Welsh Regional Rugby in a positive light...!

First topic message reminder :

Since regional rugby started in 2003 these results have been achieved by the all four of the regions:

- 7 Quarter-finals in Europe

- 2 Semi-finals in Europe

- 13 top four placements in Celtic League with three championship titles

- Two championship titles in Anglo-Welsh and two runners-up places


That is apparently resulting in Welsh Rugby Success rate in the Six Nations that has gone from 30% in 2000-2003 to 60% from 2004 - 2012.

We have more young academy players playing in the upper echelons of the game than ever before, the regional and National sides have an average age younger than ever before.

We know that Wales and its regions can do better, but it is not all doom and gloom is it...?

Cor. Fair play. There's a lot of nonsense written above. Merging teams. Super clubs having several home grounds. The East playing at the Arms Park and Rodney Parade?!?! Dream land. Aren't the regional fans disillusioned enough and aren't attendances bad enough without this idiotic idea.
The way I see it, is, the Rabies is a poor, poor league. It has some very good teams, but isn't necessarily a good competition. The product isnt good enough. Two examples are, tonights game missing several top welsh stars and the Deagons v Blues game being played on a Thursday, again with no top players!
If you reduce the number of regions to 3, rhey will be stronger and more competitive eg in Europe. However, this further limits Warren Gatland's selection choices. An example. A year ago, Ryan Jones was the Wales no 8, yet he was playing at lock, because The O's were picking Jerry Collins at 8. The Scarlets were playing Ben Morgan and the Blues Xavier Rush. The Dragons were the only region playing a Welsh 8 in Faletau. You could argue that Wales need an extra region, but this waters down the quality. It's a really tough call. Personally I'm happy with the regions, I just think the Rabies is a fairly awful competition. Just watching the game tonight says it all to me. Big derby. A lot of top players missing. Stadium a third full. Well done to the Scarlets fans for trying to add an atmosphere tonight.

I thing we are all circling a discussion that is going no where. The one debate that has come through this thread that is a concept I would like to read people's thoughts on is the idea of the WRU taking over the running of the regions from the independent owners?

Also. Can we stop with the idea of a north Wales region. I don't care if they came out and supported the under 20's. It's not a hot bed of rugby. They produced George North. That's not enough to give them a team. I think a north Wales region would die in a few seasons. The Scarlets incorporate north Wales. They had a few games there, just to please the WRU and then everyone forgot. The Blues have mid Wales in their region. To begin with, they are having training days. What happened??? The Dragons are the same. They don't do anything for Gwent valley fans. The Dragons marketing team is so amateur it's unbelievable. I'm a Dragons fan and was a Newport fan previous and to be honest, the only change I've noticed is we have Gwent Dragons in our name and we've built a stand. Let's face facts, we have, Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli and I do feel for fans from Ebbw Vale, Pontypridd and Pontypool. They've been bullied by the big cities and surely dont feel part of regional rugby. The regions made promises just to get what they wanted. The WRU saw Wales win a grand slam in 2005 and everyone thought the regions were working. They're working in that the national team is producing, but the regional game is dying!!

Mog

I disagree, I think that. Wales should be aiming to have six regions in ten to fifteen years time. I have that much faith in the current set up with academies that. Could achieve that goal in that time.

The Rhondda deserve a region, as do north Wales but we need to think of ambitious progression of rugby in Wales as a professional sport as not something that has a quick fix, it is a long term future that is sustainable and positive for Wales that is best.

manofgwent
What a load of nonsense, It's your regions that are likely to die due to the lack of support.
The WRU is full of people like yourself who are too blind to see that you cant ignore a third of the population.
Of course you are happy with your four regions they are on your doorstep but to say that the North should not have a region is selfish to the extreme.
For god sake look at the bigger picture we are a small country and we need to search for talent from every corner of Wales.

Cymroglian. I'd love to see the north get a region, just to see how long it would last. Have they got any strong club teams?? If the talent is there, then it will come through. Why ship a load of South Wales talent to north Wales?? That's artificial. I agree the regions are dying, but having a north Wales region isn't the cure. If you read my comments fully, then you'll know that I am one of the lucky ones, to have a region on my doorstep and you'll notice that I do think it's unfair. If like Maesteg says that we'll have 6 regions in the future, I'd sooner have one in the Rhondda and one in the Gwent valleys, before I'd have on in Colwyn frickin Bay!!! Do me a favour!!!

ManofGwent - why is the idea of having a potentially successful East Team, playing in Cardiff, Newport & Gwent - "idiotic"???

Wouldn't it be miles better than the two medicore and irrelevant teams that we have there at present?

Maesteg. I hope you're right. I hope we do have more regions, just not now. That's all I'm saying. With the player drain, it's going to be tough for the 4 regions. We don't have the depth but hopefully that will come. Id like nothing more than the fans of Pontypridd or ebbw vale having their own team, because they've been left alienated by the WRU and regions. Everyone is looking after themselves.

What has strong club teams got to do with anything ? players coming through the club system is dead the future is in academies.
A North Wales region would have no competition from any major sport and would have a good following from fans and attract sponsorship.
The talent is here and the talent we have should be able to have the same opportunity as their southern counterpart without having to move to the other side of the country.
The fact your regions are facing difficulties should not be used as a excuse to stop North Wales having one.

manofgwent you just said we don't have the depth but you are willing to ignore North Wales. If you cant produce enough players in one area then you look further afield.

Now is the time to invest in N Wales with grand slam fever, the U20's had great support with a lot of young supporters that don't have our S Wales inter club issues, also it will reduce the risk of players up north playing for Sale or RL. If the WRU cannot get the super clubs to take up regional rugby then take out the Blues as the worst offender also they have the most NWQ players and take them up North.

Casartelli. It simply won't work. It simply won't happen. The Blues won't want it. The Dragons won't want it. We have regions that aren't working. The Dragons incorpoate all of Gwent. All the Gwent clubs come under their umbrella. The Blues incorporate the Rhonnda valley and mid Wales. The Blues and Dragons take players from within their region, but don't attract a lot of support from outside Newport and Cardiff because these fans see Newport and Cardiff as the enemy. There are Pontypool fans that wouldn't step foot in Rodney parade. So now you want to alienate more fans by joining these 2 regions. In theory if you join the regions together they will be stronger, but welsh rugby is tribal and you wouldn't have Newport fans going to watch the East play Connacht at 5 pm on a Sunday at the CCS. Sorry it just won't happen.
If you still want 4 regions, then the East wouldn't be any stronger, because you want a team in the north and they have George North. You'd end up shipping players from the south up there.

Cymriglian.what has having strong club teams got to do with anything??? Well, if north Wales had so much talent, then the clubs in North Wales would be in the top leagues.
If north Wales had a region, all the players would come from south Wales, so what's the point??? If players do start coming through then youlll deserve a region, but I don't see that happening. I think maybe you could start with a team in the prem and see how they get on. All I'm saying is that there's not a history of north Wales producing more than a few internationals.

manofgwent
Does it matter if players are shipped up here as long as they are qualified to play for Wales. Players need game time and a region up here would give them that
I cant see why you think that a region here would not be beneficial to Welsh rugby and you will probably get players who would love playing here even if it's only to get them out of the fish bowl.

manofgwent are you aware that the WRU have blocked North Wales clubs from being promoted ? and that's due to the reluctance of South Wales clubs making the journey once a season up here.

Here is one excample of the WRU blocking promotion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6670521.stm

So what chance has rugby up here when we have no support from the WRU

I just don't see the point. Plenty of young players are getting a chance and even more will next year with so many players leaving. The Dragons had young Robling, Steff Jones, Groves, Waters playing last night. A few years years ago, when the O's were stock piling players there were players not getting an opportunity, but that can't be said now and like I said even more will next year. As I've said, I'd sooner see a hot bed of rugby like the Rhonnda valley get a region.
I can't remember the Scarlets getting great support when they went north!!

manofgwent wrote:Cymriglian.what has having strong club teams got to do with anything??? Well, if north Wales had so much talent, then the clubs in North Wales would be in the top leagues.
If north Wales had a region, all the players would come from south Wales, so what's the point??? If players do start coming through then youlll deserve a region, but I don't see that happening. I think maybe you could start with a team in the prem and see how they get on. All I'm saying is that there's not a history of north Wales producing more than a few internationals.

What has history got to do with anything you should be looking forward.
It's absolutely brilliant how many Internationals North Wales has produced when you take into consideration that they have to fight far harder to get up the ladder.
The point of having a region is that we can search for future Internationals, There is no way that NZ or any other similar sized nation would ignore a third of their population and we cant afford to do it either.

Cymroglian. I wasn't aware of that and ghats what you're up against. As I said, it's unfair but I am one of the lucky ones. The WRU do what they please and that sums them up. When they're doing things like that, I wouldn't be at all optimistic that they'll give you a region.

What's history got to do with anything?? Well it does give a bit of an indicator to how many they'll produce in the future!! As I've said I'd choose the Rhonnda and Gwent valleys ahead of you every time!

manofgwent wrote:I just don't see the point. Plenty of young players are getting a chance and even more will next year with so many players leaving. The Dragons had young Robling, Steff Jones, Groves, Waters playing last night. A few years years ago, when the O's were stock piling players there were players not getting an opportunity, but that can't be said now and like I said even more will next year. As I've said, I'd sooner see a hot bed of rugby like the Rhonnda valley get a region.
I can't remember the Scarlets getting great support when they went north!!

The few times Scarlets did play up here they had good support but do you honestly expect North Wales to have a close affinity with a South Wales based region.
You already have four regions and you are struggling to keep them going so the idea of having another one there is ridiculous.

Cymroglan wrote:
What has history got to do with anything you should be looking forward.

Crikey. Are you being serious?

manofgwent wrote:What's history got to do with anything?? Well it does give a bit of an indicator to how many they'll produce in the future!! As I've said I'd choose the Rhonnda and Gwent valleys ahead of you every time!

How can it give a idea for the future when it's been ignored in the past.
We are four hours away from our nearest region so I'm sure the Rhondda and Gwent valleys will have no problem traveling the short distance to their nearest region.

manofgwent wrote:Casartelli. It simply won't work. It simply won't happen. The Blues won't want it. The Dragons won't want it. We have regions that aren't working. The Dragons incorpoate all of Gwent. All the Gwent clubs come under their umbrella. The Blues incorporate the Rhonnda valley and mid Wales. The Blues and Dragons take players from within their region, but don't attract a lot of support from outside Newport and Cardiff because these fans see Newport and Cardiff as the enemy. There are Pontypool fans that wouldn't step foot in Rodney parade. So now you want to alienate more fans by joining these 2 regions. In theory if you join the regions together they will be stronger, but welsh rugby is tribal and you wouldn't have Newport fans going to watch the East play Connacht at 5 pm on a Sunday at the CCS. Sorry it just won't happen.
If you still want 4 regions, then the East wouldn't be any stronger, because you want a team in the north and they have George North. You'd end up shipping players from the south up there.

Tribalism is fine if it brings in crowds and develops strong teams. But it hasn't since the 70s and is only relevant for the old timers now. If you're into local tribal squabbles then go and watch the Premiership matches.

You honestly think that an 'East Wales' team with Roberts, Cuthbert, Faletau, Lydiate, Halfpenny etc etc wouldn't draw a crowd of 10k any day of the week, even against Connacht???

People from all over Wales would go and watch them, in the afterglow of the Grand Slam.

The divisive nature of labelling teams as 'Cardiff' Blues and 'Newport' Gwent Dragons killed the current set up.

Time to scrap it and move to proper regions.

It's no more ridiculous than having one in north Wales. If the Rhonnda had a team, they would get great support.
I'm not disagreeing that the regions are on their knees. They are. The Dragons are pretty much a joke. Players are leaving left, right and centre. The league is poor. The support is awful and all regions give away tickets like flyers!! A lots being covered up. A region in north Wales isn't the cure.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:
What has history got to do with anything you should be looking forward.

Crikey. Are you being serious?

Of course I am.

WOW there's a lot of hot air on here since I last posted. I hate to say it but MOG has spoken more sense than anyone despite having a very defensive outlook on the whole thing.

I don't believe that the WRU is about to wrest control of the regions or even try to disband them. Lets talk about the realms of reality.

A. The Valleys fans feel disenfranchised.
B. The North is under developed.
C. The French have too much money.

So what to do about it.

A. Blues bigwigs get up the A470 and start winning people over, ditto Dragons
B. WRU get a North Wales team in the Welsh Premiership and Amlin
C. Well let the boys go and get their pensions in early. It won't last forever whichever way you look at it. Just remind them to get release clauses into their contracts. In the meantime keep bringing those academy lads through.

Sorry MOG you're too pessimistic about the North. Casterelli you're 9 years too late mate.

... and finally - it ain't that bad! 3 Grandslams and RWC Semis in the last 7 years says that the structure is working for the national team at the very least!

I hate this argument that because the Welsh team has done well it must be down to the regions. It's nothing to do with it. We do well when we have a decent coach (Ruddock/Gatland) and badly when we don't (Jenkins/Hansen). We also rely on having the majority of our best players fit - as there is no strength in depth.

How does having three mediocre regions and one underachiever possibly help the test team?

If the regions are responsible for the Grand Slams then they're also to blame for losses to Fiji, Italy, Scotland and annihilations at the hands of the All Blacks, England, Ireland, Australia...

Castarelli. Let me get this idea right. You want East South and West?? Well obviously they'll be stronger. They'll be more competitive in the Rabies and HC. it does also limit the option s for Warren Gatland. Who would be the Easts fly half?? Tovey, Steff Jones, Sweeney, Robling?? You would have a lot of players not getting much action there! Also you say that a super team containing Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau would get the linters in. Yes, if they ever played!! The top players only turn out a handful of times for their regions. You'd have thought that having top names would put bums on seats, but the Ospreys have had a team with the likes of Phillips, Ryan jones AWJ, hair bears, Bennett, Collins, holah, Byrne, Shane, , Bowe etc and still get 6000-7000 fans. People just haven't got the appetite for watching thesse mediocre grs . There's no rivalries and no excitement in the Rabies. Would I go and watch the East play Connacht at 7.35 at the CCS on Thursday before a big international, so no top
Players are available??? On your bike. You can change the regions as much as you want. What's wrong is the terrible structuring of the Rabies league. It's a poor competition.

manofgwent - let me get this straight? You want to leave things as they are and assume, at some future date, all will be well?

We will suddenly, for no apparent reason after 9 years, develop competitive regions and some money will be found somewhere to continue to subsidise the game. From under a mattress presumably?

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:
What has history got to do with anything you should be looking forward.

Crikey. Are you being serious?

Of course I am.

So you believe that history is irrelevant?

Casartelli wrote:I hate this argument that because the Welsh team has done well it must be down to the regions. It's nothing to do with it. We do well when we have a decent coach (Ruddock/Gatland) and badly when we don't (Jenkins/Hansen). We also rely on having the majority of our best players fit - as there is no strength in depth.

How does having three mediocre regions and one underachiever possibly help the test team?

If the regions are responsible for the Grand Slams then they're also to blame for losses to Fiji, Italy, Scotland and annihilations at the hands of the All Blacks, England, Ireland, Australia...

Never mind that the regions develop the players in the first place!

So you've identified that there are other factors involved well done! Search back in those memory banks and see if you remember what things were like from 89 - 03. The regions have done a lot for the preparation of young players and the standards of the established players.

No strength in depth. You're having a laugh! I'm not about to claim that there are 10 world class players in every position but we have a decent depth in most positions. Better than we have had for some considerable time.

Anyway. Your argument is that you want the WRU to run the regions along slightly different lines to the current arrangement. Sorry but you're reinventing the wheel. We need to build on what we've got which means the Valleys, Blues and Dragons and the WRU support a development side up north and get the development officers out in their droves. (not just north wales but ALL wales)

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:
What has history got to do with anything you should be looking forward.

Crikey. Are you being serious?

Of course I am.

So you believe that history is irrelevant?

Yes of course when there is no region here to base the history on.
The existing regions came into existence in 2003 and even their history is not yet ten years old.

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:
What has history got to do with anything you should be looking forward.

Crikey. Are you being serious?

Of course I am.

So you believe that history is irrelevant?

Yes of course when there is no region here to base the history on.
The existing regions came into existence in 2003 and even their history is not yet ten years old.

2003. 9 years ago.
That's sort of history isn't it?

Casartelli wrote:I hate this argument that because the Welsh team has done well it must be down to the regions. It's nothing to do with it. We do well when we have a decent coach (Ruddock/Gatland) and badly when we don't (Jenkins/Hansen). We also rely on having the majority of our best players fit - as there is no strength in depth.

How does having three mediocre regions and one underachiever possibly help the test team?

If the regions are responsible for the Grand Slams then they're also to blame for losses to Fiji, Italy, Scotland and annihilations at the hands of the All Blacks, England, Ireland, Australia...

Ruddock before Hansen???
Love this forum.

Dave did you follow the thread ? We were talking about North Wales rugby and how many players came from North Wales.
I said that history is irrelevant when you have nothing to base it on ie there is no region here.

maestegmafia wrote:I thing we are all circling a discussion that is going no where. The one debate that has come through this thread that is a concept I would like to read people's thoughts on is the idea of the WRU taking over the running of the regions from the independent owners?

Agreed.

WRU running the regions? It'll go to court before it goes anywhere. If the WRU tried to force that it would be totally fractious and potentially ruinous. Hence why I disagree with Casterelli's point of view. Fine in an ideal world (i personally like the idea of 4 representative regions) but even back in 02/03 this option was not on the table.

If we rejig the whole shebang what do we get - 4 new sides splitting £14m between them & any other revenue raised. Same horse different jockey. Who will run them? Will they be any good? Lot's of upheaval for what gain? Would that reconnect the valleys with the professional game? I doubt it. Chances are S.Wales or whatever they'll be called will still play in Cardiff in front of 10k fans. Expensive, fractious and unnecessary. Better that the Blues and Dragons step up tho the title "Region" than waste time and money and cause yet more disenfranchisement chopping and changing.

Regions aren't perfect but they're better than what we had and there's room for improvement. Glass half full!

Casartelli. Read what I'm writing!!! I'm not saying that the structure is working now, but I don't see your idea working either. The Welsh game, like England is built on club rugby. They may be called regions, but really we have Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli. Im a season ticket holder at the Dragons and could spend all day moaning about my region and the structure of Welsh rugby, but I don't see any other way at the minute. Your idea is just a case of mixing the same players at different regions. They are still the same players. The East would have 2 current regions. The west would have 2 current regions. The siuth and the north would have all the Dross that's left over!!! Bizarre!!!
To say the regions haven't contributed is a joke. You can't help but notice, that players are ready for regional rugby at such a young age. George North, Faletau, Lydiate are all players who have been physically ready at a young age. The game has moved on so much since the amateur days. The skill levels are far far better than say 15 years ago. I remember welsh games in the 90's were full of handling errors. I watched th 1987 RWC game between England Wales the other day. My god it was hard to watch. The standard was appalong. Even Jiffy!!!! And England looked like Mountain Ash!!

If we had 3 (or even 2 actually) competitive teams in the HC, or the teams were drawing decent crowds, or they were attracting decent sponsors and not going slowly bankrupt - if even one of these were the case then maybe I could be persuaded by the 'just wait another few years and all will be okay' argument.

But we don't, they aren't and the money has run out.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:I hate this argument that because the Welsh team has done well it must be down to the regions. It's nothing to do with it. We do well when we have a decent coach (Ruddock/Gatland) and badly when we don't (Jenkins/Hansen). We also rely on having the majority of our best players fit - as there is no strength in depth.

How does having three mediocre regions and one underachiever possibly help the test team?

If the regions are responsible for the Grand Slams then they're also to blame for losses to Fiji, Italy, Scotland and annihilations at the hands of the All Blacks, England, Ireland, Australia...

Ruddock before Hansen???
Love this forum.

Hansen. Wins 10. Losses 19. Six Nations whitewash and 11 consecutive test defeats.
Ruddock. Wins 13. Losses 7. Won a Grand Slam.

This sort of stuff is very findable on 'tinternet.

Casartelli. You're right about the regions. Attendances will only drop further next season, but your idea is simply rubbish!!!
Its even worse than the current one. Its never gonna happen. Nobody on this thread agrees with you. Stop trying to flog it!! You're just shifting around the 4 regions to make 2 really good and 2 really bad. As I've said. If people wouldn't go and watch the Ospreys in their pomp. Why on earth would they go and watch a combination of what the Ospreys have left and the Scarlets. Home ground Swansea. You may not like tribalism, but can you imagine Scarlets fans travelling to the Liberty to watch George North and co playing for the west v Glasgow at 5 pm on a Sunday??? If you can, then you're a very deluded man!!
Absolutely insane!!!!!

Casartelli wrote:If we had 3 (or even 2 actually) competitive teams in the HC, or the teams were drawing decent crowds, or they were attracting decent sponsors and not going slowly bankrupt - if even one of these were the case then maybe I could be persuaded by the 'just wait another few years and all will be okay' argument.

But we don't, they aren't and the money has run out.

Blues been drawing decent crowds over the last few seasons. Scarlets crowds now at 9k on ave (my mistake earlier I have since been corrected) and growing. Dragons, Scarlets and now Ospreys all going down grow your own route and have cut their cloths according to their means (will the Blues follow?). 2 teams through to europe knockouts this year. Two teams still in with a shout in the domestic league. I am not convinced that you are right about going bankrupt. I think lessons have been learned (Scarlets in particular showed Gallacher the door along with all his awful signings and immediately set about putting a business model and rugby philosophy that would be sustainable) and moves are afoot to improve matters yet more. What's the point of making difficult and expensive changes now when there are cheaper and easier options available? Get down to a rugby ground next weekend and try to enjoy

MOG - too pessimistic mate!

manofgwent wrote:Casartelli. You're right about the regions. Attendances will only drop further next season, but your idea is simply rubbish!!!
Its even worse than the current one. Its never gonna happen. Nobody on this thread agrees with you. Stop trying to flog it!! You're just shifting around the 4 regions to make 2 really good and 2 really bad. As I've said. If people wouldn't go and watch the Ospreys in their pomp. Why on earth would they go and watch a combination of what the Ospreys have left and the Scarlets. Home ground Swansea. You may not like tribalism, but can you imagine Scarlets fans travelling to the Liberty to watch George North and co playing for the west v Glasgow at 5 pm on a Sunday??? If you can, then you're a very deluded man!!
Absolutely insane!!!!!

Okay, if this is the standard of debate now I'll play along - your idea is more rubbish than mine, tribalism is childish nonsense and you are more deluded than me. And even more insane. And my dad can beat your dad up.

Calm down. You're making yourself look a bit of a plum!!
Surely I can point out that it's a rubbish idea. It's a debate. It's not that it's a poor idea. It's that it's a really poor idea!!! I think the standard of debate has been good. I also think that as a Dragons season ticket holder. My point is valid. How would you like me to phrase what I think of your comments in order to not offend you?? It's not personally against you. It's just what your thinking!!!!!

TBS. My comments are based on what I see as a Dragons fan. The regions are struggling and next season will get harder. I think a lot of what goes on doesn't come out into the open. I know for a fact that the Blues and Dragons give away tickets for fun just to try and increase attendances to paper over the massive cracks. Only the die-hards are still interested in watching the regional game. The product isn't good enough and I blame the Rabies league.

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:I hate this argument that because the Welsh team has done well it must be down to the regions. It's nothing to do with it. We do well when we have a decent coach (Ruddock/Gatland) and badly when we don't (Jenkins/Hansen). We also rely on having the majority of our best players fit - as there is no strength in depth.

How does having three mediocre regions and one underachiever possibly help the test team?

If the regions are responsible for the Grand Slams then they're also to blame for losses to Fiji, Italy, Scotland and annihilations at the hands of the All Blacks, England, Ireland, Australia...

Ruddock before Hansen???
Love this forum.

Hansen. Wins 10. Losses 19. Six Nations whitewash and 11 consecutive test defeats.
Ruddock. Wins 13. Losses 7. Won a Grand Slam.

This sort of stuff is very findable on 'tinternet.

2003 RWC. The games against England and New Zealand.
We lost both, but they were huge turning points.
Henry and Hansen were massive for Wales.
Ruddock took over for a bit then left.

Casartelli wrote:

Okay, if this is the standard of debate now I'll play along - your idea is more rubbish than mine, tribalism is childish nonsense and you are more deluded than me. And even more insane. And my dad can beat your dad up.

Nonsense or not, tribalism (feeling part of something I would say) is very real and South Wales has bucket loads of it to spare.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:I hate this argument that because the Welsh team has done well it must be down to the regions. It's nothing to do with it. We do well when we have a decent coach (Ruddock/Gatland) and badly when we don't (Jenkins/Hansen). We also rely on having the majority of our best players fit - as there is no strength in depth.

How does having three mediocre regions and one underachiever possibly help the test team?

If the regions are responsible for the Grand Slams then they're also to blame for losses to Fiji, Italy, Scotland and annihilations at the hands of the All Blacks, England, Ireland, Australia...

Ruddock before Hansen???
Love this forum.

Hansen. Wins 10. Losses 19. Six Nations whitewash and 11 consecutive test defeats.
Ruddock. Wins 13. Losses 7. Won a Grand Slam.

This sort of stuff is very findable on 'tinternet.

2003 RWC. The games against England and New Zealand.
We lost both, but they were huge turning points.
Henry and Hansen were massive for Wales.
Ruddock took over for a bit then left.

Hansen often criticised unfairly in my opinion. He did insist on setting professional fitness standards (ask Adam Jones) and those 03 RWC matches sparked a new generation of players into life. I think the 05 & 08 GS's owe a little to the work Hansen put in ... Nice one Stevo

Bugger clocks go forward forgot about that. Off to bed

manofgwent wrote:TBS. My comments are based on what I see as a Dragons fan. The regions are struggling and next season will get harder. I think a lot of what goes on doesn't come out into the open. I know for a fact that the Blues and Dragons give away tickets for fun just to try and increase attendances to paper over the massive cracks. Only the die-hards are still interested in watching the regional game. The product isn't good enough and I blame the Rabies league.

It could be a lot better. I have big issues with the structure of the season. It's not the idea of the league per se ... it's more to do with the fact that the top players don't play in most of the matches and that we tend to get matches at stupid o'clock any day of the week and not on sat/sun afternoon. Now and again we get some humdingers. They should ALL be like that.

However .... glass half full

manofgwent wrote:I know for a fact that the Blues and Dragons give away tickets for fun just to try and increase attendances to paper over the massive cracks.

A truly shockingly shocking revelation.
Sshh MOG. We don't want everyone knowing do we?
A certain Cardiff Blues FD (who has now left the club) denied the existence of these free tickets. I had around 6 of them given to me last season. Back of the net or what?
Pretend attendances. Pretend regions. Pretend everything's ok?
Far too much pretending for me.