Revolutionaries and innovators

First topic message reminder :

Throughout its history, boxing has produced many colourful characters, a rich array of different boxing styles, and several fights of seminal importance, both in the sporting sense and also in the socioligical. It has also produced quite a few fighters of whom it could be said that they genuinely changed the course of boxing, prompting the rewriting of the text book and / or spawning generations of imitators. Whom, then, do we regard as having been the genuine revolutionaries ?

I'll start the ball rolling with a couple of heavyweights.

James J Corbett is often regarded as having been the father of modern boxing. During the transition between the bareknuckle and Queensbury eras Corbett was the pioneer of movement, speed and skill. Sadly, the surviving film, ( the Fitzsimmons fight and an exhibition, ) is almost unwatchable, but eyewitness and newspaper accounts are unanimous in saying that he was a revelation. He is also credited with having invented the left hook as we know it today. Legend has it that Corbett broke his thumb during a bout, and in order to protect the thumb while still being able to punch with the left hand he improvised on the spot, turning what had erstwhile been a swinging punch into the short hook that we know today. His movement, jabbing technique and some of his defensive ploys hugely influenced Jack Johnson and when, at nearly sixty years old, he sparred an exhibition with Gene Tunney the young Tunney - often dismissive of the ' old school ' style - announced that he had learned a great deal from the old master.

A true revolutionary, as was my next pick, Jack Dempsey.

By the time Dempsey blitzed Willard to take the crown in 1919 the heavyweight division had already seen some great fighters. The immensely strong and heavy hitting Sullivan ; Corbett ; Fitzsimmons, the cunning and crafty tactician with a thunderous punch ; Jeffries, a bear of a man who was almost impossible to hurt, sported a strange, crouching style, and carried a wallop which could put the strongest man to sleep, and the brilliant Johnson, who made an art form of ' catching ' punches, possessed wonderful technique and probably the best uppercut in heavyweight history until Tyson and Lewis came along.

Dempsey was the first to combine elements of all of these and merge them together. Speed, tremendous punching power, cunning, under rated footwork, ( in my opinion, ) a consistent and effective bob and weave, topped off by his insatiable aggression and will to win, all came together to produce a style which would influence generations to come, all the way through to Duran and Tyson. Such was the freshness of Dempsey's style that he was able to capture the imaginations of the masses and almost single handedly establish boxing as the mainstream sport it became.

Whatever our opinions of Corbett and Dempsey, there surely could be no doubt that they were true innovators and pioneers who changed the course of boxing techniques and styles, helping to shape them into what we see today. There are many others, so which fighters would you fellas pick as the true revolutionaries ?

imperialghosty wrote:Oh my good god your scraping the barrel now, seeing as neither of us saw Weir of Flores nor is there any actual reports of either using the Bolo punch find it hard to see how you've come to that conclusion.

Yes they are reports, the reports say Flores was the first to use the Bolo punch.

Anyway, moving on.

Who else, in addition to those already mentioned, has had a profound influence on boxing style and development ?

HumanWindmill wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:ill take the line of we'll never know- seems the safest option

Don't be such a damned spoilsport, eddy. Say Ali invented it, and watch the feathers fly.

ali also invented the jab, straight, hook (left and right), uppercut (left only) and also drinking water in between rounds

HumanWindmill wrote:Anyway, moving on.

Who else, in addition to those already mentioned, has had a profound influence on boxing style and development ?

Charles, had the shoulder roll thing going on.

Can you provide these reports because i've already proven that Weir was recorded as the first to use it

eddyfightfan wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:ill take the line of we'll never know- seems the safest option

Don't be such a damned spoilsport, eddy. Say Ali invented it, and watch the feathers fly.

ali also invented the jab, straight, hook (left and right), uppercut (left only) and also drinking water in between rounds

Haha !

Nice one, mate.

imperialghosty wrote:Can you provide these reports because i've already proven that Weir was recorded as the first to use it

Exaggerated Bolo, what don't you understand about that. Have you read your own link?

Any Bolo punch is an exaggerated swinging movement of one arm

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Anyway, moving on.

Who else, in addition to those already mentioned, has had a profound influence on boxing style and development ?

Charles, had the shoulder roll thing going on.

D4, friendly word to the wise.

If you try it on with the Floyd stuff I'll delete your posts. We're getting some interesting discussion here and I don't intend to let you hijack it and ruin it.

How do I know that that's what you're up to ? Because Charles was not the first to use the shoulder roll.

Back to the point of this good article anyway

Archie Moore must have been one of the first to use the cross defence

Kid McCoy and the corkscrew punch

imperialghosty wrote:Back to the point of this good article anyway

Archie Moore must have been one of the first to use the cross defence

Kid McCoy and the corkscrew punch

Great calls, Ghosty. Forgot all about McCoy.

Although not known for the defensive side of things, Moore did have a big influence on most parts of it especially the shoulder roll and rope a dope

ld timers invented the use of the face as the first point of defense. Probably trying to hurt their opponent's fists.

azania wrote:ld timers invented the use of the face as the first point of defense. Probably trying to hurt their opponent's fists.

No, az, it's just that that was all the new guys were capable of learning from the poorest of the old fighters. Too much time with their nutritionists and not enough time in the ring to learn the good stuff.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:ld timers invented the use of the face as the first point of defense. Probably trying to hurt their opponent's fists.

No, az, it's just that that was all the new guys were capable of learning from the poorest of the old fighters. Too much time with their nutritionists and not enough time in the ring to learn the good stuff.

There is no point sending a kid to university if he hasn't passed his 11+, GCSE and A Levels. Most of the learning is done in the school (gym).

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:ld timers invented the use of the face as the first point of defense. Probably trying to hurt their opponent's fists.

No, az, it's just that that was all the new guys were capable of learning from the poorest of the old fighters. Too much time with their nutritionists and not enough time in the ring to learn the good stuff.

There is no point sending a kid to university if he hasn't passed his 11+, GCSE and A Levels. Most of the learning is done in the school (gym).

By the look of most of today's heavies I'd say they've never set foot in a gym in their lives.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:ld timers invented the use of the face as the first point of defense. Probably trying to hurt their opponent's fists.

No, az, it's just that that was all the new guys were capable of learning from the poorest of the old fighters. Too much time with their nutritionists and not enough time in the ring to learn the good stuff.

There is no point sending a kid to university if he hasn't passed his 11+, GCSE and A Levels. Most of the learning is done in the school (gym).

By the look of most of today's heavies I'd say they've never set foot in a gym in their lives.

Or a nutritionist. But for every fat heavy I give you Galento. Too much jack daniel between rounds

I had high hopes when reading the title of this thread, and seeing that the OP usually forces the old grey matter a bit more than 'if Manny Floyd Calzaghe...' type stuff. Then I saw that the entire thread seems to have been undermined by...well, a numpty.

For my money (and possibly because I'm 3/4 of the way through his biography) I'd throw in jack Johnson. Broke the race barrier, played the role of a true 'sport' when his position required it, but also seems to have been a genuinely insightful man at a time when such was lacking. Coupled with the fact he was all about bringing tact and craftsmanship to the fore in preference to the sheer brute styling of many of his forebears and peers.

How about the D'Amato fighters and the peek a boo ? Slight modification on the old bob and weave.

It was different Windy, quite a limited technique in that you have to have speed to really utilise it

imperialghosty wrote:It was different Windy, quite a limited technique in that you have to have speed to really utilise it

Oh I agree, mate, but I have seen the odd fighter replicate it.

Surprised nobody has jumped in with Robinson, who was such a huge influence on so many who tried to emulate his moves. The early practitioners of the ' Philly ' style would also figure.

Would be interesting to trace a bloodline from Whitaker, through Locche and back as far as we can go, to see where that all started. My guess would be Young Griffo, but who knows ?

Thing with Robinson he was brilliant at everything but I wouldn't say he innovated to a huge degree

That's why I mentioned Moore, the cross defence and philly shell are fairly similar but have never been able to trace back the origins of either, notables would have to be Benton and Burley though.

imperialghosty wrote:Thing with Robinson he was brilliant at everything but I wouldn't say he innovated to a huge degree

Fair point.

Robinson cites Kid Chocolate as being one of his biggest influences. I don't know about you, but I've only seen a tiny bit of Kid Chocolate on film, and certainly not enough to make the connection. Little doubt, though, that both Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard were hugely influenced by, as well as inspired by, Robinson.

Fascinating article here, tracing the bloodline from Gans and Langford to Joe Louis, via Jack Blackburn :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/blackburn.html

A young Joe Gans, incidentally, is said to have pestered the life out of Bob Fitzsimmons in order to learn some of his tricks and apparently spent hour after hour trying to replicate the things Fitz passed on to him.

Never realised there was a connection between Williams and Louis before, interesting to read quite how green Louis was before Blackburn got to him, although a brilliant fighter you could tell with the methodical way he went about things how heavily trained he was.

Fitzsimmons has to be right up, one of the first real thinking men on the attack. Corbett had the defence whereas Fitz has the offence.

Not a huge influence but the Walcott Waltz must have influenced the Ali Shuffle.

imperialghosty wrote:Never realised there was a connection between Williams and Louis before, interesting to read quite how green Louis was before Blackburn got to him, although a brilliant fighter you could tell with the methodical way he went about things how heavily trained he was.

Fitzsimmons has to be right up, one of the first real thinking men on the attack. Corbett had the defence whereas Fitz has the offence.

Not a huge influence but the Walcott Waltz must have influenced the Ali Shuffle.

...and in turn the Pacquiao polka.

imperialghosty wrote:Not a huge influence but the Walcott Waltz must have influenced the Ali Shuffle.

I love the way Jersey Joe moves his shoulders in combination with that little shuffle. It's like seamless switch hitting. Incredible how he did it in one smooth motion.

BALTIMORA wrote:...and in turn the Pacquiao polka.

Don't YOU start, BALTI. I've got enough grey hair.

Jem Mace for the way he employed footwork and ring craft and lead a more "scientific" approach to pugilism in the days of London prizr ring rules.

Although did cost him the second Louis fight which wasn't the best tactic i've ever seen

Surely it was that guy from Enter the Dragon that perfected the Bolo punch. Killed a few of Han's guards, if memory serves.......

Lamotta must have been one of the early "bullies" in the ring, the way he hustled his opponents around with little more than toughness and strength. Were there many who did that previously?