Will Wales have achieved nothing unless they take the Grand Slam..?

It's great to have won four from for, even though all our performances have been error strewn, lucky, unlucky Tough and Easy..!

Have we improved though, if we have what have we achieved?

Some players are excelling others are not at their best, we have injuries and players rejoining after long injuries. I guess that even if we do win the Grandslam, improvement would only be judged by us beating Australia in the summer series.

I am proud that Wales have such a great squad, that they play such fantastic rugby, but after getting so close to a RWC final I want a little bit more now.

The players also want more, Gatland said that the players were down yesterday even after winning whereas in the not too distant past we would have made a lap of honour after a loss if we managed to keep the scoreline respectable.
The mindset of this current squad is in the right place.

winning the 6nations is enough for now.

I would say no.....but Wales need a big performance in the next game to seal the slam.

Wales just haven't clicked fully & I think that is what is frustrating for most welsh fans.

I think their level of performance has been in fits and starts & error strewn leaving you always feeling they haven't hit their potential.

I agree the acid test will be against Australia & consistent performances against them will put this welsh team on the map. Anything else will again leave an empty feeling.

Nope, they will have achieved loads and played really well.

Not at all. I think we'd all be devastated, but look how far Wales have come in a year. This time last year, we won 3 from 5 and finished 4th for the third year running. 18 months ago i was boring the pants off people on the old 606 by saying that the likes of Powell, JT, Bishop, Byrne and Ryan Jones were either not good enough or out of form. Gatland took his time, but he eventually showed faith in the kids, even though it was just 3 months before the WC for some!!
Wales could win a Grand Slam this year, but not win the championship next year, but could and probably will be a better more experienced team. We're building a great squad, with so many young players. These guys are going to be about for years to come.
I feel that European rugby isn't as strong as it has been in years past and there isn't a lot of difference between the top 4 nations. We could have easily have lost in Ireland, but as the cliche goes, once you're on a roll in the 6 nations momentum builds .
I think Wales will win the slam, but the next test for me, is to see Wales become ruthless. Just like England were 10 years ago. Not just winning. Really outing teams away. I think Wales will only get stronger, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to win championship year in year out.
The real challenge for Wales, if we consistently dominate the 6 nations will be challenging the tri nations, because I'm sure they watch a lot of 6 nations games and must laugh at some of the quality on display!

We've played well and deserve to be where we are, although you could slate controversy in nearly all our games thus far which is a downer. Also we haven't looked entirely convincing, failing to shut out games when we could have and at times playing cluelessly, which we're lucky not to have been punished for.

Against Ireland Bradley Davies should have seen red and Ferris' tackle on Ian Evans was never a penalty in retrospect. We should have converted more possession and territory into points first half.

Against Scotland we looked at times like we were running out of ideas, Hogg's try should have been given which would have made us sweat and when the Scots turned their minds to attack we couldn't do anything except barely manage to hold them out.

Against England the side definitely looked devoid of ideas, we saw what can happen if you can't take opportunities like those Wales recieved in the first 20 mins and again controversy over the try that never was, as well as North's slapping the ball into touch.

And finally against Italy the side looked like they took the term "ruthless" too literally, tried and failed all day to breach the Italian line when we could have broken them down with some kicks at goal first. Our breakdown was awful after having been very good in previous games, we didn't take Italy seriously enough in this area.

Underlying all this is terrible discipline, a card per game thus far.

That's the pessimistic side of things, one huge positive is we're at least winning these tight games (England at Twickenham, Ireland in Dublin) which we could have easily lost, probably would have lost in the past.

I wonder what you guys think about the various ways Wales could approach next weekend?

Realistically all we need to do is win by any means to take our third grandslam in seven years and leave Wales as fourth in the rankings.

Though I think some of us would like to see a decent match.

I am mid way, I dont want a win for wins sake game like Edinburgh last year. Though Wales vs Fiji in the 07 RWC was the opposite.

Our last GS play off with France was a real nail biter.

Can't wait but also this game hinges on the result of a lot of maturity in our squad...!

I don't think it really matters in the last game. You're almost certain of the championship. Doesn't really matter whether it's a grand slam or not. By far the most important thing is how you go next year. I'm sure you'd prefer two championship over a Grand Slam and a bottom 3 finish (again). Break the cycle

I went for a grandslam and one away win in Oz. A grandslam to prove without doubt we are currently the best team in the NH, no better way to do it than beating France in a semi-final rematch from the WC. If we don't, its a bit like England's, yes they won the championship, but people remember them losing the grandslam match rather than actually winning the championship. We will also have the old "You didn't beat France" held against us. We should be looking to make the Millennium a fortress and we should be beating France at home (France would have the same attitude against us, and so would the other leading nations).

One Test win down in Oz would do it for me, just to prove we can win away in the SH. It's allot to ask to beat Australia twice away from home, don't forget they beat the AB to win the Tri-Nations at home and also beat SA a few times, it's not going to be a walkover, which is why just one test win will show we are capable of beating the best away from home. No top test nation loses more than once at home in a series really, or shouldn't be, as proven with the AB's formidable home record. Wales win grandslam and one test in Oz will show that this side is a genuine contender to break into the top three and become a realistic contender also for the WC in 2015

The question demonstrates the Welsh psyche-all or nothing.There are shades of grey.
All we are lacking in the jigsaw is some nouse and confidence at half-back.If I could see some progress in this area I would be a happy chappie!
Agree that where the dice eventually falls in this 6N's is neither here nor there.It is how we go in the summer that will tell the tale.

Watching France this week I dont see much point in having this discussion. Wales should wipe the floor with them.

Wales have been easily the best side in this tournament. They played the best rugby of any of the NH teams in the world cup.

If they do blow it all theyve lost is the mocking battle with england over last year.

Wales should be happy to win this comp, doesn't matter too much whether it's a GS or not.

What you should be targetting is a win in Oz, you must back up these very good 6N's performances with similarly strong games against the Tri nations sides and Australia will be the perfect litmuss test.

I imagine Quade Cooper (if fit) can't wait to have all the monster Welsh backs running at him.

I find those ticking anything other than the last amazing.

What would the players and coach themselves tick?

C'mon people get in behind your team!

Emotion aside the tournament is over in terms of the winner.

The last round is technically for positions and a carrot for one team to gain bragging rights with a Grand Slam.

Its only in the 6N this seems to be important.

Would a World cup win with a pool loss be anything less than a World cup win? (Even though it hasn't happen yet)

Would a 3N being any more as a grand slam than not (NZ did it in 2010 and don't see that as superior to any won by SA or Oz in other years.

Would a 4-0 Lions or Bok tour be less of a series win than a 3-1?

Generally no. So a loss next week and a series win over Oz is 2 wins...no losses...technically.

But emotionally and all the celebration and moments that go with it..heck yeah.....

If we win this competition, GS or no GS, then I will be very pleased with the result. Remember, England only won 1 GS with their WC winning side so they are not easy to come about. Winning the Championship would be enough for this year, obviously I'd prefer a GS, but the important point is that we keep moving forward and challenge every year in the 6N from now on, no more 4th place finishes, and we go to the South this summer and win some matches. That will be progress. A GS is no use if we don't build on it.

if they lose they will fell like us england fans did last year- and it wasnt a good feeling despite winning!

its about it being the last game- they would have acheived something mind and still have the ability to improve but it wont sit to well

In my opinion Wales would be better trying to get a win against France rather than trying to go out for the Grand Slam. Win the game first, if you get the Grand Slam then count that as a bonus. Then you can look forward to the summer tour.

But with the way Wales have played so far in this tournament (granted 4 from 4) so far, they have not realy sparked. So like England today Wales will have to up their game if they want to beat France at home.

France on the other hand have not played that well themselves, but will be looking to spoil Wales chance of the Grand Slam.

So if i was in the Welsh team, i would just be looking to win first, think about the Grand Slam later.

not sure i follow maj!!

mystiroakey wrote:if they lose they will fell like us england fans did last year- and it wasnt a good feeling despite winning!

its about it being the last game- they would have acheived something mind and still have the ability to improve but it wont sit to well

Tend to agree there. The GS seems to 'rob' you of the moment of winning if its not the last match.

Eyes are already focussed on next week when the tournaments already been won. Then if Wales lose the match- like England last year, they'll have been robbed of the title winning moment. Odd position to be in...

majesticimperialman wrote:In my opinion Wales would be better trying to get a win against France rather than trying to go out for the Grand Slam. Win the game first, if you get the Grand Slam then count that as a bonus. Then you can look forward to the summer tour.

But with the way Wales have played so far in this tournament (granted 4 from 4) so far, they have not realy sparked. So like England today Wales will have to up their game if they want to beat France at home.

France on the other hand have not played that well themselves, but will be looking to spoil Wales chance of the Grand Slam.

So if i was in the Welsh team, i would just be looking to win first, think about the Grand Slam later.

Thats also true Maj, win matches and the results, rankings, whatever the carrot being dangled in front should come. Logistically simple, different in practice.

But even though Wales havnt really sparked, they are still the only unbeaten team- thats a key and important difference. they've underperformed, yet still won. France have under perfomed and nearly lost two.

Like most I was waiting for the real Wales to come out but they didn't- yet still won comfortably- champion teams do that.

Barring a complete disaster next week we have won the champilnship and the Grand slam will be a bonus. However, its only a stepping stone and real success this year has to be measured againstthe series in Aus. If we get a series win down under I will be happy even if we lose the slam match next week.

This young welsh backline needs to be a bit more streetwise if they are going to be really as good as we are hoping.

It's funny really, but I initially wanted Ireland and England to do something against France so they would maybe be disinterested next week, but now it's happened and I'm nervous about next weekend I think it's a bad thing as France will be more determined to end their campaign well. The fact we are in theory Six Nations winners will hopefully ease the pressure a bit, but I expect Saturday to be very nervy.

Work this week is going to drag very badly. I would be gutted for Wales not to go all the way now though, even though I didn't expect us to be in this position pre-tournament.

TycroesOsprey wrote:B
This young welsh backline needs to be a bit more streetwise if they are going to be really as good as we are hoping.

To be honest Tycroes, they looked very similar to the Blues sxv back line at times.

Very fast to move the ball, high risk, lots of mid field crashing. Mixed success with the odd clean breakthrough and/ or try mixed with lots of poor option taking, snatching at passes, 50/50 passes at pace, knock ons and the like.

The thing is its paying off sometimes and those are the risk of exposing the ball, at pace, to the elements. They're playing a largely SH style and its good to see things coming off.

Streetwise is correct...in our space teams like the crusaders have more of this. They bide their time with patience and timing their runs and although theyre capable of launching all out attacks or counter attacks, they apply the right pressure and choose the right time.

Presently Wales are prone to attacking with anything, relying on defensive weaknesses rather than creating the pressure to cause them.

Might not seem much in it but towards the end of a match the Saders and in turn the AB's are able to suffocate the opposition through controlling both the attack and defence, keeping them guessing as to whats going to happen next, and while theyre working it out, theyre usually scrambling backwards.

At this point I would say not winning doesn't matter with time to build for the next world cup but we seem to have most if the team sorted so now we need to start beating the S/H teams. A win in Aus is far more important than any of the 6n games. Unless we beat at least one of the bug three once a year we will still have no hope of ex glory.

The Grand Slam isn't important, results on the summer tour and in the AIs is what will have significant meaning.

True, and you'll be up against a team that plays a similar style, and has done for a good 30-40 years now. They will still probably be 'vulnerable' in the front row so a very interesting series coming up now that Wales are the confirmed NH top side.

I am glad it is the Aussies we are playing. They are a great team and we are struggling to beat them.

Though I would also say they are the side we are more likely to beat.

Grandslam/Championship or not this summer tour should be a fantastic series, injuries permitting.

Can't agree with many of you.
You can only get the Grand Slam if you beat France. And France are ranked higher. So don't worry about beating Aus yet. Get past another team that is ranked higher than you before you worry about beating an even higher team.

If you get a 20 point spanking then that's not going to help you spirit for later in the year is it so get past the first hurdle.

Taylorman wrote:
The last round is technically for positions and a carrot for one team to gain bragging rights with a Grand Slam.

Its only in the 6N this seems to be important.

Would a World cup win with a pool loss be anything less than a World cup win? (Even though it hasn't happen yet)

Taylor I know how excited Kiwis get over the Bledislow Cup and that is just a comp between NZ and Aussie. You also know what hype thereis if the ABs win a Euro Grand Slam.

To win 5 games (even 4 in the old days) is a huge thing to do. I am also compelled to remind people that Wales is (outside the PI's) the smallest nation in Rugby Union playing at such a high standard with 2,100,000 approx Welsh people living in Wales out of 3,000,000 (give or take a few 1000!!) although I am not sure how many of the remainder are egible to play for Wales. So I always feel Wales are punching abvoe their weight when we compete withthe big boys.

Guess the other thing which has happened now is England go 4th and France go 6th in the IRB rankings so if and when Wales beat France we will not get as many points. If England beat Ireland they would I imagine remain above Wales despite losing a game and Wales remaining undefeated, so the IRB poinst system is PANTS Not sour grapes either just does not make sense.

I wasn't around in 2005, and 2008, what was the general optimism in Wales like then?

In 2005 wales were coming out of a 17 year period of very little. We had previously lost generations of decent players to professional rugby and could barely form a team. The WRU still had its head in the glory of the successes of the 1960s and 70s.

The Grandslam was a massive achievement and a clear sign that the quality of rug Yvan Wales was rising, remember the autumn prior to 05 Wales had a great autumn series almost winning all three games against the SH.

The squad was small and injury after the lions tour took its toll we had little strength or depth. 06 and 07 Wales were very poor. We had an awful RWC, then Gatland took over and turned it around in 08. Great to win another GS and that meant we had an even and an odd year GS. (different Home and Away fixtures).

Injury again took its toll on the squad.

Wales have spent years trying to build the strength and depth back into the game that we once had thirty plus years ago.

We do look like we are getting there, we have plenty young talented players progressing through the regional academies and youth international teams ready for top honours. Probably more successfully than anyone else in the NH.

So by way of that explanation you reckon now is the time for wales to not only consolidate and keep on managing the depth of their players, but to kick on to greater things, in fact you beleive this is the best situation Wales have found themselves in for 30 years?

Yes I do.

What's happening behind the scenes in welsh youth rugby is great too loads of new initiatives.

There is a lot of common sense where there once was none. Devalution has helped too, Wales is in better control of their future.

Cheers, thanks. Perhaps I need to also change my expectation of wales then. For many years I have seen them as busy on the field but not really having enough to win, these days they have shown they can beat anyone at any given day, what lies ahead now for them is to prove they can win against the SH.

maestegmafia wrote:Yes I do.

What's happening behind the scenes in welsh youth rugby is great too loads of new initiatives.

There is a lot of common sense where there once was none. Devalution has helped too, Wales is in better control of their future.

Da iawn Maes, could not agree more.

One other thing that has happened according to friends back in Gogland is the fact that George North has impacted greatly on the youngsters of Ynys Mon, Gwynedd and N Wales in general which can only be a good thing. As a North Walian I have always been sad at the lack of scouting in this area and the loss to Welsh rugby (maybe).

Can one compare the Amateur days of Welsh rugby to what is happening now. I think not, but Wales have eventually caught up with the rest in the NH andif this momentum continues I do feel that the ultimate goal of ridding ourselves of 1953 could happen in the next 24 months. I can then remove my 1953 programme out of the frame it now sits and flog it on ebay or trademe!!

Bore Da Woods

I am proud of the respect and forward thinking in Welsh rugby. Good things are happening all over, the sooner we bring you lot out of the dark ages up there the better it is for all of us.

Wonderful to see the nippers supported by a full house in Colwyn Bay. That says a hell of a lot. Just need to get that region up there, I am sure it will happen within five years.

maestegmafia wrote: Devalution has helped too,

Yeah keep on devaluing those 6 nations titles

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

maestegmafia wrote: Devalution has helped too,

Yeah keep on devaluing those 6 nations titles

Devolution...!

Blwdi auto spell checker on iPad.

I think anything other than a GS will now be a dissapointment. Wales have worked hard to get into this position and just like those golfers who are able to do it on the last day when it matters Wales now need to step up and balance composure with power. The Ireland game aside Wales appear to have been weighed down a bit with the expectation and I've been a bit surprised by that. Teams have come to negate them and to some extent it has worked even though we have won the games. I don't see France coming to defend which will probably helps us. Wales needs a good performance here so that they can learn to live with the expectation. It shouldn't matter which french team turns up, we are good enough to beat them - End of.

Yes I agree Maes, some real good and proud rugby clubs in N Wales from Wrecsam to Pwlleli, Llangefni, Ffestiniog, Ruthin, Bethesda and I can go on. I can nothelp butthink there could have been some talent that has gonemissing through the years. Still that's history and you are right a region should be created for N Wales, enough stadia around to share the crowds and it can be only good for the game. The days when N Wales is partof the Scarlets is already anciet thinking. The WRU need to inject cash into what is a huge area with 1000's of players.

If Wales lose to France, they'll be gutted at the time, but can look back on a strong campaign, and look forward with confidence to th AI's. They've proved they can win well, win ugly, and win lucky - but above all win, and do so consistantly.
Not getting the GS is a shame, not a disaster.

you need to remember that the welsh game plan will come under more and more scrutiny as their wins pile up.

Astute coaches will look toward areas they can target and one was Preistalnd, I beleive the other obvious falw is Phillips' unwillingness to offload, that means good defensive strategies could be focused around those two players to starve the dangerous back line of ball.

I notice that no one has done that to Dan Carter despite the efforts of all. If Wales want to be in the same category then astute coaching in Wales will counter anything other nations coaches will come up with.

Phillips has been called slow for a few years now bt does a damn good job and is another forward on many occasions.

DAL DY DIR HOGIAU CYMRU

I am not talking about his clearing the ruck, I am talking about when he goes for a run, it is clear to me at least that he breaks the first tackle, then aims for the second defender whislt not looking around for support runners, at imes he saw the support runner but then went that yard too far and got tackled before he could offload.

The benefit of having a big half back such as Phillips is to gain advantage from him breaking the gainline, if the ball comes slowly defence have recovered.

I think Phillips rightly expects the backrow to be there with him on most occasions and some of the reasons Wales have suffered is that they have missed Warburton in these situations in addition to Falatau being well off the pace for me in this tournament - I would actually start with Ryan at 8 against France and have Charetris and Ian Evans in the boiler house - Ken Owens also needs to come back at 2. We're winning and not playing that well, it can't all be bad, more importantly I think we are aware of the fact that we are not performing

RubyGuby:

Spot on, our best game was against Ireland on their patch (look what happenned against England last year), played well against Scotland, not so well against England and worse against Italy. The first two games R Jones started (captain for the winning second half against Ireland and the whole game against Scotland) but played minor parts in the less impressive victories. For me the Italy game showed we missed his work rate Toby hit his first ruck in the 16th minute of the game and only hit 4 all game, he was too busy trying to do the glory running but Wales were being turned over while others were doing his job (may be coaching problem). The way Toby has been playing reminds me of Powell prior to the RWC i.e., not doing the basics! I agree R Jones should be 8 he controls the ball better at scrum time, stronger, better line out player, takes all the kick offs and more experience e.g., the Scotish try in not guarding the line.

Italy and England used a defensive gameplan to counter ours rather than trying to impress their own game plan on Wales.

France play more like Ireland and I imagine Saturday's match to be similar to the one we played in Dublin.

To be fair maes that is Englands gameplan, pressure the opposition and capitalise on their mistakes. they are a pretty negative team at heart.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:To be fair maes that is Englands gameplan, pressure the opposition and capitalise on their mistakes. they are a pretty negative team at heart.

Well three out of four teams say it works well for them...!

glamorganalun wrote:RubyGuby:

Spot on, our best game was against Ireland on their patch (look what happenned against England last year), played well against Scotland, not so well against England and worse against Italy. The first two games R Jones started (captain for the winning second half against Ireland and the whole game against Scotland) but played minor parts in the less impressive victories. For me the Italy game showed we missed his work rate Toby hit his first ruck in the 16th minute of the game and only hit 4 all game, he was too busy trying to do the glory running but Wales were being turned over while others were doing his job (may be coaching problem). The way Toby has been playing reminds me of Powell prior to the RWC i.e., not doing the basics! I agree R Jones should be 8 he controls the ball better at scrum time, stronger, better line out player, takes all the kick offs and more experience e.g., the Scotish try in not guarding the line.

Whilst I agree to an extent,Toby is our future.Picking yesterday man ahead of our future would simply turn us into England.Gatland needs to have a word with Toby,that is all.We need to build for the future.