Flood, Along With Others Released Back To His Club

According to the Beeb.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17277936

Guess that means Hodgson is classed by SL as the better bench option.

Tbh getting fed up with this now (as I did when Jonno made the same mistake). Flood is our #1 FH, with Farrell showing he can slot in if/when required. This selection seems neither to develop the side, nor to pick a current team to beat France. Mallett must be smiling.

How is starting a 20 yr old at fly half, not developing the side?

belovedfrosties wrote:How is starting a 20 yr old at fly half, not developing the side?

Flood is only 26 so is likely to last a few years yet...I think too much is expected of young Farrell

..talking about Hodgson over Flood. Flood has done enough to regain his position in the 22. And I think Flood at/near his best is a better/more attacking option than Farrell. We can't play all our games with the sole gameplan of negating the oppo. A brave attempt at keeping the scores close isn't good enough if we end up just losing our last 3 games. We need to score some tries.

Cymroglan wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:How is starting a 20 yr old at fly half, not developing the side?

Flood is only 26 so is likely to last a few years yet...I think too much is expected of young Farrell

Pick the form man though, obvious decision, Farrell is being overrated, but hasn't done much wrong, whilst Flood is average this year. Make him fight to get the shirt back

Yeah I know Barney i was only yanking your chain. I'm a bit miffed as to why Hodgson has been favoured, it may be to give flood more game time and be fit and hungry for the Irish though. If he hasn't quite got back to speed France away may not be the best place for him. Feel like I'm clutching at straws abit here though!

Or maybe Lancaster just wants our top try scorer back in the game? A try a game is not to be sniffed at!!!

Too be honest i actually think Lancaster is doing fine.

Flood has been injured and is getting back into the swing of things. Farrell played very well v Wales...a game we were unlucky to lose.

Thus give Flood more time to recover and find his form back at Leicester and in the meantime have another look at how Farrell copes with the French. Win win situation if you ask me.

There is something missing here. Hodgson over Flood? Strange. My first inclination was to say WTF. But, if in training, Flood still looked a bit off his best, then sending him back to Leicester is a good idea. As Bathite said, make Flood fight for his position. But if he looked fine in training, then the selection is a complete mystery. Anyone see any explanations?

Wrong decision for me. Sure Farrell deserves to keep his place but would have selected Flood for the bench and really disagree with this selection. Expect the side that started against Wales to be the same with the only changes being Palmer and Hodgson on the bench for Lawes & Flood. Really don't like Palmer as a bench option, although a good player he strikes me as having zero impact potential and instead would just come and do a steady job if required. Would have been happier to see Garvey but SL chose not to call him up after the Lawes injury for some reason.

Although he's not been officially released I can't see Marler being anything other than squad back-up. Correctly in my opinion, France away is not the place to give a debut to as yet untried maybe iffy scrummaging loose head prop, no matter how good he is in the loose. His time will come.

Apparently Flood has been released back to Tigers because Charlie Hodgson is fit.

Really?

Stuart Lancaster hates the idea of England scoring tries (through anything other than a chargedown) it seems. He obviously didnt watch Flood and Youngs at the weekend.
His biggest failing so far, trying too hard to see past Englands best players and not getting the best from those who 12 months ago looked set for Lions spots...Youngs Flood Lawes Ashton and Foden.

Charlie "place filler" Hodgson peformed adequatly in the games he was given, but I dont see the logic in ditching the best fly half of the 3 for the utterly uninspiring Hodgson. The chargedowns thing aside (a role Botha seems to have picked up) what exactly does Hodgson offerthat Flood doesnt? What Flood ofers that he doesnt is a running game and the ability to get the backs moving and create space.
Instead we have two fly halves who will continue to make Barrit and Tuillagi look like Tindall and Noon as they batter up against set defences haveing no option but to take contact.

Its an odd decision PSW but has Flood really done enough to warrent starting or even sitting on the bench yet?

Could SL be trying to give Flood one more club game before the Irish match?

Played fine when he came on for England (instrumental in two of their best plays), played a blinder at the weekend for Tigers ...Hodgson has spent two weeks on the sidelines and was no more than solid and adequate in the games he played for England.
Prior to that Flood was good enough to win caps under the three previous coaches , and get picked ahead of Hodgson.

The only logic is they want the backs playing boriung uninspired Saracens style rugby. Exactly the sort of thing of thing Johnson would have been hammered for.

The game plan appears to be to bore France to death and not lose by that much.

I think that SL possibly had an eye on Irelands Defensive efforts against France on Sunday and may want to approach France in the same manner and that suits Farrell and Hodgson better.

Personally i feel that it could be a very dangerous approach. I would start with Farrell but would have Flood on the bench ahead of Hodgson.

Wasnt Hodgson MOM at the weekend?

Quite Billy.

No plan B, just more of the same kick and hope. As with the Wales game we know its inevitabel that France iwll score a try at some point, can England solely rely on frustrating France and outkicking them or capitalising on mistakes?
They barely pulled it off against Scotland and Italy.

Goopd point Geordie but Im ignoring that as it doesnt fit in with my narrow blinkered veiw

https://www.606v2.com/t25335-flood-along-with-others-released-back-to-his-club

Oh and sorry mods...didnt see this one...can you merge?

The main concern i have in all of this is, have England the ability to utilise the Blitz/Rush defence as well as Ireland did against France? Going by their showings so far i am not so sure. I fear that unless England defend perfectly then gaps will appear. Surely France wont play so slowly again as they did against Ireland...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Quite Billy.

No plan B, just more of the same kick and hope. As with the Wales game we know its inevitabel that France iwll score a try at some point, can England solely rely on frustrating France and outkicking them or capitalising on mistakes?
They barely pulled it off against Scotland and Italy.

Goopd point Geordie but Im ignoring that as it doesnt fit in with my narrow blinkered veiw

and quite right too....

Morning boys.
I think its actually rather stunning when almost the whole squad is built with the future and youth in mind to have Hodgson back there if Flood is passable.

On the other thread I mentioned the only reason I could concieve is that the England management think Flood is still not back to full strength. But, last evening I finally watched Leicester's match from the weekend and he seemed fine (although the match looked a bit like a practice session, to be fair). So, this is a bit hard to understand.

eirebilly wrote:I think that SL possibly had an eye on Irelands Defensive efforts against France on Sunday and may want to approach France in the same manner and that suits Farrell and Hodgson better.

Personally i feel that it could be a very dangerous approach. I would start with Farrell but would have Flood on the bench ahead of Hodgson.

Eirebilly, I agree with your conclusion, but not the reasoning. Youngs and Flood are joined at the hip and tend to bring out the best in each other. They should both be on the bench with the view to bring them off more or less together.

I'd have to agree with PSW that Charlie has been at best mediocre at this level and that the Saracens' influence is there for all to behold. Not pretty.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wasnt Hodgson MOM at the weekend?

In a sensational display of creative rugby? Or a not?

In fairness Portnoy, Youngs has looked way off form but is deserved of a bench spot all the same.

If indeed England are going for this approach then i feel that they have to execute it perfectly as if they dont, France will open them up and the game could be over before Flood and Youngs get the call.

At the same time though, it may work. It did for Ireland for 40 minutes

Portnoy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wasnt Hodgson MOM at the weekend?

In a sensational display of creative rugby? Or a not?

Cant honestly comment mate...just noticed that he had picked up the MOM...

The only reason Hodgson would be in is for his excellent place kicking at the weekend...but doesn't Farrell do all that anyway? It seems SL is rewarding loyalty over form.

eirebilly wrote:The main concern i have in all of this is, have England the ability to utilise the Blitz/Rush defence as well as Ireland did against France? Going by their showings so far i am not so sure. I fear that unless England defend perfectly then gaps will appear. Surely France wont play so slowly again as they did against Ireland...

They might be able to and Ashton could prove to be as much as an annoyance than Bowe but ultimately I am unsure their backrow will be as effective as the Irish one (specially taking into account great individual performances such as Ferris's) and they might not as succesfull in slowing down the ball than Ireland as well. At the same time, they have been quite disciplined so far so think they have their chances. France will want to test their scruim, line out first, they wont risk any slow/clumsy back play from their own 22 as they did against Ireland. French players also have more pressure to win this one as "Le Crunch" is the game of the 6N here regardless of the pedigree of the players and respective standings. am as usual so looking forward to this one.

doctor_grey wrote:Morning boys.
I think its actually rather stunning when almost the whole squad is built with the future and youth in mind to have Hodgson back there if Flood is passable.

On the other thread I mentioned the only reason I could concieve is that the England management think Flood is still not back to full strength. But, last evening I finally watched Leicester's match from the weekend and he seemed fine (although the match looked a bit like a practice session, to be fair). So, this is a bit hard to understand.

Quite.

I think whats really surprisng is that LAncaster was suppossed to be putting and endf to teh stodgy old England and bringing in all this attacking young flair.

What hes done isnstead is exactly what Johnson was always accussed of, refussed to back them to win games iwth that and picked a side thats scared of using the wide men. The team is being built around frustrating the opposition ratehr than concentrating on their own game, are we Scotland?
What happened to the slow steps forward?

Ignoring Flood for Hodgosn is a retrograde step. Even the experience argument cuts no slack with me, Flood has more than enough of that after 6 years with England.



Billy,

Youngs was back on his game at the weekend as well. Scored a try and put in some of his trademark snipeing runs ( something neitehr scrum half has done under Lancaster).

Anyone thought maybe,despite a good showing at the weekend.., that Flood isnt quite fit enough yet?

So SL has plumped to give him more time with his club, whilst having another look at how Farrell copes against another strong side, with an experienced head on the bench...

After all Lawes came back fairly early and he's lost again now through injury...

Geordie,.,

Hes been playing for Tigers for a month now. Getting hauled off after 60 minutes was more down to the game being utterly won, protecting him and giveing Ford a run out than any lack of fitness on his part.

The "form over class" argument would cut more mustard if Ashton wasnt being reatined for every starting lineup regardless of just how badly he can manage to play.

The reality is that Lancaster has set out the way he wants this side to play, conservatively. Floods desire to stand up close to the breakdown doesnt fit with that.

I think its the right call, Flood has done nothing to suggest he deserves to walk back into the team, Farrell did ok against Wales and Charge Down Charlie hasn't put a foot wrong.

HERSH wrote:I think its the right call, Flood has done nothing to suggest he deserves to walk back into the team, Farrell did ok against Wales and Charge Down Charlie hasn't put a foot wrong.

He was in the team, its Hodgson whos walked back in.

Good Lord! this post just looks as if its full of good rugby discussion - well done lads. I'm in the Flood camp here but to some extent I respect the fact that SL has stuck with Charlie who gave his all in the first 2 tests. My fear would be if something happens to Farrell in the Paris cauldron, and it could easily happen, then England have to call on Charlie who's not reknowned for his composure under pressure. Flood IMO is Englands number 1 out half and its a brave decision.

As long as England have a mind set that they are trying to develop a team then I think that's fair enough but unfortunately most of us fans and the media in particular want wins and after a pretty inept performance against Ireland, France will have something to prove and this could be the most intriguing game of the weekend. Good luck lads

Nobody better at conservative play than Hodgson. It's what he's known for after all. Pretty much a Wilkinson clone.

Doesn't anybody think that maybe Farrell will be given the full game so it only matters who's on the bench if he gets injured?

I'd prefer Flood to play a full game at Leicester to keep improving his match fitness than sitting on the bench for a full game. As my favourite ref at the moment would say "Just chillax"

I agree with Peter. On the weekend Flood played well and most importantly for me, showed no hesitation or concern about injury. He ran and tackled as normal. It wasn't a close match so after a while he could play relaxed. Based on that, I would have Flood in the 22.

Flood is not a kid anymore. He is a solid experienced international level fly half. Why not in the team?

You could also say that Flood had a complete armchair ride with the Leicester pack utterly dominating the Gloucester pack in every aspect. Is that likely to happen against France? Definately not. There have been concerns over Youngs and Flood when the pack isn't so dominate.

This is in contrast to the weak pack Hodgson and Farrell play behind......hold on a minute, I need to think this through a bit more.

Thunnor,

If the Wales game is anything to go by then Farrell simply isnt ophysically up to 80 minutes oif intense test rugby. Hes busted his guts out for England, but couldnt even come close to goiung the distance. I dont expect hell get any more of an easy ride this weekend, and Id be very surprissed to see him on the picth at the end even if he has somehow managed to keep Engkland in the game.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Thunnor,

If the Wales game is anything to go by then Farrell simply isnt ophysically up to 80 minutes oif intense test rugby. Hes busted his guts out for England, but couldnt even come close to goiung the distance. I dont expect hell get any more of an easy ride this weekend, and Id be very surprissed to see him on the picth at the end even if he has somehow managed to keep Engkland in the game.

He got a cramp...nothing to do with his overall fitness...

Pick the form man though, obvious decision, Farrell is being overrated, but hasn't done much wrong, whilst Flood is average this year. Make him fight to get the shirt back.

Flood has not been average this year, Youngs has been the one struggling with form because of injuries. The only way Flood was going to start against France was if he agreed to sign for Sarries next season and even then it wouldn't be certain (unless adoption by Farrell Snr was possible).

At the weekend Sarries nudged past a pretty awful Saints team failing the score a try. In similar conditions Tigers deconstructed Gloucester (who were also awful). Flood's tactical kicking was spot on I think he only missed 1 of 6 kicks at goal and was instrumental in Tigers playing some very good rugby even though the conditions were against him. The most creative we've looked all 6N was when Flood came on against Wales.

I think its the right call, Flood has done nothing to suggest he deserves to walk back into the team

Flood has never put a foot wrong for England and in his 20 mins has created more than Hodgson and Farrell managed in the other 220 mins of 6N. Farrell and Hodgson were allowed to walk straight into the first team. I think this is a massive mistake.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Apparently Flood has been released back to Tigers because Charlie Hodgson is fit.

Really?

Stuart Lancaster hates the idea of England scoring tries (through anything other than a chargedown) it seems. He obviously didnt watch Flood and Youngs at the weekend.
His biggest failing so far, trying too hard to see past Englands best players and not getting the best from those who 12 months ago looked set for Lions spots...Youngs Flood Lawes Ashton and Foden.

Charlie "place filler" Hodgson peformed adequatly in the games he was given, but I dont see the logic in ditching the best fly half of the 3 for the utterly uninspiring Hodgson. The chargedowns thing aside (a role Botha seems to have picked up) what exactly does Hodgson offerthat Flood doesnt? What Flood ofers that he doesnt is a running game and the ability to get the backs moving and create space.
Instead we have two fly halves who will continue to make Barrit and Tuillagi look like Tindall and Noon as they batter up against set defences haveing no option but to take contact.

Hmmmmmmmm "not getting the best from our best players" and looking beyond them to the yuff. This is i suppose what you might expect from a coach who is not quite the full quid in terms of experience at this level and whose experience and skills to date have been employed in nurturing said yuff in the Saxons.

In other words Lancaster is doing what it says on the tin!

Perhaps well drop a test to France or Ireland that we couldve won with Flood. It's not completely wasted time though...

When Mallett takes over (pray it is isnt Jake White if you think Lancaster's team are playing boring!!) players such as barritt and farell will have gained valuable experience.

I too wouldve like to have seen Garvey or Attwood on the bench rather than Palmer who i see as a starter or nowhere.

p.s stop whingeing Leicester supporters. Lancaster's motives are fine enough even if he is making the odd mistake.

It is not some grand conspiracy!!

Settle down!

The Leicester Mafia aren't happy!

Flood needs more game time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Pick the form man though, obvious decision, Farrell is being overrated, but hasn't done much wrong, whilst Flood is average this year. Make him fight to get the shirt back.

Flood has not been average this year, Youngs has been the one struggling with form because of injuries. The only way Flood was going to start against France was if he agreed to sign for Sarries next season and even then it wouldn't be certain (unless adoption by Farrell Snr was possible).

At the weekend Sarries nudged past a pretty awful Saints team failing the score a try. In similar conditions Tigers deconstructed Gloucester (who were also awful). Flood's tactical kicking was spot on I think he only missed 1 of 6 kicks at goal and was instrumental in Tigers playing some very good rugby even though the conditions were against him. The most creative we've looked all 6N was when Flood came on against Wales.

I think its the right call, Flood has done nothing to suggest he deserves to walk back into the team

Flood has never put a foot wrong for England and in his 20 mins has created more than Hodgson and Farrell managed in the other 220 mins of 6N. Farrell and Hodgson were allowed to walk straight into the first team. I think this is a massive mistake.

I don't you if your trying to deliberately make a point about the rubbish regarding "Leicester Mafia" when Johnson was in or not. But you sound just as crazy and bitter as Beshocked did before the World Cup. Maybe it's deliberate to make a point (like with Seabiscuit). You're even beginning to approach MikeyPhil levels.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

He got a cramp...nothing to do with his overall fitness...

Well we are assuming the cramp was caused by his delicate little body not being up to it yet.

Triangulation wrote:

Hmmmmmmmm "not getting the best from our best players" and looking beyond them to the yuff. This is i suppose what you might expect from a coach who is not quite the full quid in terms of experience at this level and whose experience and skills to date have been employed in nurturing said yuff in the Saxons.

In other words Lancaster is doing what it says on the tin!

Perhaps well drop a test to France or Ireland that we couldve won with Flood. It's not completely wasted time though...

When Mallett takes over (pray it is isnt Jake White if you think Lancaster's team are playing boring!!)

I too wouldve like to have seen Garvey or Attwood on the bench rather than Palmer who i see as a starter or nowhere.

He isnt though. Hes still picking most of them regardless of how badly they play under him, yet drops Flood for an older guy.

[quote= " Triangulation"]
players such as barritt and farell will have gained valuable experience.[/quote]

Great, then we can get on with slagging them off for being pick on experience over form and ability

For the record Ive supported the Barritt / Tuilagi parnetership and supported Farrells continued presence in the team ahead of Flood, its Hodgson that leaves me deflated.

Triangulation wrote:p.s stop whingeing Leicester supporters. Lancaster's motives are fine enough even if he is making the odd mistake.

It is not some grand conspiracy!!

Settle down!

No I dont think it sis, but how come Lancatser gets an easy ride for picking a Saracens side from the same people who constantly critisized Johnson for picking Leicester players?
The jokes are pointing fun at that double standard.

Id also like to think most people would prefer to watch and England side base around Saints Gloucester and Leicester attacking styles rather than the safe predicatable "works at club level when you cheat the salary cap" game of Saracens/Farrell. ( not bitter )

I don't you if your trying to deliberately make a point about the rubbish regarding "Leicester Mafia" when Johnson was in or not.

I was.

But you sound just as crazy and bitter as Beshocked did before the World Cup. Maybe it's deliberate to make a point (like with Seabiscuit). You're even beginning to approach MikeyPhil levels..

Now, now no need to throw insults, MikeyPhil indeed.

I was disagreeing with the rhetoric that Flood is 'out of form' which is rubbish, he played well if not great against Sarries, played very well off the bench against Wales and was superb at the weekend against Gloucester. He's had 4 games since his injury (including two full ones) he is back to fitness and form and he has been dropped because the coaching staff want to go with Farrell and Hodgson and for no other reason.

Now if Lancaster was dropping players for lacking fitness and form then Ben Youngs should be back at Tigers. His performance at the weekend was better but not polished yet he maintains his place.

If you're baking an ideal England playing style cake please dont forget the Quinns ingredient!!

What Lancaster has done in picking a bit of a Saracens spine is perfectly understandable. He had limited time to get the team to gel so he went for established club units.

It is precisely what Gatland did (though not to the same extent as Gatland) in his first game in charge 2008 when he picked the Hairsprays.

You start from a solid base and then you can chop and change from there as form demands.

Hodgson kicked what ? 18 points on the weekend and played well. Flood and Youngs played well but neither made an unanswerable case for recall.

Oh and they had the kind of armchair ride they do not get with England.

I suspect that they have not been completely forgiven for Ireland 2011 6N.......

I have to agree with Sam here - Look at the Mathew Rees scenario with Wales and the Gethin Jenkins situation - Both the young prop v Ireland and Owens v England had very impressive games but as soon as your best are back, you get them in. The best indicator of future performance is past performance and hence the Hodgson over Flood debate seems a mute point IMO as Flood is far superior and consistent and he has more composure when under pressure and a greater variety to his game, including a more solid defence than CH

Oh dear.

I wonder what debate we'll be having this time next year when George Ford will be nudging twenty.

Can not understand this.

As others have said it looks like we'll be trying to strangle France and keep it tight, maybe win by a kick, almost like Saracens game plan...

Can't see it working though as the players we have don't seem to suit the game plan and it's far more difficult to bully teams for the full 80 at international level.

What happnes if we're 8 points down with 20 minutes left? Can't see Hodgeson getting us those points to win the game unless he's made a pact with the devil to get another charge down.

We'll need a superhuman pack effort this weekend as again I can't see the backs doing too much.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Thunnor,

If the Wales game is anything to go by then Farrell simply isnt ophysically up to 80 minutes oif intense test rugby. Hes busted his guts out for England, but couldnt even come close to goiung the distance. I dont expect hell get any more of an easy ride this weekend, and Id be very surprissed to see him on the picth at the end even if he has somehow managed to keep Engkland in the game.

He got a cramp...nothing to do with his overall fitness...

During Englands game against Wales i noticed this from Farrell. His fitness levels are good but i did question his ability to sustain the intensity of international rugby for 80mins. The cramp may not have bearing on his fitness levels but it most certainly does have bearing on the intensity of a match.

That said, it could all have been just a one off

yappysnap wrote:Can not understand this.

As others have said it looks like we'll be trying to strangle France and keep it tight, maybe win by a kick, almost like Saracens game plan...

Can't see it working though as the players we have don't seem to suit the game plan and it's far more difficult to bully teams for the full 80 at international level.

What happnes if we're 8 points down with 20 minutes left? Can't see Hodgeson getting us those points to win the game unless he's made a pact with the devil to get another charge down.

We'll need a superhuman pack effort this weekend as again I can't see the backs doing too much.

He has made a pact. And i intend to honour it......mm mmwaha mmmwhahahahahhahahahaha