Have Ireland been hard done by by referee's?

Last year Wales scored that illegal try to beat us. Against France we outscored them 3 tries to 1 but conceded an endless stream of penalties that Parra kicked over. This year the linesman bottled it with the Davies incident and then the ref awarded Wales a dubious penalty to win the game. A penalty which the citing panel seemed to suggest wasn't a foul at all. Against France we again outscored them in tries, but the penalty count was completely lobsided in their favour. Last year Ireland stayed quiet about their grievances. This year Kidney has spoken publicly about the Welsh incident and the penalty count against France. He said he spoke to Paddy O'Brien who admitted some of the French penalties shouldn't have been given and Ireland should have had a few more. Which is a fairly big admission, given that it ended up a drawn game and cost us a real chance to go for the title this year.

If you read the Irish posts on 606v2, they're correctly full of frustration with Ireland's performances, which have been below par. But there's relatively little talk about the decisions going against us. Given that poor refereeing has arguably cost us four 6 nations wins in two seasons and possibly two Championships, should we be complaining more loudly? Or do these decisions really even themselves out over time? They all seem to be going against us recently and I can't think of many strokes of luck or rubs of the green we've been getting in the last few years.

Swings and roundabouts Feckless... yes we haven't had the rub of the green lately with referees but I recall us beating England courtesy a shaggy Try where the ball looked to have touched the line before he hacked it on and ROG's cheeky try against the Boks. We had plenty of descisions go our way over the years.

You make your own luck and generally we've got what we've deserved.

If you compete at the breakdown, which is a key part of our game then you always run the risk of being penalised.

If we hadn't conceded the soft tries against Wales then the Ferris descision would have been irrelevent. We were too negative against France and tried to defend a lead.

There is a real problem with refereeing consistancy right now though.

No. No Ireland haven't

Not really, decisions even themselves out. Some unlucky calls but you've had lucky ones too, Healy could easily have been yellowed against France

I think, just my own persona view, that teams need to look to themselves more than the referee. The referee isn't something you can control, but you can control your own performance and adapt to how someone is officiaiting.

I said it a few weeks ago, I am impressed with the restraint you Irish have shown with some of the decsions that went against you, but then as rodders says, swings and round abouts, the wheel turns.

It still doesn't make it rgiht though, there are too many games won and lost on decisions.

rodders - agree with you that consistency is a major issue, has been for a fair few seasons now. Just not sure what can be done about it.

Well, the viewpoint from Wales is pretty clear. I disagree and think you were very unlucky and lost the Wales game due to a couple of dodgy calls. But it happens and over time these things tend to even out.

I think its more of the stranded of refereeing, its shocking these days. Iv given up getting frustrated with refs and thats from watching the championship up to international. It doesn't do my blood pressure any good.

Nope, in most games the best team will win any dodgy calls even out over time. We Irish are going to get a bad reputation if we go down the itching about refs route

I doubt that thomond, once the emotions die down after a game people see things more clearly.

I take our QF, there are more people willing to admit we were done by now than in the week just after the match.

Ireland have been hard done by on some penalty decisions, particularly the critical ones, like the last minute non-penalty from Wayne Barnes. Wales were lucky in that instance.

I'd read about the comments from Kidney about the IRB review of the French game and was quite surprised to see him comment on it publicly - he normally doesn't.

Ireland's penalty count has been up this 6N, and they need to look at reducing it no doubt.

Equally, as others have noted, Ireland have benefited from some decisions. The wildly offside and interference from Cian Healy being a notable example in the French game. Ireland were lucky in that instance.

C'est la vie.

I would say No Ireland have not been hard done by by the referee's decision.

No more than any other team any way.

Thing is, apparent reffing decisions have been deciding matches now for years, for me it's almost a part of the game, so I've simply stopped complaining too much about the decisions (occassional matches aside, but that's when the ref truly does have a shocker, so guess your QF falls into that).

The problem is the laws are too open to interpretation, so each ref could easily give any number of different decisions at the same point of play. Laws need to be simplified.

I wrote an article regarding refs recently, and that there isn't a team who has either got all the calls or none. Fans tend to think they are not getting the calls if they lose, but it's been a lot more fair if you really consider it.

Healy should've seen yellow V France!

The citing commision didn't rule it shouldn't have been a penalty, the ruled the punishment was sufficient and no more action needed taking.

And RE the comments of Paddy O Brian.. I find it highly dodgy that POB and Deccie are in the pub together, or even finding themselves in situations where they are discussing the refereeing etc... IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED!

I would say No Ireland have not been hard done by by the referee's decision.

No more than any other team any way.

I would say No Ireland have not been hard done by by the referee's decision.

No more than any other team any way.

When you talk QF's are you talking Wales Ireland????

thebluesmancometh wrote: Healy should've seen yellow V France!

The citing commision didn't rule it shouldn't have been a penalty, the ruled the punishment was sufficient and no more action needed taking.

And RE the comments of Paddy O Brian.. I find it highly dodgy that POB and Deccie are in the pub together, or even finding themselves in situations where they are discussing the refereeing etc... IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED!

Who said anything about a pub? The IRB - as a matter of policy - produce a review of the game and its refereeing.

Are you talking to me Bluesman?

Iyou are I am talking about SA

Feckless Rogue wrote:If you read the Irish posts on 606v2, they're correctly full of frustration with Ireland's performances, which have been below par. But there's relatively little talk about the decisions going against us.

Aye, lets keep it that way. Losers make excuses.

a) regarding decisions, you play the ref better than the other side. But sometimes we've just tried to push it too far and referees are gunning for us. We need to lose the reputation we now have.

b) The Scoreboard NEVER lies my friend.

We've a lot of admiration for lads like Quinlan and the great Munster packs of '06 and '08 who manipulated the breakdown laws wonderfully well. Well, we live by the sword so... if we're getting on the bad side of referees its OUR fault. No-one elses.

So this Irish fan says no talk of lost championships is going to fly. Except to say fair play England in 2011 and fair play Wales in 2012. If we're getting pinged its something our team needs to address.

Not convinced. In the Wales game, Ireland lost in large part because they kept kicking the ball to the Welsh backline (who had the space and time to repeatedly punish Ire) particularly in the last minute - they should have kept hold of the thing and played the clock. And the final tackle was just too risky and gave the ref an opprtunity to take a dim view - which he duly did. Against France your prop should have beed yellowed - game over. And if Fra had someone who could drop-goal they'd have won it.

It tends to even itself out.

Notch wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:If you read the Irish posts on 606v2, they're correctly full of frustration with Ireland's performances, which have been below par. But there's relatively little talk about the decisions going against us.

Aye, lets keep it that way. Losers make excuses.

a) regarding decisions, you play the ref better than the other side. But sometimes we've just tried to push it too far and referees are gunning for us. We need to lose the reputation we now have.

b) The Scoreboard NEVER lies my friend.

We've a lot of admiration for lads like Quinlan and the great Munster packs of '06 and '08 who manipulated the breakdown laws wonderfully well. Well, we live by the sword so... if we're getting on the bad side of referees its OUR fault. No-one elses.

So this Irish fan says no talk of lost championships is going to fly. Except to say fair play England in 2011 and fair play Wales in 2012. If we're getting pinged its something our team needs to address.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think, just my own persona view, that teams need to look to themselves more than the referee. The referee isn't something you can control, but you can control your own performance and adapt to how someone is officiaiting.

That's probably the best way to see it. We had such a passive defence against Wales, it kept putting them on the front foot. And the constant aimless kicking kept handing them the initiative. These things allowed the Welsh to do their thing and ultimately cost us far more points than the Ferris penalty.

Notch wrote:We've a lot of admiration for lads like Quinlan and the great Munster packs of '06 and '08 who manipulated the breakdown laws wonderfully well. Well, we live by the sword so... if we're getting on the bad side of referees its OUR fault

I do agree with that Notch. Playing the ref is a skill whether we like it or not. We were very good at it not so long ago. We don't seem to be as effective now. But Ireland have been awarded less penalties than anyone else too. Do we need to change our reputation?

Thomond wrote:We Irish are going to get a bad reputation if we go down the itching about refs route

That's what interests me now. Last year the Irish camp was fairly silent. This week Kidney and Foley have given politely delivered but more harshly worded statements about the refereeing. Kidney is well known as an absolute gent. Foley is a hugely respected figure in the European game. It'll be interesting to see if their statements will have any effect. I wonder will the "whinging" route get us more slack than the restrained silence?

Oh...

Not sure I saw that QF as bad as you did Billtong, but then I was sat back relaxed not caring about who won!

But Deccie didn't mention a report did he, I thought he had just refered to POB as saying they were hard done by. I find it hard to beleive that the IRB published a report that said 'unlucky you got nailed'

I personally don't think they did V France, I thought it was one of the better performances.

Yes I think Ireland have been hard done by some of the big decisions in this 6 Nations, and the last too. Some of them were unfortunate and some were just a terrible standard of officiating but they are not worth dwelling on. We need to fix the things we can fix and move on.

I do think it all evens out in the end. Over time. How long a time is debatible.

thebluesman,

...Not sure I saw the citing commissions report as you did but that has been discussed!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh...

Not sure I saw that QF as bad as you did Billtong, but then I was sat back relaxed not caring about who won!

But Deccie didn't mention a report did he, I thought he had just refered to POB as saying they were hard done by. I find it hard to beleive that the IRB published a report that said 'unlucky you got nailed'

I personally don't think they did V France, I thought it was one of the better performances.

He did reference a match review in an interview about the French game. "Kidney conceded only a need to "place on the record" that the International Rugby Board referee manager, Paddy O'Brien, had informed him a review of the France match showed errors in penalties either not awarded to the Irish or given to the French."

Notch wrote:
So this Irish fan says no talk of lost championships is going to fly. Except to say fair play England in 2011 and fair play Wales in 2012. If we're getting pinged its something our team needs to address.

That good grace is what I like about rugby. I liked it when it emerged Kidney had given Mallet some kind words after Ireland trounced Italy in the RWC that Mallet seemed genuinely appreciative of it. I liked it when Ireland beat England in '09 and at the final whistle when most English players were on their backsides, Borthwick went over to BOD to see if he was OK after some late English tackles. I liked it when Ireland ruined England's 1st match in Twickers after winning the RWC and Clive Woodward made a point of coming into the Irish dressing room to congratulate the team.

I love good grace in defeat and in victory. And I always try to be so gracious. But I'm sure you can all understand how difficult it can be when you're so disappointed and feel hard done by. That's what makes it so impressive.

I didn't write this article to crucify referee's or make excuses. I wrote it to see if anyone from the other nations thought we've genuinely been hard done by recently or if it's just me.

Nothing good ever comes from giving out to refs, the better team will win the game 90% of the time. We didn't deserve to beat Wales, anyone who thinks we did is an idiot. Got lucky in the French game, I haven't really been aggrieved by any penalties this 6N particularly at the breakdown

I dont think ireland have been any more hard done by referees than other teams that have been hard done by Irish referees.

I don't think Ireland have blamed the ref, but refs should be held accountable for their mistake. It's obvious that they are not all singing from the same hymn sheet and it's clear to me that most of them are so terrified of making such a huge error that they're afraid to apply the rules fully. For example, Davies was a clear red against Ireland, but Pearson seen Wales, tip tackle, red card, world cup, major controversy and just suggested the safe yellow to Barnes which tried to please both sides, Ireland got their justice and Wales could not say Davies was harshly treated. In other words, he bottled it. This happens too often, to every team, but just different circumstances. Refs and their assistants need to grow back bones. And I think saying that it evens itself out over time is another cop out. That's just another excuse and to some degree lets referees off the hook.

A lot of bad refereeing calls are just bad judgement in applying the Laws. Yes Davies should have been red carded and Ferris shouldn't have been penalised, but these are just interpretation. You win some you lose some.

However it's one thing knowing the Laws and interpreting them badly, and quite another to not know the Laws. That's why the Peter Allen / Kaplan decision was so ridiculous. Both of them watched the ball boy handing the ball to Rees, so the question of right or wrong ball was superfluous, (even though they got that wrong too).

So the vast majority of refereeing decisions should be accepted as rub of the green, but when the officials simply don't know the Laws then a side can justifiably feel hard done by.

Of course Ireland have been badly teated by refs - did you not see thierry Henry's handball?


Whats that?

Oh this is the rugby forum. Oops......

No Ireland have not been hard done by. For every decison Irish fans believe was wrong, their opponents will believe they were mistreated elsewhere.

Rather than blaming refs, perhaps try and understand why players who are so good in the HC seem shadows in the green of Ireland.

LondonTiger wrote:
Rather than blaming refs, perhaps try and understand why players who are so good in the HC seem shadows in the green of Ireland.

I agree about the refs. The Welsh have a reputation of complaining about the refs and I don't want to see Ireland go down that route. If we have issues with reffing decisions then Kidney should speak to the authorities in private and work things out from there.

But on this HC thing. Do you understand why the HC players are shadows of themselves in Green? Or is that just a topic you're suggesting the Irish should be more concerned about?

I think it might be down to the very fact of success at HC level, and the friction that develops between two European powerhouse sides and their disparate styles of play. I'm not saying this is the entire reason but I'd think allegiance to Provincial codes might keep the Ireland machine from operating as smoothly as it might do if, like in Wales, the Provinces weren't so successful and players were almost relieved to get into Irish shirts.

".....two European powerhouse sides......"??????

I have no idea SF - but your theory has a certain logic.

I watch Leinster pass the ball - and it is a thing of beauty. Yet at times Ireland have seemed stodgy.

Munster's sheer will to win is incredible. Yet Ireland fail to close out games from winning positions against Wales and France.

A puzzle.

MrsP wrote:

".....two European powerhouse sides......"??????

He meant to say four.

Pot Hale wrote:

MrsP wrote:

".....two European powerhouse sides......"??????

He meant to say four.

Ulster wins this year and they'll walk with Giants ...after crushing one or two of them along the way obviously!

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Notch wrote:
So this Irish fan says no talk of lost championships is going to fly. Except to say fair play England in 2011 and fair play Wales in 2012. If we're getting pinged its something our team needs to address.

That good grace is what I like about rugby. I liked it when it emerged Kidney had given Mallet some kind words after Ireland trounced Italy in the RWC that Mallet seemed genuinely appreciative of it. I liked it when Ireland beat England in '09 and at the final whistle when most English players were on their backsides, Borthwick went over to BOD to see if he was OK after some late English tackles. I liked it when Ireland ruined England's 1st match in Twickers after winning the RWC and Clive Woodward made a point of coming into the Irish dressing room to congratulate the team.

I love good grace in defeat and in victory. And I always try to be so gracious. But I'm sure you can all understand how difficult it can be when you're so disappointed and feel hard done by. That's what makes it so impressive.

I didn't write this article to crucify referee's or make excuses. I wrote it to see if anyone from the other nations thought we've genuinely been hard done by recently or if it's just me.

well said

I'm surprised about Kidney complaining about the referee........ I suspect that is a sign that he is feeling the pressure. Its pretty uncharacteristic of him.

The IRFU treat the 6N as their bread and butter and for the 3rd year running we have underperformed.

If we lose on Saturday I'd say Kidney is looking down the barrell and he knows it.

Feckless, great post, that good grace is one of the key characteristics we love about RU at its best. Losing hurts, but good grace can round things off properly.

OP: maybe, we all have our moments. England had the yellow card record a couple of 6Ns ago, 2009 ? England lost narrowly in Dublin (1 point) and HRH Tindall was carded off for scrambling along on all fours with the ball (not releasing acc to ref). That year the refs seemed particularly allergic to England 'infringements'. I'm glad it seems not to be our turn this year. Pray the ref does not decide the match for either side on Saturday for all our sakes.

Irrespective of whether we agree the referees have been impacting some Irish matches over the recent history, I have found Irish posters to be introspective and not blaming referees much at all.

roddersm wrote:I'm surprised about Kidney complaining about the referee........ I suspect that is a sign that he is feeling the pressure. Its pretty uncharacteristic of him.

The IRFU treat the 6N as their bread and butter and for the 3rd year running we have underperformed.

If we lose on Saturday I'd say Kidney is looking down the barrell and he knows it.

Rubbish rodders ... Ireland are not expected to win on Saturday.

No harder done by than any other nation - I bet fans of every nation could point to a number of glaring refereeing errors that they believe could have tilted the outcomes of matches in their favour. I'll give you a few Scottish examples: Barnes missing Contemponi's offside charge down of the DP dropgoal in the RWC; TMO's harsh call to deny Laidlaw what looked to me like a legitimate try against England in this year's 6Ns, and the forgetting to go back for the advantage; Poite's goof in our match vs Wales to disallow Hogg's try for a supposed knock-on, or Poite's missing Jenkins hand in the ruck just before half-time when he bobbled the ball just enough for Jacobsen to spill while picking up with the line at his mercy. To me, all glaring errors that could potentially have changed the outcome of various games, but to be honest we'll never know and nothing is going to change now.

If you do make that list tho, make another one that is your own players' glaring mistakes - I'll bet you that you'll find the second one is considerably longer

I'm with Foley on this:

Ireland have stepped up their criticism of referees by taking aim at the performance of Kiwi rookie Chris Pollock in last weekend's Six Nations victory over Scotland.

In a championship where Ireland have been dogged by perceived refereeing injustices, stand-in assistant coach Anthony Foley last night went on the offensive.

"You go to the line-out we lost," blasted Foley, "a clear penalty to us for pushing Jamie Heaslip in the back. Everybody can see it apart from the man standing with whistle in hand, and that cost us three points.

"Then you go to the Tommy Bowe try incident. If he's ruled that he is in the dead-ball area and off the field of play, then it's a scrum to us because he doesn't have to release the ball.

"But if it is deemed he is in the field of play, well then it should be a penalty to us, because he's been tackled and the tackler hasn't released him so he can place the ball. But yet we get penalised.

"I'm not looking for the 50-50 calls, just give us the clear and obvious ones and we'll be happy with that. We don't want to go around with 'victim' written on our forehead but it does get frustrating."

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:I'm surprised about Kidney complaining about the referee........ I suspect that is a sign that he is feeling the pressure. Its pretty uncharacteristic of him.

The IRFU treat the 6N as their bread and butter and for the 3rd year running we have underperformed.

If we lose on Saturday I'd say Kidney is looking down the barrell and he knows it.

Rubbish rodders ... Ireland are not expected to win on Saturday.

Well thank feic you're not the coach.

Sin é wrote:Ireland are not expected to win on Saturday.

Who doesn't expect Ireland to win tomorrow? Declan Kidney? Any of the players?

Who doesn't expect to win?

Against France some of the decisions were a little tough but Ireland were fortunate as well. O'Gara nearly took Beauxis's head off after the charged down drop goal and nothing was given which was fortunate as that penalty would have given France the game. Swings and round abouts, especially as the Irish pack consider the offside line to only apply to other people.

Sin é wrote:
Ireland are not expected to win on Saturday.

Against this England team? Yeah right, as long as your defensive line is good then England lack creation and should fail to break you down. Add to that the Irish pack will offer up no quick ball and England have only 1 tactical kicker in the team.