England heading for a hooking crisis?

First topic message reminder :

The news says that Hartley has been cited and could be facing a long ban (12-24 weeks) and potentially miss a good portion of the S.A. tour. To make matters worse, Rob Webber underwent shoulder surgery yesterday and it seems unlikely he’ll be fit for the tour. So potentially England are heading to play South Africa without our first or second choice hookers.

Have successive England managers created this problem themselves by returning to the old guard in Thompson and Mears? Or is it down to the well running dry? Who should have been given the opportunity?

Fit Options:

Lee Mears (39)
George Chuter (24 Caps)
David Paice (2 Caps)
Chris Brooker (0 Caps)
Joe Gray (0 Caps)

Jamie George(0 Caps)
Tom Lindsay (0 Caps)
Mike Haywood (0 Caps)
Darren Dawiduik (0 Caps)
Have I missed anyone? Not exactly inspiring at the moment is it?

What would you do? Go with the most experienced options, even though they have been found wanting in the past?

Say to hell with it? Give youth a chance! It worked with Dan Cole and Alex Corbisiero!

Pray that Hartley is available???

Recognise the fact that this England could be caught short in the future again if we don’t introduce new blood?


I’m not looking to debate the decision as to whether Hartley is/isn’t guilty, or whether Ferris role in it or anything like that, just looking at the potential implications for the tour to S.A.

Lindsay would worry me for England.
I'm sure his scrummaging would hold up, providing the rest of the front row was good enough.
His work around the park is excellent
But his lineout can be woeful.


As for replacement props, I'm all for PDJ.
I saw him play loosehead a couple of times last year (or maybe year before), and he was very impressive.
Obviously he's primarily a tighthead these days, but having those skills on the other side is handy.
I'd certainly rather have him as LH than Stevens who I haven't been impressed with on that side since he came back.

p.s. I don't know what Rowntree did to Marler in the training camp but in the one game he's played since coming back from England duty he looked pretty destructive against a decent Newcastle front row

Rowntree played as part of the most brutal front row the English pro era has seen. The ABC club were monsters in the scrum and as long as Marler knows to follow instructions I'm sure Rowntree will have equipped him with the technical know how and personal development targets to become a very good scrummager. Corbisiero has improved in that department since joining the England squad as well.

Just picking up from that point, can anyone remember how long it's been since players IMPROVED by training & playing for England?

Cos I can't. We used to hate players coming back as they were never in the same form & it took ages to get back to it

I think even if Hartley is not found to have committed any foul play, England absolutely have a problem at hooker. Because there is no back-up. Now, if Hartley is penalised, he could be out for 6 months, who is ready to step into the starting role?

Don't know the answer, but i's not Lindsay. Kid's a monster but his throwing

Well get someone else to throw

Or make every single throw a short/ easy one and stick Tom Croft at the front of the line out, he's unbelievable as a line-out forward.









Obviously I'm being a little tongue in cheek here.

formerly known as Sam wrote:[
Corbisiero has improved in that department since joining the England squad as well.

He sure has. He has gone from a young and competent scrummager to one who looks like he has the potential do some serious damage in the future. I guess Rowntree must take a huge amount of credit for that. He came out of the RWC with his coaching credentials intact as well which was no mean feat given the fall out from that campaign.

Corbisiero was up against Murray, Castrogiovanni, Jones, Mas and Ross/Court and to come out of that run (Tom Court aside) with your reputation enhanced is an impressive achievement. It was only Jones who got the nudge on him and he is probably the premier tighthead in world rugby so no shame there.

Just a small point. Jones was binding on the arm the whole time.

wickedwasp wrote:Just a small point. Jones was binding on the arm the whole time.

He was, but all good props will bind illegally if they can get away with it!

True!

Castro seemed to be making life very difficult for him early on but he didn't gave away the penalty so kudos for that. In Castro and Jones you have the two best tightheads in world rugby, he got off a little easy when Castro injured his ribs fairly early on but he stook at it well and even with the illegal binding of Jones it was Hartley not holding the pressure and standing up that did us in the scrum against the Welsh.

Not perfect but considering he is only 22 that is very good.

My guess is that quite a large squad will travel to SA.
That being the case, I hope the Coach will take the established props or Cole and Corbis. Along with Marler, Mullan and 1 other (PDJ probably).
I would like Stevens to stay with club.

Hooker - assuming Hartley banned and Weber out through surgery.
There isnt much choice - Mears is on the plane, Grey is the Saxons and next in line (Brooker injured and out for season).
And also take George. He needs to be tested at some point (Smit might be able to give him some good tips before he travels too).

There is no better testing gound for the young England Forwards than SA - if they come through those games and still show promise then they are going to be real stars for the future (and England can hang on to them).

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hartley not holding the pressure and standing up that did us in the scrum against the Welsh.

That has been Hartley's problem throughout his career. Even at Northampton with a very competitive scrum he has been 'popped' numerous times. I am not sure why it happens so much to him though? Certainly when I played hooker, I would tighten and/or lower my bind on my props which used to help me if the pressure was coming through, but I had the benefit of hanging between two excellent scrummaging props who allowed me to treat the scrum as a hobby and indulge my real passion for hanging around in the backs and disrupting their moves!

wickedwasp wrote:Just picking up from that point, can anyone remember how long it's been since players IMPROVED by training & playing for England?

Cos I can't. We used to hate players coming back as they were never in the same form & it took ages to get back to it

I think thats a very important point.

Players didnt seem happy in the previous regimes...be it the coaches, the set up or what...but they came back in worse states.

This six nations they actually look to be improving through training...Rowntree as mentioned has been doing his stuff.

This suggests Lancaster HAS achieved what everyone has been saying that he has got a great raport within the squad. Players want to be there.

If we can get a top draw Defence coach and attack coach...it could work further wonders...

To be fair for the miost part players would only get picked when they were on a high point of form, so its a bit unfair for blaming England entirely for them not maintaining that their entire career.

With Ashton ( and Cohen before him) we can lay the damage at the relationship with their clubs.


Lancaster has the backing and good relationship with his squad because they are winning. Johnson had a great feel good factor between the clear the air meeting after the first aussie test right up untill the Ireland game.
Id be interested to know what Flood thinks about Lancaster, probably much the same as Cipriani thought about Johnson.

I doubt Lancasters squad would have had the same buzz about it if it had played its fixtures the other way round and started with 3 losses.



Playing for England is tough though. Not just on the pitch, but off it too. Johnson trie dto create a relaxed " bvusiness as usual" atmosphere for the world cup but came a cropper because some players took things too far and the media became obsessed with negative stories about them. Its hardly surprissing the players got upset by it, this was suppossed to be the biggest moment of their lives ( or last chance).
Theres noone who will no better about the stresses of being an England player than the coaches, who are usually first to cop for it. Its no surprise that many players find it hard to cope with ( and yes many of teh problems are of their own making).

Gone are the days where you can go round oinking the Princess of Wales and expect it to pass largely unoticed.

Id be interested to know what Flood thinks about Lancaster

about Lancaster or about Farrell Snr?

Gone are the days where you can go round oinking the Princess of Wales and expect it to pass largely unoticed

Someones been playing around with Kate? If you're refering to Tindall then remember Zara is purely Lady Zara Phillips (now Tindall) as she doesn't hold a title.

Sam,

I was referring to Will Carling and a certain dead woman ( to mnake it clear it happened before she died!)

Good point about it more likely being Farrells influence than Lancasters that got Flood isolated and dropped.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hartley not holding the pressure and standing up that did us in the scrum against the Welsh.

Certainly when I played hooker, I would tighten and/or lower my bind on my props which used to help me if the pressure was coming through, but I had the benefit of hanging between two excellent scrummaging props who allowed me to treat the scrum as a hobby and indulge my real passion for hanging around in the backs and disrupting their moves!

I thought that was the fundamental role of the front row anyway. Besides carrying all the heavy bags to the pitch............

Good point about it more likely being Farrells influence than Lancasters that got Flood isolated and dropped

The backs coach has to have some say on his backs. If I was cynical I'd say that's why so many Sarries were a fixture straight from the first game, with very little of this 'earning the shirt' and 'not walking into the side' that was thrown at Flood when he was fully fit.