how do you fix a scrum mid match

I feel sorry for Tom Court in this one, our scrum wasn't great with Ross but we are being obliterated now. As captain and hooker what does Best do what does Kidney do.......?

The question should be what does Nigel do? The answer being open his eyes. If he keeps going in it's obvious cole isn't pushing straight

Basically Court should have gone down with an injury and then with uncontested scrums England's main weapon is negated.

maybe..... but there is no reaction or indignation from any of the Irish players suggesting they don't think so, just looked like they were being shunted with ease and gave up......

Well done England and congrats Wales

The Great Aukster wrote:Basically Court should have gone down with an injury and then with uncontested scrums England's main weapon is negated.

yep I was thinking that too, very undignified and unsporting but what else could they do?

The trouble for England is that they can't win games against the SH teams in the scrum. They need a back division.

Ireland just don't have the players to compete with big packs so a third place finish is a good result.

Really? Ireland have been one of the best European sides and were expected to win that. They are more than capable of holding their own.

The Great Aukster wrote:Basically Court should have gone down with an injury and then with uncontested scrums England's main weapon is negated.

Isn't that just the same as the bloodgate incident?

The Great Aukster wrote:The trouble for England is that they can't win games against the SH teams in the scrum. They need a back division.

Ireland just don't have the players to compete with big packs so a third place finish is a good result.

You mean SH team's like Australia...

The Great Aukster wrote:The trouble for England is that they can't win games against the SH teams in the scrum. They need a back division.


Ireland just don't have the players to compete with big packs so a third place finish is a good result.

Emmm, not trying to be cynical but thats how they won a world cup... against SH opposition.

Not sure I agree with you re lacking players. Certainly some poor individual performances today but as a team they looked rudderless and just couldn't get any go forward ball.

Never thought I'd see the day when an Irish pack would be utterly broken. Sorry in a way too, Ireland deserved better. Having said that it was a brutal display by a young England pack.

On a sour note I hope that the protest about the gouging was unfounded as it is to be unreservedly condemned. If an England player did do it he should never wear the jersey again.

nathan wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Basically Court should have gone down with an injury and then with uncontested scrums England's main weapon is negated.

Isn't that just the same as the bloodgate incident?

Well I for one am very glad we didn't take this route. Defeat is part of the game and there is a thing called Sporting Ethics.

Notch wrote:

nathan wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Basically Court should have gone down with an injury and then with uncontested scrums England's main weapon is negated.

Isn't that just the same as the bloodgate incident?

Well I for one am very glad we didn't take this route. Defeat is part of the game and there is a thing called Sporting Ethics.

no not the same but still a very unsporting and transparent tactic. The ref would have no choice but to take the props word and allow uncontested scrums......

The scrum is an important part of the game. Winning that battle has a a larger impact than just winning ball from scrums. However, it wasn't the only facet of the game in which England were on top.

I fail to see how some downgrade that part of the game.

I agree the scrum can sometimes be a beautiful thing to watch

[quote="SafeAsMilk"]The scrum is an important part of the game. Winning that battle has a a larger impact than just winning ball from scrums. However, it wasn't the only facet of the game in which England were on top.

I fail to see how some downgrade that part of the game.[/quote

it was pretty much even stevens at half time though. The turning point was the change in prop and the scrum. Its really hard to look past that and the impact it had on the team as a whole, so many mistakes and bad decision making, it was a total collapse. England really didn't have to try that hard afterwards.

Goosestepper wrote:
it was pretty much even stevens at half time though. The turning point was the change in prop and the scrum. Its really hard to look past that and the impact it had on the team as a whole, so many mistakes and bad decision making, it was a total collapse. England really didn't have to try that hard afterwards.

That's poor excuse making. Sort your scrum out and get strength in depth or at least have a decent back up.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:
it was pretty much even stevens at half time though. The turning point was the change in prop and the scrum. Its really hard to look past that and the impact it had on the team as a whole, so many mistakes and bad decision making, it was a total collapse. England really didn't have to try that hard afterwards.

That's poor excuse making. Sort your scrum out and get strength in depth or at least have a decent back up.

beg your pardon - excuse? Our scrum was mullered, end of game. England, correctly, identified a massive weakness and exploited it. If you take time to look at the OP you'll see the whole point of this thread is how to sort the scrum out. It hasn't been that bad or close to that bad in any other game this 6 nations

If someone in a white shirt is cited for gouging and found guilty, I suspect SL will have him out of the squad befoe he can get out of the reviewing bodies doors.

Goosestepper wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:
it was pretty much even stevens at half time though. The turning point was the change in prop and the scrum. Its really hard to look past that and the impact it had on the team as a whole, so many mistakes and bad decision making, it was a total collapse. England really didn't have to try that hard afterwards.

That's poor excuse making. Sort your scrum out and get strength in depth or at least have a decent back up.

beg your pardon - excuse? Our scrum was mullered, end of game. England, correctly, identified a massive weakness and exploited it. If you take time to look at the OP you'll see the whole point of this thread is how to sort the scrum out. It hasn't been that bad or close to that bad in any other game this 6 nations

Ah, ok. So you're saying your scrum didnt stand a chance anyway. My mistake. Sorry!

Don't want to pour more water on Ireland but we (Wales) were as dominant in the scrum as that against the Aussies last season but they still managed to beat us.

No game ever has to revolve around one area as today's did. The Irish simply didn't have an answer, they could have had one but on this occasion they let the heads drop and made too many silly errors to get back into it.

To answer the question, either teach the front row how to scrummage or develop a new one that can. Simple as.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:
it was pretty much even stevens at half time though. The turning point was the change in prop and the scrum. Its really hard to look past that and the impact it had on the team as a whole, so many mistakes and bad decision making, it was a total collapse. England really didn't have to try that hard afterwards.

That's poor excuse making. Sort your scrum out and get strength in depth or at least have a decent back up.

beg your pardon - excuse? Our scrum was mullered, end of game. England, correctly, identified a massive weakness and exploited it. If you take time to look at the OP you'll see the whole point of this thread is how to sort the scrum out. It hasn't been that bad or close to that bad in any other game this 6 nations

Ah, ok. So you're saying your scrum didnt stand a chance anyway. My mistake. Sorry!

no worries mate just worried you thought I was being a sore loser!

Goosestepper wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:
it was pretty much even stevens at half time though. The turning point was the change in prop and the scrum. Its really hard to look past that and the impact it had on the team as a whole, so many mistakes and bad decision making, it was a total collapse. England really didn't have to try that hard afterwards.

That's poor excuse making. Sort your scrum out and get strength in depth or at least have a decent back up.

beg your pardon - excuse? Our scrum was mullered, end of game. England, correctly, identified a massive weakness and exploited it. If you take time to look at the OP you'll see the whole point of this thread is how to sort the scrum out. It hasn't been that bad or close to that bad in any other game this 6 nations

Ah, ok. So you're saying your scrum didnt stand a chance anyway. My mistake. Sorry!

no worries mate just worried you thought I was being a sore loser!

No probs. Sorry if I jumped in and got called it wrong

Knowsit17 wrote:Don't want to pour more water on Ireland but we (Wales) were as dominant in the scrum as that against the Aussies last season but they still managed to beat us.

No game ever has to revolve around one area as today's did. The Irish simply didn't have an answer, they could have had one but on this occasion they let the heads drop and made too many silly errors to get back into it.

To answer the question, either teach the front row how to scrummage or develop a new one that can. Simple as.

we have "a" front row that can scrummage just fine. as soon as you take either Healy or Ross off we're screwd

Then develop strength in depth that can scrummage

Knowsit17 wrote:Then develop strength in depth that can scrummage

ok will do

I dont remeber an Ireland scrum get so dominated all game.

Although i wanted England to win, I just thought that Irelands scrum would be too strong for England.

Well done England on what was a fantastic game and a fantastic win for England, 4 wins out of 5 with a inexperienced team who have only been together for 6/8 weeks.

Well done England.

It wasn't just the prop. Second row behind him lost badly - really shouldn't have his shoulder near his prop's shoulderblade.

And in a game where the ball seemed to be a bar of soap, that really counted.

How do you fix mid-game? Change the second row.

(never did gather why Ross went off...)

majesticimperialman wrote:I dont remeber an Ireland scrum get so dominated all game.

Although i wanted England to win, I just thought that Irelands scrum would be too strong for England.

Well done England on what was a fantastic game and a fantastic win for England, 4 wins out of 5 with a inexperienced team who have only been together for 6/8 weeks.

Well done England.

yep great way for them to finish off the tournament. for the last couple of weeks the talk has been about issues with backs and their lack of attacking play. While thats still an issue I don't think anyone saw this coming

majesticimperialman wrote:I dont remeber an Ireland scrum get so dominated all game.

Although i wanted England to win, I just thought that Irelands scrum would be too strong for England.

Well done England on what was a fantastic game and a fantastic win for England, 4 wins out of 5 with a inexperienced team who have only been together for 6/8 weeks.

Well done England.

No don't think that would have made any diff. Court was getting turned in way too easy, it was like he wasn't even trying. Theres only so much the 2nd row or flanker can do

The props were getting zero help from the flankers. Time after time, on both sides the props arse would swing out. The flanker can help by shoving it back in. Might have papered over the cracks.

This was not Court's fault, he is not a tighthead but has been forced to play there by Kidney. Pretty much every Irish fan understands we are in big trouble if Ross has to go off, especially when a scrum is under any kind of pressure and we saw the result today. England completely destroyed Ireland's scrum after Ross departed and we had no answer. Am pretty sure Kidney said in interview as well that Ross was injured for 15mins before he was taken off. But anyway it was the scrum that was the deciding factor, not other areas of the park.

And Knowsit17, not sure i've ever seen any team dominated in the crum like that at international level, let alone Wales v Australia. When was this exactly?

LondonTiger wrote:The props were getting zero help from the flankers. Time after time, on both sides the props arse would swing out. The flanker can help by shoving it back in. Might have papered over the cracks.

Court was being turned in and over or under the hooker. Nothing the flanker can do really, if he exerts more pressure he's actually adding to the inward drive. Nigel Owen looked perplexed too, there was no obvious infringement, where normally so many penalties would have resulted in a yellow for the prop (ironically might have helped us as we would have had to go to uncontested scrums for 10 minutes!)

Don't get me wrong by the way it was Court's fault the srcums were awful, but not his fault because he is not a tighhead but being forced to play there if you know what I mean

which is why i felt sorry for him. Wonder if we would have been better off trying Healy at 3,couldn't have gone much worse

In other words it's Kidney's fault!

Bringing on Alain Rolland for Nigel Owens might have helped.

I started to to disagree with you there about Healy at 3, but then deleted what I had written. Truth is I don't know if that would have been better. But the point is we should have a specialist tighthead covering Ross. That should prob be Hagan.

If Kidney had the right ideas he prob should have insisted Hagan go to Connaucht (or elsewhere) where he'd be getting regular gametime in the Pro 12 and Heineken but he took the easy option, the cop out option. Either that or he should have had Hagan there even though he isn't starting regularly.

That last post was directed at Goose by the way!

And Knowsit17, not sure i've ever seen any team dominated in the crum like that at international level, let alone Wales v Australia. When was this exactly?

Autumn 2010 I think. We lost 16-25 but we absolutely obliterated the Aussies in the scrum.

Here's the video, from about 2 minutes in shows the dominance we had that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKRJy9ql0yQ

Knowsit17 wrote:

And Knowsit17, not sure i've ever seen any team dominated in the crum like that at international level, let alone Wales v Australia. When was this exactly?

Autumn 2010 I think. We lost 16-25 but we absolutely obliterated the Aussies in the scrum.
Here's the video, about 2 minutes in shows the dominance we had that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKRJy9ql0yQ

Blimey, you still lost by 9 points

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

And Knowsit17, not sure i've ever seen any team dominated in the crum like that at international level, let alone Wales v Australia. When was this exactly?

Autumn 2010 I think. We lost 16-25 but we absolutely obliterated the Aussies in the scrum.
Here's the video, about 2 minutes in shows the dominance we had that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKRJy9ql0yQ

Blimey, you still lost by 9 points

Exactly, just goes to show that the scrum, even when totally one-sided, doesn't need to be the focal point of the game. If every game went the direction of the scrum we'd have won that game at a canter. Thankfully though the game's more expansive than that or at least it can be.

Knowsit17 wrote:

And Knowsit17, not sure i've ever seen any team dominated in the crum like that at international level, let alone Wales v Australia. When was this exactly?

Autumn 2010 I think. We lost 16-25 but we absolutely obliterated the Aussies in the scrum.

Here's the video, from about 2 minutes in shows the dominance we had that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKRJy9ql0yQ

Ok Knowsit watched the whole video and I agree that is the Welsh scrum showed dominance but, it is nothing like we witnessed today. Today, if England got a scrum, they were so dominant that a penalty was guaranteed. Our scrum today was obliterated quite frankly.

Also, one other thing to note, perhaps you could say that the Australian team as a whole were alot better than the Welsh in general which made the scrum less significant. With two more evenly matched sides like today (England and Ireland) you could argue that scrum dominance will have more of an effect,

The fact that the scrum dominance was not as pronounced for Wales v Australia, and the fact that you are looking at a bigger gulf between the ability of teams, means that I don't really think your POV holds any real significance.

Ross was just as mullered as Court was and Healy wasn't much better. Ferris and O'Brien not pushing couldn't have helped either.

The scrum is only important in bad weather - lose it and lose the game.

Might have to agree to disagree then Irish, I saw the contents of that vid and today's dominance as pretty much the same personally, may or may not be the red-tinted specs coming into play

Maybe you're right about today's sides being more evenly matched. I thought things looked overall pretty even first half. Only after 50 mins did England really start pulling away.

Knowsit17 wrote:Might have to agree to disagree then Irish, I saw the contents of that vid and today's dominance as pretty much the same personally, may or may not be the red-tinted specs coming into play

Maybe you're right about today's sides being more evenly matched. I thought things looked overall pretty even first half. Only after 50 mins did England really start pulling away.

Fair enough Knowsit we can agree to disagree, but to be honest today watching Ireland I didn't want them to knock on as usual, however watching England I didn't want them to knock on either because I knew if we got a scrum, even if it was ours, we would lose it, that's how bad it was. I reallly don't think it was that bad for Aus against Wales. This coupled with the gulf in class argument for me makes it less significant. But at the end of the day is just my opinion

The trouble is in conditions like today's (very wet) they're going to be lots of knock-ons, therefore lots of scrums, and if you're getting battered in the scrum you don't stand much chance. There are ways of getting around it to a degree, one is to get your flankers to actually push, another is to get the ball out of the scrum asap when it's your put-in.

But basically if your props are getting as badly mullered as Ireland's were today (or as Australia's were against England in that WC QF in 07 for instance), you have to basically accept that every time it's the opponent's put in you'll concede a penalty or free-kick.

For Ireland in the second half, the best option would probably have been to put boot to ball...s of Dan Cole.

Even in the annihilation of Jelly Boy Dunning by Sheridan and co in 07, I don't remember a scrummaging performance as dominant as that one by an England side. OK, so Court is not a tighthead, and Healy is picked as much for his loose play as his scrummaging (although he's stood up well in the scrum in other games this season), but England had already got the edge before Ross went off - I seem to recall two against the head in the first 25 minutes or so, with the Irish scrum being under big pressure. Once Court had to come on in his less favoured position, it was simply good night.

I'm yet to watch the match again, but my (admittedly alcohol impaired) memory is that the Irish scrum was in trouble pretty much from the start. It's just that both sides were trying to play some 15 man rugby. It was only as the weather got wetter and wetter and the players were positively comical when on the ball (Croft's juggling act will live long in the memory!) that England turned to the scrum and the unfortunate Court...

Leinster in the HC final is an example of a scrum being fixed. However this was a case of needing to be revived.

D'Arcy had a mare. Every time I see him play he just looks so average.