England heading for a hooking crisis?

The news says that Hartley has been cited and could be facing a long ban (12-24 weeks) and potentially miss a good portion of the S.A. tour. To make matters worse, Rob Webber underwent shoulder surgery yesterday and it seems unlikely he’ll be fit for the tour. So potentially England are heading to play South Africa without our first or second choice hookers.

Have successive England managers created this problem themselves by returning to the old guard in Thompson and Mears? Or is it down to the well running dry? Who should have been given the opportunity?

Fit Options:

Lee Mears (39)
George Chuter (24 Caps)
David Paice (2 Caps)
Chris Brooker (0 Caps)
Joe Gray (0 Caps)

Jamie George(0 Caps)
Tom Lindsay (0 Caps)
Mike Haywood (0 Caps)
Darren Dawiduik (0 Caps)
Have I missed anyone? Not exactly inspiring at the moment is it?

What would you do? Go with the most experienced options, even though they have been found wanting in the past?

Say to hell with it? Give youth a chance! It worked with Dan Cole and Alex Corbisiero!

Pray that Hartley is available???

Recognise the fact that this England could be caught short in the future again if we don’t introduce new blood?


I’m not looking to debate the decision as to whether Hartley is/isn’t guilty, or whether Ferris role in it or anything like that, just looking at the potential implications for the tour to S.A.

Lindsay, George and Youngs to SA.....have faith in the youth marra.

The only problem could be if the likes of Cole etc are given the summer off...

Although theres always Joe Connor...

By the sounds of it you have answered your own questions

Yes we are looking in trouble.

Our best best might be that he isnt found guilty at all or that there is sufficient mitigation to get him available for the tour.

Yes we have made it worse by not blooding others.

Yes some of the others should perhaps have had earlier exposure.


Our progress in scrums is now in jeopardy as is our lineout.

Good luck to the boys in trying to establish any foothold without scrums and lineout parity!

Feeeeeeeeck!!!!

mears or chuter probably.

Triangulation wrote:By the sounds of it you have answered your own questions

Yes we are looking in trouble.

Our best best might be that he isnt found guilty at all or that there is sufficient mitigation to get him available for the tour.

Yes we have made it worse by not blooding others.

Yes some of the others should perhaps have had earlier exposure.


Our progress in scrums is now in jeopardy as is our lineout.

Good luck to the boys in trying to establish any foothold without scrums and lineout parity!

Feeeeeeeeck!!!!

Playing devils advocate mon ami, stirring up debate an' that.

cricketfan90 wrote:mears or chuter probably.

Oh dear god i hope not. Thats going backwards.

The youngsters are much better.

Mears if fit.

I think they will have to take someone like Chuter and two of the younger breed, probably Gray and George. Chuter should be given the specific remit of helping the young guys both technically and mentally in what it means to be be international hooker. Filling all three places with 'kids' would be a huge risk and may end up being counter productive unless there is a more experienced guy there to help them.

Worth bearing in mind that they will up against a beast of a hooker in B.Du Plessis and it would be sad to see some young guys ruined before they even get a chance! A lot depends on what props they take as well. If Cole and Corbisiero both tour then the management might be more inclined to give a younger hooker a chance, but if both props are inexperienced as well, then it could be carnage. I certainly wouldn't be taking Mears though. You could maybe get away with it in Australia, but doesn't scrum well enough for South Africa.

If all else fails, I am ready and available for a small(ish) fee. It is 6 years since I last donned the number 2 shirt, but it is like riding a bike, surely?!

I think Chuter may be retiring at the end of the season.

I'd say give on of the young guys a chance with Mears to come off the bench. I don't think it's that disastrous a situation – we need more depth in this position. There are plenty of candidates who lack experience, so this is a perfect opportunity to bring them on. I just hope they get the chance to play in a strong tream.

From another thread (https://www.606v2.com/t25865-england-sa-tour-2012):

formerly known as Sam wrote:I wouldn't take Ashton as he has played during the RWC and the 6N for 3 games or more in each and hence should be rested.

The hooker situation is going to be interesting. The options are; Mears and Chuter (both a bit old and past their best but loads of experience), Youngs and Lindsay (brilliant in the loose but lineout throwing could be an issue), Gray and Brooker (bright talents from Quins but with limited top level experience - HEC and not the most physical), Paice (never really international class but solid and reliable) and finally George (limited first team experience but has serious potential).

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam...

Mears and Chuter - Experience is essential...however I dont see the point in going back when the players dont offer the same as the inexperienced players.

Youngs and Lindsay - I would be very tempted to take both of these...

Gray - Too lightweight for international Rugby imo..

Brooker - havent seen him play so cant really comment.

Paice - That boat has sailed really i think. Better youngsters.

George - I would take him aswell.

My 3 hookers would be George, Lindsay and Youngs.

Inexperienced and slight questions over their throwing...but they are the future and what a place to be introduced...against the power that is SA.

I also think all three would excel on the hard grounds with their hard running combatative styles.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im an ambitious guy

Im just not sold on Gray. Its the same as Robson at SR...they might be playing well...but just think in SA we need power aswell as skills.....

Whilst Youngs isnt a massive guy either he plays it physically...and the other two do aswell...and all have good ball carrying abilities..which will be needed.

Baptism of fire most definately...but i really think they could be finds...

Especially with Corbs and Cole raising their games....

Although under your selection policy we wouldnt have Corbs or Cole would we?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Wow that's an ambitious selection. Youngs being the oldest at 25 and none have even had Saxons experience. I'd be tempted to take 4 hookers now that Hartley and Webber seem likely to miss out (I'd have rested Hartley anyway). I'd go with Brooker and Gray from Quins and then select one of Youngs and George based on performance as well as taking one of the two experienced options (probably Mears). That would give the squad options and balance in my eyes. I'd wait to see the form though and maybe alter those options slightly depending on injuries and appearences.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im an ambitious guy

Im just not sold on Gray. Its the same as Robson at SR...they might be playing well...but just think in SA we need power aswell as skills.....

Whilst Youngs isnt a massive guy either he plays it physically...and the other two do aswell...and all have good ball carrying abilities..which will be needed.

Baptism of fire most definately...but i really think they could be finds...

Especially with Corbs and Cole raising their games....

Although under your selection policy we wouldnt have Corbs or Cole would we?

i have no problem with lee mears, very good player.

Mears was on the bench on Saturday so I think he would go.

I would take him and the two youngesters you think are the best.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I think they will have to take someone like Chuter and two of the younger breed, probably Gray and George. Chuter should be given the specific remit of helping the young guys both technically and mentally in what it means to be be international hooker. Filling all three places with 'kids' would be a huge risk and may end up being counter productive unless there is a more experienced guy there to help them.

Worth bearing in mind that they will up against a beast of a hooker in B.Du Plessis and it would be sad to see some young guys ruined before they even get a chance! A lot depends on what props they take as well. If Cole and Corbisiero both tour then the management might be more inclined to give a younger hooker a chance, but if both props are inexperienced as well, then it could be carnage. I certainly wouldn't be taking Mears though. You could maybe get away with it in Australia, but doesn't scrum well enough for South Africa.

If all else fails, I am ready and available for a small(ish) fee. It is 6 years since I last donned the number 2 shirt, but it is like riding a bike, surely?!

That is my worry, S.A. are strong and set piece orientated. I fear Mears' old limitations will come back to haunt him (remember the Lions tour). Being cynical, I wish we were touring Australia so that that the set piece (line out aside) might not be under so much pressure.

HQ matt wrote:i have no problem with lee mears, very good player.

Biltongbek where are you? Give us your thoughts please..

Given that SA's illegal scrum tactic seems to be to get under the opponent's front rom and drive them illegally and dangerously i.e vertically straight up through the roof of the scrum -

Mears at 4' nothing might be perfect?!

Cumbrian wrote:
That is my worry, S.A. are strong and set piece orientated. I fear Mears' old limitations will come back to haunt him (remember the Lions tour). Being cynical, I wish we were touring Australia so that that the set piece (line out aside) might not be under so much pressure.

If they do take Mears with the intention of him being the test hooker, then I hope they take Corbisiero and Cole as well. They may just get away with somewhere close to parity in that case. If they had a front row of, for example, Marler/Mears/Stevens then they will be in a world of trouble. Jannie Du Plessis can be 'got at' come scrum time, but not if his opposite loosehead is spending half his energy in compensating for a poor scrummaging hooker, and especially if the loosehead is someone like Marler who has his own issues come scrum time.

Why wouldn't Cole and Corbisiero go ? - they must be certainties

geoff998rugby wrote:Why wouldn't Cole and Corbisiero go ? - they must be certainties

They probably are, I was just speculating in case they are given a 'rest'.

geoff998rugby wrote:Why wouldn't Cole and Corbisiero go ? - they must be certainties

It's from a debate on a different thread, some posters think that the guys who played in the World Cup and Six nations should be rested because of burn-out.

Isn't all this speculation based on a presumption that Hartley is going to be found guilty?

It might always come down to verbal testimonies...

If it comes down to verbal testimonies how is Hartley going to talk with a handful of fingers in his mouth

Please...

Mears and Chuter should not be considered. Mears is too small...the same as Quins Gray...and Chuter is not performing remotely as an international hooker is expected.

If it really is such a problem ...then i hope hartley is available...even if he has had no gametime....

Of the youngsers...

George and Lindsay are big boys...but offer huge ball carrying ability...and Youngs who is of smaller stature but very physical in his game...and also has a very strong ball carrying game.

Even if Cole and Corbs are rested....

We could go to SA with

1 Mullan
2 George / Youngs/ Lindsay
3 Doran Jones

and would still have a strong frotn row...with yet more players gaining experience against one of the powers of world rugby.

It is a rather speculative thread. But I think it has relevance even if Hartley is cleared to play, due to the relative mediocrity/ lack of experience of the back up options.

To be fair we had one before Webber got injured and Hartley potentialy banned.

Chuter isnt even up to club rugby standard anymore. Mears' goose was cooked like time he went to SA when he was 3 years younger and at the top of his game.
It would be very unLancaster to take either of them.

Very wise use of wording in the title. It ensures that the topic doesn't catch the attention of the tabloids.

I'd take 4 hookers, one oldie of Chuter or Mears as a mentor and stable option, 2 of the current first team AP stylers like Gray, Brooker, Paice Dawiduk and then one of the up and comers Youngs, Hayward, Lindsay and George. That way we have experience, potential and reliable first teamers all in the squad.

I think Chuter may be retiring at the end of the season

He has another year on his Tigers contract so it's more likely to be at the end of next season with Tom Youngs likely to take over his starting shirt. The 25 year old is a converted England under 20 IC (JTH style) but didn't have the passing game to make it at Tigers first team so current SA coach Meyer converted him to hooker believing his stature (under 6ft) and size (adding some front row weight now over 16st) could be international class desruction ball in hand and at the scrum (he's looked excellent in both areas so far). He's aggressive and a passionate Tigers which makes him Chuter's idea replacement once his lineout skills have been sufficiently sharpened, has been hampered this season with a back op but is back now and will be used off the bench during the run in to the end of the season.

It's from a debate on a different thread, some posters think that the guys who played in the World Cup and Six nations should be rested because of burn-out

Given that a number of England internationals missed the sizeable rest period and pre season they normally have before a normal rugby season I think it would be prudent to rest those players who played 3 or more games at the RWC and in the 6N. This would be Corbs, Hartley, Cole, Croft, Youngs, Manu, Ashton and Foden.

SecretFly wrote:Very wise use of wording in the title. It ensures that the topic doesn't catch the attention of the tabloids.

Thanks for noticing.

If Hartley and Webber do end up unavailable for various reasons, then I would take David Paice as one of the hookers. He is experienced and an abrasive character which is going to be needed in South Africa.

Sam,

Id agree there needs to be some player management. Coles workload has been immense over the last year. At least he wont have to worry about the HC knock out rounds though. Manu the same to a lesser extent.
Youngs has had a couple of layoffs and played a lot of games from the bench, I dont see huim being such a problem. Same for Hartley, and he may get an extended break here as well. Ashton cant be that tired from standing around doing nothing but looks like he needs some time out mentally.
its a fair thing to comment on, and standard practise for summer tours. Guys like Croft Cole and Tuilagi have a very high chance of going on the lions tour, england may not have the option to give them a break in 2013, and wont want to in the summer of 2014 with the world cup only a year away.

So without that lot Sam...it "could" look something like...

1 Mullan
2 ? As per debate
3 Doran Jones
4 Botha
5 Parling
6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Morgan

9 Dickson
10 Farrell
11 Strettle
12 Barritt
13 JJ / Trinder / Lowe?
14 Sharples
15 Brown

Pretty much Geordie though on the hard ground of SA I'd go for Flood personally but either way that team still looks good. The only positions lacking first team players are really the positions we need other options to come through in anyway. Build competition and the number of players we know can stand up to international rugby.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So without that lot Sam...it "could" look something like...

1 Mullan
2 ? As per debate
3 Doran Jones

It's a decent enough team, but would Mullan and Doran Jones even get the nod, assuming Lancaster and Rowntree are still in charge? Marler and Stevens look to be the next in line if we go by the EPS squads and the fact Stevens is the incumbent substitute prop. Mullan is a better scrummager than Marler, likewise Doran Jones against Stevens, but I am not sure they would end up starting the first test.

Stevens is kept on the bench because he covers both sides. Mullan and PDJ both impressed in the Saxons game vs the Irish Wolfhounds where as Wood and Harden didn't so much against Scotland. It's true that Marler could well step in at loosehead over Mullan but I think Marler has been with the EPS mainly as an educational tool as Rowntree knows a thing or two about loosehead propping and wants to impart some scrummaging wisdom.

You certainly have a point Tino...

I wouldnt be happy with Stevens starting. Marler...well i could put up with that...but think Mullan is the better option at the moment.

As mentioned before its all speculation...which will be influenced by:

1) Who is given the top job.
2) Is Hartley available or not for the tour...

It's a shame Nick Wood got injured, he's been in the form of his career. Rupert Harden has been in the Saxons and might be worth looking at as cover for the tighthead.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Stevens is kept on the bench because he covers both sides. Mullan and PDJ both impressed in the Saxons game vs the Irish Wolfhounds where as Wood and Harden didn't so much against Scotland. It's true that Marler could well step in at loosehead over Mullan but I think Marler has been with the EPS mainly as an educational tool as Rowntree knows a thing or two about loosehead propping and wants to impart some scrummaging wisdom.

Fair points, although that is a generous assessment of Stevens loosehead play!

Joking aside, Mullan was impressive in the Saxons game (as was Garvey, and I hope he gets the chance to tour) and you would think that both him and Marler will have benefitted hugely from some sessions with Rowntree. Mullan has already played for the senior side and this could be the tour to really let him off the leash, with Marler there for the experience as well.

Doesn't Doran Jones cover both sides as well? I know he is primarily a tighthead but I am sure I have seen him play at 1 as well?

Yeah i would rather Doran Jones in the squad over Stevens if they continue to pick a guy who can play both sides.

I doubt they will rest Corbs as well as Cole ( if either) unless he has a niggly injury that requires surgery. Hes more in need of the experience than Cole is, and hasnt had anywhere near the workload over the last 3 years.
To go to SA without your entire first choice front row would be suicide.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:To go to SA without your entire first choice front row would be suicide.

Agreed. I hope they both go as they showed some promising signs of developing into a decent unit in the 6N. Cole will get some rest at the Tigers anyway with Castrogiovanni and Mulipola already there and Corbisiero will certainly not want a 'rest' having made the shirt his own this tournament. I really think Jannie Du Plessis can be considered one of the weak links in the South African scrum as well, and I would like to see if Corbisiero can get the nudge on him.

Mears is in the EPS so, under the squad rules he would tour surely. The Saxons back ups are Paice and Brooker.

Going 'down south' we need players with international experience, even if that is at Saxons level. Chucking in Gray, George or Lindsay would be bold, but possibly ruinous for both team and individuals.

Isn't Brooker rather injured at the moment?

EDIT: yep, he's out for the season with a royally buggered knee

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Mears is in the EPS so, under the squad rules he would tour surely. The Saxons back ups are Paice and Brooker.

Going 'down south' we need players with international experience, even if that is at Saxons level. Chucking in Gray, George or Lindsay would be bold, but possibly ruinous for both team and individuals.

The new EPS gets announced before the tour, hes only in the current one as a hangover form the world cup but I guess he will end up touring assuming Webber isnt available. To me though hes as much a worry as taking the Saxons guys. I cant see what use his experience will be other than to say " Ok if theheres a scrum bring on some welsh guys"

Could be a call for Paice, his only two other caps came on the post world cup tour due to every other hooker in the world being unavailable. Im sure his experience in getting hammered will be of value too.

I don't rate Hartley anyway so bonus imo!

Tigert,

I think he's played a part in us being quite robust and physical at the breakdown. Its a role he plays well for Saints...

I would like to see other options coming through...maybe why im pushing the other guys so much...but to be fair we cant argue about the front rows performance against Ireland.

And if we did tour SA with Corb, Hartley and Cole starting i would be a happy man.

Fair points, although that is a generous assessment of Stevens loosehead play!

It's also a generous assessment of his tighthead play.

Going 'down south' we need players with international experience, even if that is at Saxons level.

I'd take HEC level experience over Saxons. The likes of Gray, Brooker and Paice have all played in the big HEC games take two of those three, add one of the experienced options and take one of the lads with potential for some mid week action.

To go to SA without your entire first choice front row would be suicide

I'm not massively worried about the scrum to be honest, PDJ and Mullan are good enough to go up against Jannie Du Plesis and the Beast. The lineout will be a challenge but Kruger vs Parling will be close (thankfully no Matfield these days) but the breakdown was where we got spanked in the physicality stakes last time out. We need to tighten up the fringe defence and get a bit nasty (not Callum Clark nasty though).

I agree that chucking in some of the youngsters in on an SA tour seems like a suicidal trip, but they have to get a game at some point. It really depends on who you're going to expose and who you're going to pick to travel with them.

Lindsay, like Youngs was a converted centre I think. His throwing has been atrocious at times and throwing him into the fire at SA at this stage would concern me.

George on the other hand, has had a lot of tutelage from two superb SA hookers, and is of the size and dependability where I think he could handle a bench appearance. If he was anywhere other than Sarries he'd be first/bench choice.

Dawiduk is another good option. Very physical, good basics and carrying. He's come on hugely at Glaws recently and would probably push Lawson out of the first XV for me. Whether it may yet be a bit soon for him is a good question, perhaps we need to see how some fare on the back end of the season.

Paice looked good in the Baa Baa's game of 2011, but i'd rather take Chuter and a couple of youngsters than Paice. Not that he's too old, but development is going to be really important in this area. Same goes for Garvey and other over some older promise.

Sam - I agree with the HC experience point, but which of those guys should get selected above the Saxons back ups (accepting that Brooker is crocked)?

Dawidiuk is a good shout Chjwl - been quite impressed with him.

I think it will heavilly depend on form. Dawidiuk has impressed but so has Youngs. Gray I think is a talent as well. I'd leave it until the end of the season and see who is in form. Take 4 players as I've said above including an experienced option as well and see what happens in the pre tour training camp. There's some big games coming up that will tell us what the likes of Hayward, Gray, Youngs etc are made of.

Gray is 6'1" and 16 stone according to Quins Offy, which doesn't strike me as too small for international rugby. He only looks small because a) like Marler, he's more mobile than someone that size should be and b) he plays next to James Johnston, who's 22 stone.

Gray has been alternating with the unfortunate Brooker for Quins & Saxons this year so would seem to be next in line, and I think is worth a shot. His scrummaging and throwing are solid and he really adds something in the loose.

My guess is that, absent Hartley, Mears, Gray and one of George or Young will travel.

p.s. I don't know what Rowntree did to Marler in the training camp but in the one game he's played since coming back from England duty he looked pretty destructive against a decent Newcastle front row.

If it comes down to it, Soho's not too far from Twickers so they could probably pick up a good hooker quite easily, though make sure they play the ref correctly, because sometimes they can be dirty...