sets.

Novak was 3/10 and then 10/10 and then 7/10, then 4/10 then 8/10... just all over the place.

Getting this back on track to the OP, this is I think an excellent rivalry. Two players who can take each other to the brink on any surface.

But, for me, Nadal is now without doubt the world's best player. The rankings haven't caught up yet but, barring something special from Novak, they will.

What will drive Djokovic to distraction for the year, and for the rest of his career if he doesn't win this thing, is that he lost today not because the other guy hit balls past him but because he walked into the net before the ball was dead.

It cost him the match. Simple as that.

Now that is potentially disheartening. It would stop me sleeping.

I agree Murdoch, he went so up and down in this match in his level. But I disagree on Nadal. He was spectacular early with his serve up till the fourth set. And then he regained in the 5th. His backhand was spectacular. Novak let the frustration of all those incredible gets and winners from ridiculous position get to him. He should have won that 5th set and right now he is in a very difficult spot. Agree fully Nadal is the best player in the world right now despite the rankings.

bogbrush wrote:What will drive Djokovic to distraction for the year, and for the rest of his career if he doesn't win this thing, is that he lost today not because the other guy hit balls past him but because he walked into the net before the ball was dead.

It cost him the match. Simple as that.

Now that is potentially disheartening. It would stop me sleeping.

I finally agree with you on something, a terrible, terrible mistake. I can't see him rebounding from this loss like it is just another day at the park. He is a player that plays with a lot of emotion and streaks, this could be the start of a dark streak.

bogbrush wrote:What will drive Djokovic to distraction for the year, and for the rest of his career if he doesn't win this thing, is that he lost today not because the other guy hit balls past him but because he walked into the net before the ball was dead.

It cost him the match. Simple as that.

Now that is potentially disheartening. It would stop me sleeping.

It's a killer.

The worst part is that it is not even bad luck. It's just daft.

You guys need some time to heal after this one. Novak is strong enough to recover from this and maybe win the FO onne day.

There is no way Nadal is the world's best player holding one slam, the FO. He just squeaked a narrow victory on the surface that most favours him. If they played tomorrow on hard court Djokovic would start favourite, just look at his hard court record against Rafa especially since the start of 2011. And about 60% of the tour is on hard court.

Rafa has only put himself into a position where he can challenge for 1. He needs to win the US Open or Wimbledon or get to 1 in the rankings to be recognised as top dog this year.

Had Novak won today, we would be saying:

"Won their last two clay meetings, last one grass meeting and last 4/5 hard meetings, now dominating on all surfaces"

we would also be saying

"won their last match played at each of the 4 slams"

And we were very close to that.

In reality, a victory for Nole today would have tilted the rivalry and rankings battle heavily in his favour, a Nadal win keeps it much more balanced.

I'm not even emotionally committed to the guy and I can't stop thinking of it. It's horrible, it disturbs me. Sorry to mention it because if it was Federer it'd drive me mental.

F*cks sake!

Interesting point about the net touch though. That's the kind of thing that a Gasquet or Verdasco or average joe like you or me might never bounce back from. But Djokovic is stronger. His looks like a 1-FO career to me although..we'll see.

Also, it won't played on his mind, like..let's say he had a second serve at match point down today. he might have thought "last year this is how I blew it" and made the same mistake again. had he missed an easy forehand he might have felt more pressure on his forehand. But that may have been a one off. It might not happen again.

But for each FO loss, the pressure does build a little next time.

Henman Bill, I agree with you in the long run. I think he still has the beating of Nadal in this rivalry and don't doubt that Djokovic is the better player on a hardcourt either. But this is not one he will recover from quickly. He doesn't have the cool detachment of Federer, he is a streak player, a confidence player and I can't see how this won't be the start of a trying period for him. In the long run you are right HB, in the short run he is in a world of hurt and it isn't easy to just get out of it as talented as you are there are a lot of sharks in the tank.

HB, I'll accept that as a more objective view!

The result in itself doesn't unduly worry me. He had a similar set back in 2011 but bounced back and won Wimbledon.

It's more the emerging pattern of these losses of concentration and sudden dips that worry me.

bogbrush wrote:I'm not even emotionally committed to the guy and I can't stop thinking of it. It's horrible, it disturbs me. Sorry to mention it because if it was Federer it'd drive me mental.

F*cks sake!

That's about the gist of it!

Fortunately there is still a pilot light of rationality in my mind that is saying that anyone who does something that daft doesn't deserve to win.

If that pilot light goes out in the next few days, I may be reduced to a gibbering wreck!

On the plus side for you BB, I imagine that the comedy mileage you can get from that will last you until next year!

Nadal got lucky. Djokovic is a true champion and will bounce back. And on faster surfaces he has the measure of Nadal completely. Djok has plenty of time to win the French, starting with next year.

Look out Novak someone snuck a net onto the court!

socal1976 wrote:Look out Novak someone snuck a net onto the court!

HM Murdoch wrote:

bogbrush wrote:I'm not even emotionally committed to the guy and I can't stop thinking of it. It's horrible, it disturbs me. Sorry to mention it because if it was Federer it'd drive me mental.

F*cks sake!

That's about the gist of it!

Fortunately there is still a pilot light of rationality in my mind that is saying that anyone who does something that daft doesn't deserve to win.

If that pilot light goes out in the next few days, I may be reduced to a gibbering wreck!

On the plus side for you BB, I imagine that the comedy mileage you can get from that will last you until next year!

Well right now I couldn't use it (a) because its actually bothering me, (b) because its too far below the belt without the most extreme provocation. Now I can't think of anyone who's ever got me to that stage......

Keep that light burning!

Just watched a video of that "net-play". It looked a lot worse now than it did real-time. Initially I thought he was afraid of it clipping the net, so he had to hit it like that. but ffs, he could have hit a forehand drive off that. The body position he got himself into was awful. The more I see the more I think it was less luck, or lack thereof, or even stupidity. It was just messy technique. In cricket they say you can tell a player is going to drop it just by his body position, Nole might have done serious damage to himself if it wasnt for the net... The remonstrating with the umpire was funny, "but its off the court!!!"

Heres a video, Nadals finger point at the end was hilarious!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWchM2dqLyg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYWchM2dqLyg

Yep, probably cost him his serve. No argument from me kingraf, he is a great player but for some reason chokes away too many points on overheads, this was the worst of all of them.

socal1976 wrote:Yep, probably cost him his serve. No argument from me kingraf, he is a great player but for some reason chokes away too many points on overheads, this was the worst of all of them.

I think he threw one in at a very bad time v Murray in the USO final, and also against Federer at Wimbledon.

This was another level though.

To comment on the original point, this rivalry to me is not quite in the top league with Borg/Mcenroe, Sampras/Agassi and Federer/Nadal. Difficult to pin in down, but the entertainment value of the matches is a notch below, and so somehow is the superstar matchup of the rivalry in terms of contrasts of personality and off court superstar hype.

Even though Djokovic should have won, he shouldn't have really even been in a fifth set. Its actually a very similar scenario to Aus Open 2012. Djokovic was in complete control and it was really flat as it had a feeling of inevitability. Then Rafa decided to fight back and it goes down as the one of the all time great matches. But Rafa shouldn't have really been in a fifth set Djokovic should have put him away in the fourth. This match today ws really flat until Djokovic forced the tiebreak, I was actually somewhat bored up until then like I was in Australia.

Wimbledon is a bit up in the air but I would expect Novak to beat Nadal in all their encounters this year after Wimbledon

By the way, odd they stuck with ITV4 for this one and didn't have it on ITV1 also.

Mind you, Federer/Nadal lacked a bit of balance after Nadal won Wimbledon 08 and AO 09, it was too one sided, Nadal/Djokovic has better balance:

nadal leading overall head to head, but Djokovic more recently
Djokovic better on hard, Rafa better on clay

Nadal has won 4/5 matches- but on clay.
Before that Djokovic had a really good run in 2011.
The last time they played on hard, Djokovic won in 5 set epic.

It's a good rivalry, which tends to fluctuate for periods in one direction or the other.

Federer vs Djokovic is the most entertaining in my opinion

Interesting to see what people took out of that match, as it was listening to the commentators who, when referring to last year's final - mentioned the weather/rain/damp slow courts, only to Djokovic's "tear" through the fourth and beginning of the 5th sets.

2012 - Djokovic would never have been in a 5th set, had it not initially rained when Nadal was smoking him completely. The 1st rain intervention was the only thing that took Djokovic to where he was when the 2nd rain intervention came.

2013 - Nadal played great until 3-2 2nd set, at which point to me, he stepped back, made a lot of unforced errors, and let Djokovic back into the match.

Nadal should also have closed from 6-5, 30-15 in the 4th but what was GREAT to see was, although Djokovic was not playing well, seemed somewhat tired and out of sorts, managed to pull himself through, and win that 4th set, to take the match into a 5th. From there, indeed, he should have closed it out, and it will be a big "mistake" that he has to put behind him - the net touching at 4-3, 40-40. Whether it shows some humanity from this tremendous player, or the tiredness perhaps at that point, I don't know - and it's no "excuse," but possibly a reason that it happened. It wasn't a rushed shot and indeed, had he gone for the hard smash, centre of court, and bounced it out of the court area, he may well be preparing for his 2nd French final against someone who he could reasonably expect to beat, handily. But he's not. I don't see him taking an unduly long time to put it past him, as it's one of those "freak" things, and doesn't reflect on his game, playing level at the time. He'll bounce str8 back in terms of his "play," and I would think with his mental fortitude, it won't exact too much out of him.

Well played to both men, showed a lot of skill, determination and huge heart to produce what they did today.

I enjoyed the match but I will be honest the only other loss as painful for me was the Federer RG loss in 2011 that ended the streak. But that is the beauty of the sport. I think Nadal played well, Novak as Murdoch says went up and down much more in the match. Nadal's error count was amazing compared to the number of winners he hit that was a good point by Henman Bill.

The one thing I like about this rivalry is that I feel this is the absolute highest that level of baseline play I have ever seen. As many know I rate Djokovic and Nadal as the one two best baseliners of all time and that is a position I have received a lot of flack for. But the combination of offense, defense, speed and consistency both produce off both wings is really unique. I know some put it down to the conditions and tech, of course that plays a big part. But when I watch these two, I keep asking myself how can baseline tennis be higher than this.

Tennis players can attest, for you to play at your highest level you need an opponent to push you there. If you hit hard and move well and your opponent doesn't there is only so much you can do. But the balls these two get to and the shots they hit off of each other is like a dynamic dance that I haven't seen its equal, even when Murray is involved. And I have a lot of respect for Murray's ability he is right up there.

It was a painful loss but the figures Henman Bill posted made me feel a bit better.

It's not as if Novak was the better player and blew it. In some ways he was fortunate to be in with a shout of winning.

Painful to see such a great opportunity go begging but I don't feel any sense of injustice.

It was a great match but it takes more than a few great matches to elevate a rivalry into something for the history books. There are reasons why Borg/McEnroe, Evert/Navratalova or Federer/Nadal will probably always have a greater place in the public imagination than Nadal/Djokovic. I'll talk about Federer/Nadal because I know more about them...

With Federer/Nadal you get a great contrast in styles so the rivalry exposes the pro's and cons of styles and makes for interesting matches. They are both independently "All time greats" and can draw crowds to watch them play first round matches against whoever so getting them on the same court is bound to be a little bit special. An older established player was challenged by a younger rival who could possibly overtake him in terms of achievement (makes comparing their statistics interesting). They have a back log of magic matches that people can remember and discuss. They had this whole ownership thing going with Federer "owning" grass and Nadal "owning" clay. Who could steal some ground from the other.

I know some may say that Nadal/Djokovic could develop into a rivalry as interesting as this but it's not there yet. Djokovic needs to win quite a bit more independently to be more of a threat to Nadal. I don't mean by that as a threat to beat him in a match because he's always been that but a threat to were Nadal stands on a scale of "greatness".

I dont know but I sense that this rivalry is very similar to that of JMc and Connors.
Whatever face they both want to put on for the sake of fans and media I believe there is a little bit of "needle" there. Lets put it this way they showed the two of them passing each other at the practice court .. no acknowledgement was made by Rafa (not sure about Novak) the commentators made remark about it but as Fabrice said .. lets put it this way "I dont think they would go on holiday together"

Djokovic has stated he doesn't want to be friends with any rivals on tour period, Nadal's attitude is different where he says its ok to be friends off court but its different on court. You feel Novak lives more in a completely mentally structured bubble than Nadal, Federer and Murray. I wonder if this puts more mental strain on Novak over the long term...?

He may say that lydian but is actions betray him.. he appears to want the "love" that Rafa and Federer get so it may be a bit of reverse psychology

Nadal is the most lucky player in the history of tennis. Really, it's incredible.
He was mentally fragile early on in the fifth set, only needed one more nail in! his coffin. Djokovic hits the *****ing net! In all those years of watching tennis I've NEVER seen someone hit the net. Of course it had to happen at a crucial moment, at the verge of a historic win over Nadal, to let him back in the match. It will make the difference between the end of Nadal's slam winning days, and a repeat of Nadal's 2010. Because honestly, if Novak doesn't man up, nobody in this strong era is going to stop him.

Reminds me of those other lucky moments which have littered Nadal's career. Ferrer in Madrid this year when having chance to get MP, choses wrong side and somehow Nadal gets it back. Last year Ferrer in Rome has setpoint, Nadal hits total mishit and somehow goes in. Federer in 2006 Rome final, hits ace to go up 5-2 in final set, but is called out and Nadal comes back. He has so much luck it becomes disgusting.

Chydremion wrote:He has so much luck it becomes disgusting.

Naughty Rafito

No mention of the incredible mental fortitude Nadal showed yesterday, let's just ignore that shall we. And then you've cherry-picked a few events during Nadal's career where you feel he's got lucky... I could do that for any player.
You even bizarrely claim that good anticipation from the Ferrer shot is luck, and then complain that Roger hit a serve out in Rome 2006, which was verified after the line judge made a mistake
If Federer had actually got his serve in, it wouldn't have been out, would it?

As for yesterday, I think primarily it's Djokovic's responsibility not to break the rules by falling onto the net, simple as that really.

Red wrote:

Chydremion wrote:He has so much luck it becomes disgusting.

Naughty Rafito

No mention of the incredible mental fortitude Nadal showed yesterday, let's just ignore that shall we. And then you've cherry-picked a few events during Nadal's career where you feel he's got lucky... I could do that for any player.
You even bizarrely claim that good anticipation from the Ferrer shot is luck, and then complain that Roger hit a serve out in Rome 2006, which was verified after the line judge made a mistake
If Federer had actually got his serve in, it wouldn't have been out, would it?

As for yesterday, I think primarily it's Djokovic's responsibility not to break the rules by falling onto the net, simple as that really.

luck my proverbial backside... the mental aspect of Rafa´s game creates his so called LUCK

Luck

This always happens at the back end of a slam... tensions mount and people feel the best thing to do is not to accept it and move on, but to slag off the winner as though itll somehow make them feel better. Every bloody slam...

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Red wrote:

Chydremion wrote:He has so much luck it becomes disgusting.

Naughty Rafito

No mention of the incredible mental fortitude Nadal showed yesterday, let's just ignore that shall we. And then you've cherry-picked a few events during Nadal's career where you feel he's got lucky... I could do that for any player.
You even bizarrely claim that good anticipation from the Ferrer shot is luck, and then complain that Roger hit a serve out in Rome 2006, which was verified after the line judge made a mistake
If Federer had actually got his serve in, it wouldn't have been out, would it?

As for yesterday, I think primarily it's Djokovic's responsibility not to break the rules by falling onto the net, simple as that really.

luck my proverbial backside... the mental aspect of Rafa´s game creates his so called LUCK

Luck

So Nadal made Djokovic lose balance and hit the net? What a magical player. Let him declare goat straight away, cause I've never seen someone who has his powers.

What flavour were the grapes you had this morning

It's Djokovic's responsibility to not break the rules.

So Nadal made Djokovic lose balance and hit the net? What a magical player. Let him declare goat straight away, cause I've never seen someone who has his powers.
----------------------
That is the most inane thing I have ever heard out of the mouth of a Nadal detractor... Novak was in charge of his own destiny.. Rafa never pushed him.
I grow lemons in my garden perhaps you should suck on one of those instead of sour grapes

In a strange way, I think Rafa DID make Novak hit the net!

He was making it so tough for Novak to see out his service games that he ended up doing something silly and desperate.

A calm mind does not even approach that ball in the way Novak did, with that odd jump and strange body position.

It was a shot from a mind that was not thinking straight. And the reason it was not thinking straight was the pressure Rafa was exerting.

Good point HM, I think in general playing someone like Nadal can really test your spirit.

O Naughty boy Rafa it was all your fault.

One could argue that Rafa got points deducted for time violation
Novak got a warning for time violation.. no deduction of points

Life just aint fair is it

Haddie-nuff wrote:O Naughty boy Rafa it was all your fault.

One could argue that Rafa got points deducted for time violation
Novak got a warning for time violation.. no deduction of points

Life just aint fair is it

Strictly speaking, Rafa got points deducted for a second time violation...

Well then there you go.. and Novak didnt... so Rafa struck lucky did he ????

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well then there you go.. and Novak didnt... so Rafa struck lucky did he ????

I'm not really sure what point you're making?

Chydremion wrote:Nadal is the most lucky player in the history of tennis. Really, it's incredible.
He was mentally fragile early on in the fifth set, only needed one more nail in! his coffin. Djokovic hits the *****ing net! In all those years of watching tennis I've NEVER seen someone hit the net. Of course it had to happen at a crucial moment, at the verge of a historic win over Nadal, to let him back in the match. It will make the difference between the end of Nadal's slam winning days, and a repeat of Nadal's 2010. Because honestly, if Novak doesn't man up, nobody in this strong era is going to stop him.

Reminds me of those other lucky moments which have littered Nadal's career. Ferrer in Madrid this year when having chance to get MP, choses wrong side and somehow Nadal gets it back. Last year Ferrer in Rome has setpoint, Nadal hits total mishit and somehow goes in. Federer in 2006 Rome final, hits ace to go up 5-2 in final set, but is called out and Nadal comes back. He has so much luck it becomes disgusting.

HM this is the point Im making...