Revolutionaries and innovators

Throughout its history, boxing has produced many colourful characters, a rich array of different boxing styles, and several fights of seminal importance, both in the sporting sense and also in the socioligical. It has also produced quite a few fighters of whom it could be said that they genuinely changed the course of boxing, prompting the rewriting of the text book and / or spawning generations of imitators. Whom, then, do we regard as having been the genuine revolutionaries ?

I'll start the ball rolling with a couple of heavyweights.

James J Corbett is often regarded as having been the father of modern boxing. During the transition between the bareknuckle and Queensbury eras Corbett was the pioneer of movement, speed and skill. Sadly, the surviving film, ( the Fitzsimmons fight and an exhibition, ) is almost unwatchable, but eyewitness and newspaper accounts are unanimous in saying that he was a revelation. He is also credited with having invented the left hook as we know it today. Legend has it that Corbett broke his thumb during a bout, and in order to protect the thumb while still being able to punch with the left hand he improvised on the spot, turning what had erstwhile been a swinging punch into the short hook that we know today. His movement, jabbing technique and some of his defensive ploys hugely influenced Jack Johnson and when, at nearly sixty years old, he sparred an exhibition with Gene Tunney the young Tunney - often dismissive of the ' old school ' style - announced that he had learned a great deal from the old master.

A true revolutionary, as was my next pick, Jack Dempsey.

By the time Dempsey blitzed Willard to take the crown in 1919 the heavyweight division had already seen some great fighters. The immensely strong and heavy hitting Sullivan ; Corbett ; Fitzsimmons, the cunning and crafty tactician with a thunderous punch ; Jeffries, a bear of a man who was almost impossible to hurt, sported a strange, crouching style, and carried a wallop which could put the strongest man to sleep, and the brilliant Johnson, who made an art form of ' catching ' punches, possessed wonderful technique and probably the best uppercut in heavyweight history until Tyson and Lewis came along.

Dempsey was the first to combine elements of all of these and merge them together. Speed, tremendous punching power, cunning, under rated footwork, ( in my opinion, ) a consistent and effective bob and weave, topped off by his insatiable aggression and will to win, all came together to produce a style which would influence generations to come, all the way through to Duran and Tyson. Such was the freshness of Dempsey's style that he was able to capture the imaginations of the masses and almost single handedly establish boxing as the mainstream sport it became.

Whatever our opinions of Corbett and Dempsey, there surely could be no doubt that they were true innovators and pioneers who changed the course of boxing techniques and styles, helping to shape them into what we see today. There are many others, so which fighters would you fellas pick as the true revolutionaries ?

Jack Marks

For the work he did for Ted the Kid Lewis.

Now Every boxer pro or amateur benefits for what he and Lewis did.

Daniel Mendoza is the father of modern boxing, he literally wrote the book on it. And created a change in boxing that far surpasses anything Corbet has done.

Ayup Windy, nice article to come back to after a disasterous Sunday afternoon of rugby. Corbett and Dempsey are obviously great shouts, in addition I'd suggest John Broughton who drew up the first set of rules for boxing as we know it, the likes of Gabriel 'Flash' Elorde and Carlos Ortiz who helped revive the Super-Featherweight and Light-Welterweight (the two finest divisions outside of the eight 'classic' ones) after long dormant spells, and, outside of the ring, Jimmy Walker for his role in ending the 'No Decision' era, which I have always believed to be a key point in boxing history.

Nice stuff.

D4thincarnation wrote:Daniel Mendoza is the father of modern boxing, he literally wrote the book on it. And created a change in boxing that far surpasses anything Corbet has done.

Nonetheless, Corbett is widely regarded as being the father of modern boxing, and his innovations DID significantly influence boxing technique. Otherwise we might question why his victory over Sullivan was heralded by those who saw it as the dawning of a new age. Had he been merely replicating Mendoza it would not have caused the stir which it did.

Not everything need be reduced to a simple ' either or ' situation. The whole point of this thread is to identify ALL of those who had a profound influence on boxing styles. Mendoza is a worthy addition, but his inclusion by no means diminishes the contribution of others.

A dentist who invented the gumshield, however, probably exerted zero inflluence on boxing style, though you clearly regard him as being worthy of a mention.

A tad inconsistent, wouldn't you say ?

obvious choice but ali- both in terms of his rope a dope tactics, but also in terms of the mind games he played with his oppopents before a fight.

especially coming into the liston fight as the heavy underdogg against somebody who has destroyed patterson in the 1st by KO- liston with his mob connections and prison time served should have been a very intimidating opponent, but ali never let it get to him and employed his own mind games- which now seem standard procedure between boxers today

88Chris05 wrote:Ayup Windy, nice article to come back to after a disasterous Sunday afternoon of rugby. Corbett and Dempsey are obviously great shouts, in addition I'd suggest John Broughton who drew up the first set of rules for boxing as we know it, the likes of Gabriel 'Flash' Elorde and Carlos Ortiz who helped revive the Super-Featherweight and Light-Welterweight (the two finest divisions outside of the eight 'classic' ones) after long dormant spells, and, outside of the ring, Jimmy Walker for his role in ending the 'No Decision' era, which I have always believed to be a key point in boxing history.

Nice stuff.

Afternoon, Chris.

Thanks for the contribution and kind words. Very good shout for Broughton, and even more so for Walker. The end of the ' no decision ' era most definitely injected new life into boxing and encouraged a more pro active style.

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Daniel Mendoza is the father of modern boxing, he literally wrote the book on it. And created a change in boxing that far surpasses anything Corbet has done.

Nonetheless, Corbett is widely regarded as being the father of modern boxing, and his innovations DID significantly influence boxing technique. Otherwise we might question why his victory over Sullivan was heralded by those who saw it as the dawning of a new age. Had he been merely replicating Mendoza it would not have caused the stir which it did.

Not everything need be reduced to a simple ' either or ' situation. The whole point of this thread is to identify ALL of those who had a profound influence on boxing styles. Mendoza is a worthy addition, but his inclusion by no means diminishes the contribution of others.

A dentist who invented the gumshield, however, probably exerted zero inflluence on boxing style, though you clearly regard him as being worthy of a mention.

A tad inconsistent, wouldn't you say ?

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-modern-art-of-boxing/5232209

Daniel Mendoza, considered perhaps the greatest boxer of the Broughton era, records in this book one of the earliest and most important manuals on English Boxing. In this manual, probably written late 1789, the immensely popular Mendoza details the “scientific” methods he used to successfully compete in a terrifically physical sport for which no weight classes existed, himself being 5’7” and 160 lbs. Herein he stipulates specifics on training, diet, and sleep. He then describes fight strategy and, perhaps most importantly, lays out a series of 6 detailed blow-by-blow lessons for instructing students in the science of English Boxing. He closes out his manual with a description of one of his most famous fights against Richard Humphreys, the first three rounds of which read like the script for a Bruce Lee movie with Humphreys striking out, Mendoza parrying and then returning a single blow which knocks Humphreys off of feet, ending the round.

Just because a lot of people say so doesn't mean it is right.

Marks and Mendoza, both changed the sport in there own ways.

Bill Richmond, used his movement hands peed and work rate to much bigger boxers many years before Corbett, and influenced other with his style.

D4thincarnation wrote:Just because a lot of people say so doesn't mean it is right.

Marks and Mendoza, both changed the sport in there own ways.

Likewise those who say Mendoza, D4.

It's all about opinions. I do realize that that's an alien concept to you but that's how it is. I appreciate your contribution, and I appreciate eddy's pick of Ali, Chris' of Walker, and those of anybody else who mentions true innovators. All opinions are welcome.

D4thincarnation wrote:Bill Richmond, used his movement hands peed and work rate to much bigger boxers many years before Corbett, and influenced other with his style.

Then we can add Richmond to the names of Mendoza, Corbett, Dempsey, Marks, Broughton, Walker and Ali, can't we ?

Well done.

Tunney was one of the first boxers to watch the tapes of his opponents to prepare a game plan.

Today thats part of parcel of today top boxers.

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Bill Richmond, used his movement hands peed and work rate to much bigger boxers many years before Corbett, and influenced other with his style.

Then we can add Richmond to the names of Mendoza, Corbett, Dempsey, Marks, Broughton, Walker and Ali, can't we ?

Well done.

I thought the innovator means means to invent, create, not copy.

Mendoza is the Issac Newton of boxing, but Corbett is not the Einstein.

D4thincarnation wrote:I thought the innovator means means to invent, create, not copy.

Quite so, D4.

This is why I picked Corbett, who is widely accredited with having had a tremendous influence on modern boxing style, and is also credited with having invented the left hook as we know it today.

Problem being Mendoza was a bare knuckle boxer whereas Corbett was a gloved boxer, the styles by virtue of that simple difference is hugely different.

Thus far, then, we have the following, each of whom influenced boxing STYLE in a profound way :

Corbett
Dempsey
Mendoza
Broughton
Walker
Ali
Richmond

Whom else could we add ?

imperialghosty wrote:Problem being Mendoza was a bare knuckle boxer whereas Corbett was a gloved boxer, the styles by virtue of that simple difference is hugely different.

Rules change all the time, do we throw out the history when new rules come in?

D4thincarnation wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:Problem being Mendoza was a bare knuckle boxer whereas Corbett was a gloved boxer, the styles by virtue of that simple difference is hugely different.

Rules change all the time, do we throw out the history when new rules come in?

We embrace the changes and adapt, which is precisely what Corbett did.

Macario Flores, the inventor of the Bolo punch.

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:Problem being Mendoza was a bare knuckle boxer whereas Corbett was a gloved boxer, the styles by virtue of that simple difference is hugely different.

Rules change all the time, do we throw out the history when new rules come in?

We embrace the changes and adapt, which is precisely what Corbett did.

I'm sure he did, but did he do anything new or just rediscover something.

If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.

Issac Newton

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/corbett.html

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I thought the innovator means means to invent, create, not copy.

Quite so, D4.

This is why I picked Corbett, who is widely accredited with having had a tremendous influence on modern boxing style, and is also credited with having invented the left hook as we know it today.

Probably right, but do you think that was just down to him being more well know than Mendoza.

I doubt his contribution but Mendoza contributed far more to change boxing than Corbett and brought in many mainstream defensive technique that are the foundation of the sport and should be called the father/grandfather of modern boxing.

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I thought the innovator means means to invent, create, not copy.

Quite so, D4.

This is why I picked Corbett, who is widely accredited with having had a tremendous influence on modern boxing style, and is also credited with having invented the left hook as we know it today.

Probably right, but do you think that was just down to him being more well know than Mendoza.

I doubt his contribution but Mendoza contributed far more to change boxing than Corbett and brought in many mainstream defensive technique that are the foundation of the sport and should be called the father/grandfather of modern boxing.

Why should Mendoza and Corbett be mutually exclusive ?

There is overwhelming evidence that Corbett was a true innovator, and the fact that Mendoza was also influential and innovative in no way diminishes Corbett's influence.

D4thincarnation wrote:Macario Flores, the inventor of the Bolo punch.

i thought Garcia was the inventor of that punch?

Something tells me you've recently read Mendozas wikipedia page especially calling him the father of modern techniques.

As for Flores, there's no real evidence to suggest he invented the Bolo punch

HumanWindmill wrote:http://coxscorner.tripod.com/corbett.html

Nice read, but many of the things credited to Corbett there Mendoza was doing 100 years earlier. Mendoza also wrote a book and opened and boxing academy, and his style was taught far and wide.

Calling bare knuckle boxers just no holds bars boxers does a disservice to boxers like Mendoza and Richmond who were every bit as technical and innovating as anyone in the sport.

http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Mendoza/

See what you think

eddyfightfan wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Macario Flores, the inventor of the Bolo punch.

i thought Garcia was the inventor of that punch?

Flores used it first, Garcia just made the punch well known.

eddyfightfan wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Macario Flores, the inventor of the Bolo punch.

i thought Garcia was the inventor of that punch?

It's a bone of contention, Eddy. Some say Garcia, others say it wasn't invented propetly until Kid Gavilan began using it, some (D4 as an example) point to Flores, while some others attribute it to Ike Weir, the Irish Featherweight champion of the 1890s. I doubt a unanimous verdict will ever be reached on that front.

imperialghosty wrote:Something tells me you've recently read Mendozas wikipedia page especially calling him the father of modern techniques.

As for Flores, there's no real evidence to suggest he invented the Bolo punch

Except for the fact he was the first to use it, and it was written about in the press.

D4thincarnation wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:Something tells me you've recently read Mendozas wikipedia page especially calling him the father of modern techniques.

As for Flores, there's no real evidence to suggest he invented the Bolo punch

Except for the fact he was the first to use it, and it was written about in the press.

Except for the fact he wasn't the first to use it

D4thincarnation wrote:Mendoza also wrote a book and opened and boxing academy, and his style was taught far and wide.

Obviously not far and wide enough, or Corbett's contemporaries would have been fighting in that style.

They weren't.

Jem Mace, Britain’s great bare-knuckle champion called Corbett “… the most scientific boxer …” he had ever seen (see Durant 1976 pp 38 39).

D4thincarnation wrote:Except for the fact he was the first to use it, and it was written about in the press.

I believe somebody submitted a comment to this thread along the lines of :

" Just because somebody says it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. "

I'll have to read the thread again to see who it was. Sounds like the sort of chap who likes to keep an open mind.

azania wrote:

Afternoon, az.

This one's for you too, mate. The innovators don't necessarily need to be drawn from the pre Red Bull, Shredded Wheat and creosote, ( or whatever that stuff is called, ) days.

Dig in, and enjoy.

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Except for the fact he was the first to use it, and it was written about in the press.

I believe somebody submitted a comment to this thread along the lines of :

" Just because somebody says it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. "

I'll have to read the thread again to see who it was. Sounds like the sort of chap who likes to keep an open mind.

Point being, he used it and it was covered by the press and that was the earliest on record. Now there might be some other boxer that used it earlier but was never reported, but since that can never be proved why discuss might bes and just go on what we know.

D4thincarnation wrote:Point being, he used it and it was covered by the press and that was the earliest on record. Now there might be some other boxer that used it earlier but was never reported, but since that can never be proved why discuss might bes and just go on what we know.

How, pray, could it not have been reported if MANY people believe Weir to have been the first to use it ?

http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=3320

Think Weir came a fair time before Flores if i'm not mistaken

ill take the line of we'll never know- seems the safest option

imperialghosty wrote:http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=3320

Think Weir came a fair time before Flores if i'm not mistaken

That and "exaggerated bolo punch", swinging your arm round, ala SRL or Apollo Creed.

eddyfightfan wrote:ill take the line of we'll never know- seems the safest option

Don't be such a damned spoilsport, eddy. Say Ali invented it, and watch the feathers fly.

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Point being, he used it and it was covered by the press and that was the earliest on record. Now there might be some other boxer that used it earlier but was never reported, but since that can never be proved why discuss might bes and just go on what we know.

How, pray, could it not have been reported if MANY people believe Weir to have been the first to use it ?

Not the same punch

D4thincarnation wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=3320

Think Weir came a fair time before Flores if i'm not mistaken

That and "exaggerated bolo punch", swinging your arm round, ala SRL or Apollo Creed.

You what?

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Point being, he used it and it was covered by the press and that was the earliest on record. Now there might be some other boxer that used it earlier but was never reported, but since that can never be proved why discuss might bes and just go on what we know.

How, pray, could it not have been reported if MANY people believe Weir to have been the first to use it ?

Not the same punch

I see.

imperialghosty wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=3320

Think Weir came a fair time before Flores if i'm not mistaken

That and "exaggerated bolo punch", swinging your arm round, ala SRL or Apollo Creed.

You what?

It's easy, Ghosty.

Flores' left foot formed a 37 degree angle with the north west ring post when he did it. Weir was facing south east, and his left foot was pointing to an attractive woman sitting in the third row with a red hat on.

Different punch altogether. Do keep up.

I forgot how it works on here Windy

I always give the benefit of the doubt to Garcia anyway for the Bolo Punch but always fun to pinpoint an earlier example

Exaggerated Bolo Punch=Showboating
Bolo Punch= an actual useful punch that can do some damage

Don't confuse the two.

Oh my good god your scraping the barrel now, seeing as neither of us saw Weir of Flores nor is there any actual reports of either using the Bolo punch find it hard to see how you've come to that conclusion.

imperialghosty wrote:I forgot how it works on here Windy

I always give the benefit of the doubt to Garcia anyway for the Bolo Punch but always fun to pinpoint an earlier example

Ay, welcome to the Twilight Zone.

Personally, I thought Mendoza invented the bolo punch. He is, after all, the grandfather of modern boxing.

Bet he was one sixteenth Filipino.

Pancho Villa, maybe the first boxer to go to a neutral corner when he knocked down his opponent. He didn't do this because of the rule, it had not been brought in as yet, but out of sportsmanship and respect for his fellow boxer.

He must be part Filipino otherwise the world has turned on its head