South Africa vs England: Predict the series result.

First topic message reminder :

South africa and england in are very much in the same boat. They will both be sporting a new coach, a whole host of new players and hopefully a new game plan as well.

I wouldn't hold my breath to much yet, if you are a South African supporter though. Heyneke Meyer will have to put his money where his mouth is, there are a handfull of players most likely not available for the series, some due to retirement and some due to the fact they they have signed overseas contracts. John Smit, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Fourie du Preez, Frans Steyn, Jaque Fourie, Juan Smith and Guthro Steenkamp are all players who may not be available for the series.

So you could expect a new look springbok teama dnthis in my opinion is the best chance for england to get a series win over the Springboks.

England ended the six Nations strong by eating the Irish alive, the question does however remain on whether they will be able to evolve their game plan beyond individual performances and a strong forward pack.

England has been the most successful home nation touring to the SH giants, they have played 39 test matches and won 8, their last win coming against australia in 2010

And therein lies my suspicions that Meyer will be more of the same we saw the last four years.

that was an enthuasiastic yes if I ever saw one!

biltongbek wrote:And therein lies my suspicions that Meyer will be more of the same we saw the last four years.

If thats the case then i can seriously see England nicking at least one test off you.

Australian referee Steve Walsh will handle two of the three tests involving the Springboks and England in June, the IRB has announced.

Walsh was given the honour for the first and third tests against England in Durban and Port Elizabeth respectively, with Alain Rolland taking charge of the second test at Coca-Cola Park in Johannesburg.

Not good news for SA.

Is there are argument for one referee to be given all three tests? You only have to have the one refereeing team out in South Africa and they can develop their understanding, as well as the players developing their understanding of what this referee expects of them.

Robbo, it is the same team of referees, Rolland is assistant referee for the other two, and he just swaps with Walsh for the middle test.

But yes I agree with you it should be one referee, but Walsh is not a favourtie amongst south africans, we suffered heavily under him durng the super rugby when he was still officiating that.

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:And therein lies my suspicions that Meyer will be more of the same we saw the last four years.

If thats the case then i can seriously see England nicking at least one test off you.

Because thats whats happened in the last 4 years? Even a weak SA will be a huge challange unless this England side takes another big step forward. They have the potential to do that, but im not going to get too carried away till they are living up to it. Theres England sides who shoudlve been able to beat SA at home when they were in a shambles and failed to do so in recent years, I dont see why this one is suddenly going to beat them away unless they improve from the solid base they have at the moment.

Thought this was a cricket poll at first. 1-1 draw for that. 1 washout.

As for the rugby, I'd go for 3-0 (assuming there's no draws) because I believe SA would win the penalty shoot-out by a young lion's whisker.

Will Juan Smith be back for this one?

dragonbreath wrote:

fa0019 wrote:dragonbreath

Durban and PE do not have hard pitches. Both are on the coast and will host the matches during the SA autumn. Durban gets near double the amount of rain that London gets.

SA is the size of western Europe... the climate and subsequent pitches of the Cape and Natal differ significantly from your 'hard pitches' of Bloemfontein for instance.

Personally I think ENG have a better chance of beating SA in 1 or more of their test matches then WAL do against AUS.

SA are a team in transition, have lost all their leaders to retirement (Smit, Matfield, Du Preez), need to completely rework their lineout and no longer have a dominant front five to give their kicking 10 a platform... as well as a new coach.

AUS on the other hand have lost hardly any players to retirement and have kept their coach; they're a well settled side and if Cooper returns in time I reckon they look good for winning the 4N title (given NZ also have transitional issues).... not least never looked troubled by WAL in their last 2 matches in late 2011.... and now they will be at home.

If you are looking for an argument from me regarding Wales' chances in Aus you won't get one. By the same token England have very little chance in SA. They may not be humbled but they simply do not have the attacking tools to score the number of points that will be necessary to actually win. Good defence reduces the total required to take victory but IMO it will still be around 20 at a minimum. Can't see where those points will come from .

Hopefully we will bring some rather attacking players on tour

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Will Juan Smith be back for this one?

Yeah Rory I am pretty sure he will.

biltongbek wrote:Australian referee Steve Walsh will handle two of the three tests involving the Springboks and England in June, the IRB has announced.

Walsh was given the honour for the first and third tests against England in Durban and Port Elizabeth respectively, with Alain Rolland taking charge of the second test at Coca-Cola Park in Johannesburg.

Not good news for SA.

Or England. Walsh was suspended due to "inappropriate behaviour" towards England during a match (his first strike of three on route to being dumped by the NZRFU) and has been a James Hunt towards us ever since.

It'll be interesting to see if the bias is cancelled out or whether one is more deep-rooted than the other.

It will be, but I have no confidence when he referees our teams.

I remember a number of years ago when he was still a kiwi, he refereed all four the Brumbies matches in the Super 12, we got one draw and three losses, his refereeing was atrocious.

I similarily feel quite nervous when I see his name, though to be fair I think his standard of refereeing has improved a little the last 12-9 months.

Well Walsh has plenty of previous with us and Rolland seems to have an issue with the English so I guess the results could be anyone's guess Either way they will have far too big an outcome on the games themselves, especially with 'Mr I've have to be, without any doubt whatsoever the absolute center of attention at all times during the game Rolland'. Didn't expect anything less though, all the best SH ref's are South African.

I've voted 2-1 to SA. It was either that or 3-0 to them but that's because I'm trying to be positive after a totally s*** week at work, plus it's the weekend

I'm going now as I'm recording the Bulls game, going out in 10 minutes and wanted to watch the whole match in one go.

Ignore my post I posted it in the wrong thread an will delete it now.

Sorry biltonbek it wasn't meant as a dig. I thought you had posted it in relation to potential players for SA in the series with England (which is understandable) - my post was to explain why I had dropped in for one post and then ran away!

I'm currently watching the Lions Stormers game live hoping they don't mention the Bulls result

No worries, B91212.

I was so focused on the game I didn't notice I was in the wrong thread.

It looks like the Lions with injuries and all all coming back into this match.

Unfortunately yes it does look like they are getting back into it, although fair play to them considering. Once again been impressed by Glen Jackson.

Back to the thread. After watching the NSW Sharks game last night (great game) if Lambie isn't your first choice 10 for the England tests then I will be pretty relieved.

Yes Lambie is definitely my favourite, but we'll talk after you watched the Bulls game

It may be defeatist, but i went 3-0 Saffers. I just think that whoever Meyer chooses, their pack will be too powerful and aggressive for us.

For once, i think we might actually have more physically imposing backs. But we need to use them better and i'm not convinced Farrell can, or that we'll get enough quick ball from our pack. I still think comparing our hooker, 2nd row and flankers, we look way off them.

B91212

You watched the bulls game yet or heard the result... if so I think it has really thrown the cat amongst the pigeons in terms of the Meyer & how he builds his side.

Just hope & prey it doesn't push Meyer to reward Meisiekind with a place in the squad/team.

Habana looks like he is hitting form oncemore and is currently playing better than he ever has in a stormers jersey... very pleased for the man who suffered so much under PDV.

Evening FA.

Yeah there were some improvements from some players.

If you want to discuss them go over to the club side. There is a Super XV stiicky at the top.

B91212 can join us if he has seen the game.

England have a lot to prove and have come a long way in a short time.South Africa especially on the veldt is a very difficult place to tour.Kicks at altitude
go a long way etc.The Bok Scrum is currently not the most formidable in World rugby.Many faces presumeably will not be there for the Boks,and Matfield/Botha
as the best current Line out in the world.Will be a huge loss,Morne Steyn has the
creativity of a plank.BUT as a match winner he is in the JW class t he may be
preferred to Lambie.
For me the standout RWC performance[apart from the ABs SF win]was the
Wales/Bok match.Hopefuly England will go one better and win at least one match.

Steyne may be trying to mix it up a little more Alan looking at his recent Bulls performances where he's getting a bit more involved and linking more.

Of the SA 10's so far I rate the Cheetahs Goosen as the most promising- especially as he's only 19. Won't have been tarnished at all by the pdv era and has a lot of maturity for his age.

And a huge boot! Heard someone mention he's easily a 60m plus goal kicker and drop kicker.

For a 19 year old thats huge...

fa0019 wrote:B91212

You watched the bulls game yet or heard the result... if so I think it has really thrown the cat amongst the pigeons in terms of the Meyer & how he builds his side.

Just hope & prey it doesn't push Meyer to reward Meisiekind with a place in the squad/team.

Habana looks like he is hitting form oncemore and is currently playing better than he ever has in a stormers jersey... very pleased for the man who suffered so much under PDV.

I did watch the game fa0019, they looked very good and played in a way that surprised me to say the least. It will be interesting to see what kind of team Meyer brings together and if this result changes his thinking somewhat. Regarding Olivier, he certainly played well (as did just about all the Bulls players) but I've not seen anything from him to say he will be any better than Jean De Villiers who I'm usually a fan of but is not playing particularly well. Personally I thought you looked better with F Steyn at 12 before he got injured but Mayer may decide he wants his big boot at 15.

Is Meyer sticking with the 'must be playing club rugby in SA' consideration for his selections?

Taylorman, just for you.

Johan Goosen 67 meter penalty kick at age 17

I cant open that link biltong but a 67 meter penalty kick is something special.

Billy can you go on youtube at work?

Just put in johan goosen kick

No, i will have to look at it later

Biltong is that exceptional in SA,Don Clarke was knocking them over regularly
from that range.Gerry Brand was credited with one from a 100metres!!! back in the 1940`s in SA.At altitude that is surely the Norm as opposed to at sealevel,
Not knocking the guy though that`s still great kicking as long as you don`t go back to 55metre rugby.

emack2 wrote:Biltong is that exceptional in SA,Don Clarke was knocking them over regularly
from that range.Gerry Brand was credited with one from a 100metres!!! back in the 1940`s in SA.At altitude that is surely the Norm as opposed to at sealevel,
Not knocking the guy though that`s still great kicking as long as you don`t go back to 55metre rugby.

100mtrs? That has to be an urban myth, surely!!!

emack2 wrote:Biltong is that exceptional in SA,Don Clarke was knocking them over regularly
from that range.Gerry Brand was credited with one from a 100metres!!! back in the 1940`s in SA.At altitude that is surely the Norm as opposed to at sealevel,
Not knocking the guy though that`s still great kicking as long as you don`t go back to 55metre rugby.

Alan, most kickers can get 50 meters, there aren't many that pushes past 60 meters.

55 to 60mtrs is an excellent achievement but anything over 60 is special in my books.

Yeah, look, I haven't seen many kickers get that distance and still get it over, which is the mark of a great kicker anyway. Frans Steyn is the only other South African that can kick that far, but his accuracy is about 50%.

The greats of the past that did it, well I haven't seen it so can't comment on it.

Problem you have with the old mythical type kicks is that there is no specific evidence.

I had heard of an 80m kick from SA, but then I also heard of a 75m try from a tighthead I knew.... uuuuummmmm!!!!

Altitude does make one hell of a difference though, I knocked over a 45m pen when I was in SA last year. And I am/was a 2nd row, considering 10 for the 'twighlight years' now though!

There is a theory in the USA that a baseball will travel 3% to 7% further at high altitude of 1550 meters above sea level, now that is the altitude of the higveldt. ( Ellispark and Loftus.)

Considering a kick of 50m at sealevel, if kicked 7% further at altitude should then be equavilant to a kick of 53.5 meters at altitude.

So looking at Johan Goosen's kick at age 17, at sealevel that would still equate to 62meters, which is respectable in anyone's book.

Its more than respectable, its quality

67 at 17's pretty special in a match alright. I was a handy kicker around that age and got a 60m drop against Ponsonby under 19's. Mind you, with a bit of a wind. In practice I was knocking them over 60. We used to be out all night every day after school, practicing, marking distances etc to try and beat them etc as you do, turning up to practice an hour early to nab the kicking spot for the next game by impressing the coach...again as you do...

For me it was all about the type of ball back then once you could kick with any consistency. The adidas balls with the black caps at either end were by far the best and if 'pressurised' to the right level to produce that 'ping' in them, man could they go.

Its not just his kicking thats getting him there but it helps. Franz Steyne is another with a huge boot but its not from that he's made his success. Watching his all round play just suggests he'll make his mark sooner rather than later as some 10's do. Certainly our world cup u 20'a are coming through at varying rates- Cruden already there yet Tyler B- at an earlier Worlds only coming through now.

Its about maturity and from what Ive seen of Goosen he looks like not a lots going to be holding him back.

i caught a 10.5 foot long fish the other day

Yeah and I kicked a 100 meter penalty...









With a pulled hamstring












on both legs.

I know Don Clarke used to like kicking them from his own 10 metre line that was in NZ.He kicked a goal from a Mark to beat England Touring side from about 65 metres[placed no charge]Second Test 1963.Englands first tour to NZ
Clarke I`m sure kicked several from that range in SA 1960.Also a punt of 95 metres on the veldt.
There were a lot of big kickers in Nz at the time including Mick Williment,and Watson[don`t remember his other name].Siege Gun kickers were in vogue then
FullBacks not fly halves were the usual suspects.
I seem to recall the Boks had a lock forward on the same lines at the time,can`t
recall his name.Frik Du Preez of course was a considerable goal kicker too.

biltongbek wrote:Yeah and I kicked a 100 meter penalty...









With a pulled hamstring












on both legs.

Knew that'd stir you up...can't help it if that was all I was good at...

...Youre right though, most kickers can get through to 50. Some lose accuracy around 45 in matches cos theyre trying to punch it too hard but in practice those same guys will be knocking in 55- 60 on a good day...easily when all they're trying to do is power the ball through while retaining as much technique as possible.

Alan how Don Clarke kicked anything over 60 in toe hack mode where the ball wasn't end on is beyond me. The boot itself must be providing some good ball area and its a walk in. You cant run in with toe hack straight with any accuracy so its all powers in the front thighs and huge follow through where the boot must end up over your shoulder!

We practised it endlessly but got nowhere near the distances that conventional round the corner can get. Ball end on I can understand as the force is up the middle of the ball.

Don Clarke was a freak,6 foot 1or 2inches,between 16-18 stone for a back in 1950`s that was huge!!!.DB used to practise endlessly on his or parents Farm in Waikato.Brothers acting as ball boys,after milking.Brother Ian practised propping against goal posts on the same farm.No matter the difficulties DB did it on a regular basis,also massive drops of either foot.In his day the most feared weapon in rugby.Unfortunately it mean`t an era trench warfare,kick for position
a series of great packs and DB `s boot.In period 1956-64 he played 30 odd tests 3 times[Lions 1959,Boks 1960].There was a book about it "Lions in Chains"[about the AllBlacks not the Lions] forget the author have it in my collection some where.

Taylorman, alan, I was a front rower, so as much as the arts of the front row is a mystery to those in the back, I can't really comment on the technique of kicking and how you gain the most distance on a kick.

My claim to fame is showing a kid who went to play rugby for the first time in grade 8 on the thoery of how to kic a ball at posts. That is the only thing I can do with a ball, can't kick it out of hand, can't even try to drop it as my hand, foot and eye co-ordination doesn't allow for it.

In fact i can't even stay upright on a skate board.

Therefor when it comes to kicking I only look at the evidence presented.

For me any kicker must kick a minimum of 75% of his kicks, when they go beyond 50 meters, I would still expect a high success rate otherwise it is just a waste of possession.

I would prefer a penalty kick go to the line if there isn't a "guarantee" that the kicker has a 75% chance of nailing it.

The fact is if a kicker kicks from 60 meters, he doesn't have to misdirect his ball by much more than 1 or 2 degrees to miss the posts anyway.

Yes thats right biltong theres more that can happen to a ball over 50 on way to the posts and given a player has to sacrifice some technique for power it adds to the risk.

The other side to the equation is theres also less pressure on the kicker to make it as few expect it to go over and theres more relaxation with the kick.

With the clark style...you dont see it now... if you can imagine a can can girl kicking high above her head..hard to i know.... Thats the same action. Walk up and through the ball with the kicking leg straight through and up.

The added complexity is the toe doesnt cover a lot of the ball area meaning you must middle it or it will fly off.

Any football plauer knows the instep style of kicking allows for more coverage of the ball power and accuracy. You never see a football player toe hack the ball. It just flies off anywhere.

I played football till about 14 when all my mates were playing rugby do started late but still had a fascinstion with kicking the ball. Id say many 10s have done that.