Scotland Scrum

On of the disappointments for me this 6N has been Scotlands scrum. Barely held their own in any game. However the last few years for the first time since I can remember Scotland are not outweighed in the scrum - we now have the big strong men. Last year and the year before we did OK in the scrum IIRC

So - Front row whilst not being stars (apart from Ford) are adequate and have done well in the past pushing others around, the locks are huge strong men and the back row are not small - so why get shunted around this year?

My suspicion is that the locks somehow do not push their weight / hold the scrum together.

Anyone any thoughts? ( I was a back so have no idea what happens in the dark recesses )

The scrum has got worse as soon as Hamilton gets subbed and replaced by Kellock.

Chunk and Murray are past it I'm afraid, they've been going backwards for a couple of years. Cross is no better. We need Low and Welsh to get some time in the front row to see how they do. Agree about Kellock, he offers nothing in the scrum except some shouting. The sooner he's dropped from the 22 the better.

Scotland A scrum v Ireland was pretty tasty

Who was the Scotland A front row against Ireland, Welsh one of them I presume?

Yeah agree about Kellock. He did well this year against England when he was subbed on but apart from that I think he's been pretty absent, not one of Scotland's best performers in my mind and I'd rather Hamilton any day of the week.

I think the scrums been a problem for a couple of years now. Our last 3 games against France we've been dominated, I remember one pundit bigging up the Scottish scrum last year pre France match and i had no idea what he was on about. Then he was surprised when we were totally dominated so I think he was judging it on weight rather than previous matches/technique.

My opinion is our front row is the problem as well as the scrum coach. Scrum may be a small part of the game but it is so vital, I'd be interested to know how many points we have conceded due to our poor scrummaging the last few years, I think it would be somewhere in the 30-40 range.

Murray, Chunk... I think they're done. I agree with anti AR fans that Welsh and other uncapped front rowers should be getting a go.

Scotland A front row against England was:
1. Welsh 2. Hall 3. Kalman

bench front row:

16. MacArthur 17. Grant

Note all Glasgow players.
Note the glasgow scrum is still dominant with Al Kellock locking out behind tight head.

Note: It is the Scotland props that are pish, simples.

Robinson refuses to admit the evidence of his eyes, assuming he watches the Glasgow games, namely that the Glasgow props dominate their opponents whilst the Edinburgh props struggle to stay competitive.

If anyone still thinks it is Kellock's fault wait until Edinburgh play Toulouse with their mighty club second rows of Cox and Gilchrist. See who's fault the scrum collapse is then.

PS. I have it on very good authority that when the extended squad featuring Kalman and Welsh met prior to the 6N, it was the second 8 that bossed the first 8 in live scrum sessions, yet Robinson refused to pick the Welsh, even though he has played well at tight head for his last three games.

So you guys are saying its Chunk and Whoever on the other side are the weak links?

Definitely. Their club form at scrum time has been poor.
We are going to be taken apart on Saturday in the scrum. Jacobsen must be planning to take a tactical injury ealry doors before Castro desroys what is left of his interntational reputation.

think it is going to be a warm day (low 20's) and Chunk's fitness is terrible. With Murray on the bench he has to play the full game. He will be on his knees by the last quarter.
If he doesnt last then Cross will need to play 1 with an out of form Murray being taken apart by Lo Chicero, one of the most fearesome looseheads in Europe.
Bit by bit Robinson's refusal to blood new players has taken us to this point where we really are on the point of being humiliated by our nearest competitor in the 6N's.

From what I've seen on TV, when WP Nel joins Edinburgh I think Cross will struggle to get a game.

I don't care what anyone says, Kalman is not and will never be an international class prop, despite the problems we've had I'd take Murray and Cross any day (and Murray Low when fit).

Welsh on the other hand has hit really strong form, and in my view deserves now at least to be on the bench. But let's not get too carried away, he was awful last season, going back several notches and getting displaced by Ryan Grant (another who will be lucky to get recognition as an international quality prop), and he has only really come into his stride this season since the turn of the year. There's also a question as to whether he's a tighthead or a loosehead. This to me makes him a great option for the bench, but would you pick him ahead of Chunk when he hasn't recently played much at loosehead? The rationale is probably "Chunk is struggling therefore can Welsh be any worse". Not a fan of selecting international rugby players on that basis. My question would be which top quality tighthead has Welsh faced and dealt with for Glasgow. Not sure he's faced one yet.

Just adding some perspective. Robinson has made some awful selection blunders, but I don't think his selection of props has been as controversial as some of his other selections. Very few fans on here were unhappy at the Edinburgh trio starting the 6 Nations. I certainly didn't hear anyone calling for Welsh.

helping win one against Mike Ross and the Leinster scrum and giving him a torrid time for most scrums in the heinekin is quite good, dont you think?

People who dont pay attention to scrummaging probably thought the encumbents were still fine. However if you watched how Ediburgh's scrum was taken apart by a horribly out of form Racing Metro and dominated by Glasgow for the last 60 minutes of the Murrayfield leg of the 1872, may be you might have got some hints that all was not well.

I have certainly been calling for Welsh's inclusion from the start of the tournament. But maybe i am just being overly optomistic about Welsh's performances. Probably better to give Jacobsen, Cross and Murray another 10 or 15 games to confirm that they are gash.

I agree that it is a travesty that Ed Kalman has two caps and Welsh still has none. This was a deliberate ploy by Robinson, picking a journeyman for the bench who would not produce a performance to put pressure on his favourites.

Murray's match up against Healy was instructive. Two seasons ago it was Murray who taught the younger man a scrummaging lesson. This time the roles were reversed. Murray was totally dominated. If he cant hold his own in the scrum what is the point of Eaun Murray in the 22?

The scrum is where we are being badly beaten in the last quarter of matches. If we dont fix this problem then we wont win games.

FES

didnt you think that the scrum wouldnt be a major issue in the Ireland game? Do you think that being dominated up front for the last 20 did us any favours? Or did you think it was Al Kellock's fault for Murray being outplayed by Healy?

Cross is much better in the loose than kalman or Murray. Perhaps with the scrums being little more than a lottery AR thought it best not to bother with a fearsome front row. I'm clutching at straws to explain why Welsh has not been given a chance yet if only from the bench.

sensisball wrote:FES

didnt you think that the scrum wouldnt be a major issue in the Ireland game? Do you think that being dominated up front for the last 20 did us any favours? Or did you think it was Al Kellock's fault for Murray being outplayed by Healy?

I didn't think we'd struggle as badly as we did, and I was surprised at how awful Euan Murray was when he came on. Cross was if anything better as a scrummager. It's not as if Healy is a monster.

Don't get me wrong, I'd certainly have Welsh on my bench, all I'm saying is that I haven't seen a huge amount from him to suggest he'd be a marked improvement on what we already have. On form he deserves an opportunity certainly, and I don't think Murray deserves to be on the bench. He was beyond bad when he came on.

I did watch the Glasgow vs Leinster games. Can't say I noticed Welsh giving Ross a "torrid time" but my memory has been known to let me down. As a general comment Glasgow have scrummaged well this season, but credit there should also go to Cusack, who held the fort admirably in the early parts of the season. Hopefully next season Low and Welsh can be first choice. Both have the potential to be good options for Scotland.

TJ wrote:So you guys are saying its Chunk and Whoever on the other side are the weak links?

TJ, I don't think that's the case - we appeared to be going backwards at a much faster rate on the tighthead side Murray/Kellock than on the loosehead side Jacobsen/Gray, which is why the scrum was rotating clockwise

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Just adding some perspective. Robinson has made some awful selection blunders, but I don't think his selection of props has been as controversial as some of his other selections. Very few fans on here were unhappy at the Edinburgh trio starting the 6 Nations. I certainly didn't hear anyone calling for Welsh.

fES, agreed, no complaints over his prop selection, altho I would have had Welsh on the bench at least for the Ireland game - he's clearly in great form, has shown that he covers both sides equally well, and I struggle to understand why Scotland always feel we should be at the mercy of Murray's beliefs

I note that John Yapp of Cardiff and Wales who can also play both sides of the scrum has also been signed by the Gurners

When a scrum comes apart is generally on the tight side because the 3 is being targeted by the opposition hooker and 1.

It is to the defending team's advantage to wheel the scrum as it makes the harder for the opposition 8 to pick up the ball and the 9 to clear it from the base.

I expect italy to attack our tight head(s) to disrupt our ball and also go for the straight drive when close to our 22, looking for penalties for collapsing/ standing/ or slipping the binding.

Jacobsen is embarrassed at his team mates performance What about your own fatso ?

Quite.