South Africa vs England: Predict the series result.

by **Biltong** Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:51 am

First topic message reminder :

South africa and england in are very much in the same boat. They will both be sporting a new coach, a whole host of new players and hopefully a new game plan as well.

I wouldn't hold my breath to much yet, if you are a South African supporter though. Heyneke Meyer will have to put his money where his mouth is, there are a handfull of players most likely not available for the series, some due to retirement and some due to the fact they they have signed overseas contracts. John Smit, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Fourie du Preez, Frans Steyn, Jaque Fourie, Juan Smith and Guthro Steenkamp are all players who may not be available for the series.

So you could expect a new look springbok teama dnthis in my opinion is the best chance for england to get a series win over the Springboks.

England ended the six Nations strong by eating the Irish alive, the question does however remain on whether they will be able to evolve their game plan beyond individual performances and a strong forward pack.

England has been the most successful home nation touring to the SH giants, they have played 39 test matches and won 8, their last win coming against australia in 2010

by Triangulation Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:11 pm

wasps wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
biltongbek wrote:PSW, the problem we have had with our back line can be summarised in one player's performance.

Under Jake white Habana scored 30 tries in 35 tests. Under PDv he scored 10 tries in 39 matches.

You may want to argue a player loses form, but it is only game plan that can be blamed when a wing who scored near a try per test, has been reduced to 1 try every 4 games.

See also : Chris Ahston
With Wilko/Flood/Johnson : 18 games 15 tries
With Hodgson/Farrrel ( plus one sub from Flood)/ Lancaster : 5 games 0 tries

Can i just say that this is such a schoolboy move and i was suprised that it took so long for opposition sides to sort it out.

What was it ? 4 Tries v Italy.

Get on youtube and check out Australian backline action - some of it off 1st phase play.

Now ask yourself. - with all the access to players etc that the coaches have - why the hell cant we see some backline moves either in general or 1st phase play???

I dont blame the current coaches too much due to limited time in charge but even they had time to work on some moves.

Can someone, anyone proffer a half sensible explanation as to England's complete and utter lack of backline moves??

Thanks

Hmmmm...
With Flood, during the 6N's last year, Ashton was popping up on Floods shoulder all the time waiting for an Inside pass.
He used that to great effect in a few games at the start of the tournament.
It then appeared as though the opposition got wise and cut that channel down....
In my opinion, that's when Ashton stopped scoring.

by Cowshot Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:26 pm

Can someone, anyone proffer a half sensible explanation as to England's complete and utter lack of backline moves??

I'll have a go:

A side naturally develops from the set piece outward. Until the forwards provide decent ball it's hard for the backs to do much and until the half backs and centres have some game time with the ball it's hard for the back three to know when and where to pop up; and back moves are a matter of inches.

In the Scotland game nothing in the backs worked and we weren't generating anything much. Game won on defence.

By the time we played Wales we were trying to attack in the backs, and a few things began to stutter into life. Against Ireland circumstances were different and it was a tight five game.

So that's a total of four games together, what with the Ireland game and the personnel and positional shuffles after the Scotland game. I think we've seen progress and the picture isn't quite as bleak as you make it out. Sure there is work to be done, but we've been on a heck of a steep learning curve so far...

by HammerofThunor Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:28 pm

I've gone for 2:1 to South Africa. If we can get one single win there it would be fantastic (regardless of how poor South Africa may or may not be, we don't win their often, have the other home nations ever won there? Christ do the All Blacks often win there?). If we lose them all but up the performance and compete it'll be a disappointment but not a surprise.

[My prediction for 6 nations was 3 wins so hopefully we'll go on an up my prediction again and get a 2-1 tour win Smile

]

by EnglishReign Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:34 pm

2-1 SA, I reckon. Would reverse that score if all 3 matches were at Twickenham.

by Portnoy Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:48 pm

I vote 0-0

On the basis that all games will be drawn or there will be an horrendous incident that will prevent the tour going on.

The second is more likely than the first.

by Adam Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:53 pm

Portnoy wrote:I vote 0-0

On the basis that all games will be drawn or there will be an horrendous incident that will prevent the tour going on.

The second is more likely than the first.

Neither funny nor likely....I don't think I 'get it' Portnoy....

by belovedfrosties Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:15 pm

wasps wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
biltongbek wrote:PSW, the problem we have had with our back line can be summarised in one player's performance.

Under Jake white Habana scored 30 tries in 35 tests. Under PDv he scored 10 tries in 39 matches.

You may want to argue a player loses form, but it is only game plan that can be blamed when a wing who scored near a try per test, has been reduced to 1 try every 4 games.

See also : Chris Ahston
With Wilko/Flood/Johnson : 18 games 15 tries
With Hodgson/Farrrel ( plus one sub from Flood)/ Lancaster : 5 games 0 tries

Hmmmm...
With Flood, during the 6N's last year, Ashton was popping up on Floods shoulder all the time waiting for an Inside pass.
He used that to great effect in a few games at the start of the tournament.
It then appeared as though the opposition got wise and cut that channel down....
In my opinion, that's when Ashton stopped scoring.

True wasp but after that Ashton went on to be top try scorer in the world cup so it doesn't stand up too much. I would also add that had Ashton been in his normal position on the wing, he would have received the ball after floods long pass at the end of the Wales game and i would back him to score that over Strettle any day of the week. It has to be said that Flood just plays a wider game than Farrell and England are at the moment, which suits Ashton.

I'm pleased we are touring SA rather than Oz, what more do learn other than knowing we can beat the aussies in the scrum? SA will be a real challenge for this team and they will only learn from it

by Full Credit Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:11 pm

damngoodOvalball wrote:That said, the victory in Oz was based on totally demolishing them up front.

...that, and Giteau missing a sitter from right in front that my grandmother could have knocked over.

I think England will do it very tough over there with the big stadiums and vocal crowds. Not the mention that the boks will be looking to atone for the RWC. Hard to go past 3-0.

by Triangulation Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:13 pm

Full Credit wrote:
damngoodOvalball wrote:That said, the victory in Oz was based on totally demolishing them up front.
...that, and Giteau missing a sitter from right in front that my grandmother could have knocked over.

I think England will do it very tough over there with the big stadiums and vocal crowds. Not the mention that the boks will be looking to atone for the RWC. Hard to go past 3-0.

Read the above from the SA posters. The SA team will be denuded of experience and leadership and some of their best players. Still 3-0? That's harsh.

by eirebilly Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:15 pm

Portnoy wrote:I vote 0-0

On the basis that all games will be drawn or there will be an horrendous incident that will prevent the tour going on.

The second is more likely than the first.

You are way out there at times arent you Portnoy Laugh

by Full Credit Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:22 pm

South Africa have no shortage of players able to step up, especially at home. There's still a lot of super xv between now and then so I guess anything's possible with injuries. 2:1 is a distinct possibility as well and while I'm not predicting thrashings I just think SA will be too hungry.

by eirebilly Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:24 pm

I am sure that the Saffers will be up for the match but i still believe that England will get a win or two.

by **Biltong** Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:30 pm

The biggest problem with this series is SA at this point is a total unknown.

We don't know who Meyer's assistants will be yet.
We don't know who he will select.
We don't know what style he wants to play.
We don't know whether the talks he has had with Matfield and Du Preez is to bring them back.
We don't trust him yet as he might show too much of a bias toward the Bulls.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:31 pm

Triangulation wrote:

The SA team will be denuded of experience and leadership and some of their best players.

Wheresas England will go in with their most experienced squad in decades and absolutely not send another bunch of kids down south to get emabressed?

by Triangulation Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:43 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Triangulation wrote:

The SA team will be denuded of experience and leadership and some of their best players.

Wheresas England will go in with their most experienced squad in decades and absolutely not send another bunch of kids down south to get emabressed?

What's with the sarcasm wheeler? Not necessary is it.

I am well aware of our level of inexperience going into this. Or are you saying that well likely rest some of the more experienced hands from the 6N campaign and bring in (too many ) more new caps?

Explain yourself man!

by eirebilly Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:53 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Triangulation wrote:

The SA team will be denuded of experience and leadership and some of their best players.

Wheresas England will go in with their most experienced squad in decades and absolutely not send another bunch of kids down south to get emabressed?

Those kids havent done too badly so far now have they?

by Taylorman Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:01 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Christ do the All Blacks often win there?

Hi ya Hammer, Our record there is Won 8 lost 7 since 2000 and whatever years you pick since say 92 when SA came back we are never more than one or two tests ahead if that so for us by far the hardest place to play.

I've gone 3-0 purely for that reason, and the fact that England also find it tough there. This will be a tough, all up front exciting battle with both sides very forward oriented. Meyer will know England's strengths will be up front and from what Biltong says he's largely in the same camp.

It depends on which England goes out. At home they seem to have sorted out the off field social approach they took here last year but going away again will test them, many of the same players bound to be here.

They've announced the scrum is the way to go and that will carry them well. Just depends what Meyer can conjure up. SA's loss of Matfield, Bakkies and to some extent Smit will test them.

by mystiroakey Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:06 pm

well the chances of a draw would be something like 1 in 25 games!

the chances or a draw when it comes to england v SA in SA would be a realively average type of match up. its not like a NZ v holland but on the other hand the fav is at home which would bring down the chance of a draw some what.

so lets stick with a 25/1 shot!

so its 25 * 25 * 25 = 15625/1 shot for the series to end in 3 consecutive draws!!

there is more chance of a distaster in fairness!!

by A World Cup and 3 Finals Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:11 pm

Taylorman wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Christ do the All Blacks often win there?

Hi ya Hammer, Our record there is Won 8 lost 7 since 2000 and whatever years you pick since say 92 when SA came back we are never more than one or two tests ahead if that so for us by far the hardest place to play.

I've gone 3-0 purely for that reason, and the fact that England also find it tough there. This will be a tough, all up front exciting battle with both sides very forward oriented. Meyer will know England's strengths will be up front and from what Biltong says he's largely in the same camp.

It depends on which England goes out. At home they seem to have sorted out the off field social approach they took here last year but going away again will test them, many of the same players bound to be here.

They've announced the scrum is the way to go and that will carry them well. Just depends what Meyer can conjure up. SA's loss of Matfield, Bakkies and to some extent Smit will test them.

I sincerely hope you are right Taylor as as long as the saffas plan to defend against an all out forward orientated attack we should be fine. Since 1999 England's backs have outscored the other 5 nations in the 6 nations comprehensively but as rugby cliche (an for some an unwillingness to accept the truth), England are always labelled as a 10 man side, which is rubbish. I only hope that the saffas management are as naive and one eyed as the many posters on here but I fear that they won't be and plan arounn facing a 15 man assault instead.

by Triangulation Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:19 pm

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Christ do the All Blacks often win there?

Hi ya Hammer, Our record there is Won 8 lost 7 since 2000 and whatever years you pick since say 92 when SA came back we are never more than one or two tests ahead if that so for us by far the hardest place to play.

I've gone 3-0 purely for that reason, and the fact that England also find it tough there. This will be a tough, all up front exciting battle with both sides very forward oriented. Meyer will know England's strengths will be up front and from what Biltong says he's largely in the same camp.

It depends on which England goes out. At home they seem to have sorted out the off field social approach they took here last year but going away again will test them, many of the same players bound to be here.

They've announced the scrum is the way to go and that will carry them well. Just depends what Meyer can conjure up. SA's loss of Matfield, Bakkies and to some extent Smit will test them.

I sincerely hope you are right Taylor as as long as the saffas plan to defend against an all out forward orientated attack we should be fine. Since 1999 England's backs have outscored the other 5 nations in the 6 nations comprehensively but as rugby cliche (an for some an unwillingness to accept the truth), England are always labelled as a 10 man side, which is rubbish. I only hope that the saffas management are as naive and one eyed as the many posters on here but I fear that they won't be and plan arounn facing a 15 man assault instead.

Well said that man. Dont read too much into the irish game during which the ball was a bar of soap and you were almost better off without it. Also bear in mind that this side HAVE WON AWAY FROM HOME in Edinburgh, Rome and PARIS.

by Taylorman Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:40 pm

Triangulation wrote: Since 1999 England's backs have outscored the other 5 nations in the 6 nations comprehensively but as rugby cliche (an for some an unwillingness to accept the truth), England are always labelled as a 10 man side, which is rubbish.

It might well be a cliche but forward dominance can just as easily result in backs scoring tries through the initial pressure asserted, opposition forced back to their line etc.

Other than intercepts how many were both initiated and scored by the backs without needing multiple phases or a dominant scrum/ lineout position as its foundation?

Last year or two Oz scored tries and made breaks from less than the sniff of an oily rag and sometimes going backwards. France can do the same. England wouldnt quite be described in that light. Ashton's try a couple of years ago stands out as the type I mean.

by mystiroakey Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:56 pm

all i can say taylor is that england looked the better running team v aus last time the two sides matched up.

the 'yeah france can do it' is a ludicrous cliche- because i can think of better rugby played by wales and england over the last few years an all!!

by damngoodOvalball Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:25 pm

Full Credit wrote:
damngoodOvalball wrote:That said, the victory in Oz was based on totally demolishing them up front.
...that, and Giteau missing a sitter from right in front that my grandmother could have knocked over.

To be fair Wilko missed an easy pen immediately before Giteau's and both were terrible efforts. Anyway a win is a win so we'll take it. Last NH team to beat one of the big 3 at home!
However, as I mentioned earlier, I'd feel more confident of a Test win if we England were heading to Oz than SA. Cant wait for the the Tests anyway. Anyone know when/where they are?

by EnglishReign Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:28 pm

damngoodOvalball wrote:
Full Credit wrote:
damngoodOvalball wrote:That said, the victory in Oz was based on totally demolishing them up front.
...that, and Giteau missing a sitter from right in front that my grandmother could have knocked over.

To be fair Wilko missed an easy pen immediately before Giteau's and both were terrible efforts. Anyway a win is a win so we'll take it. Last NH team to beat one of the big 3 at home!
However, as I mentioned earlier, I'd feel more confident of a Test win if we England were heading to Oz than SA. Cant wait for the the Tests anyway. Anyone know when/where they are?

Not only that but Giteau dived for it after bumping into Hape. Justice done.

by **Biltong** Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:30 pm

9 South Africa v England Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
16 South Africa v England Coca Cola Park, Johannesburg
23 South Africa v England Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth

by wasps Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:35 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Triangulation wrote: Since 1999 England's backs have outscored the other 5 nations in the 6 nations comprehensively but as rugby cliche (an for some an unwillingness to accept the truth), England are always labelled as a 10 man side, which is rubbish.

It might well be a cliche but forward dominance can just as easily result in backs scoring tries through the initial pressure asserted, opposition forced back to their line etc.

Other than intercepts how many were both initiated and scored by the backs without needing multiple phases or a dominant scrum/ lineout position as its foundation?

Last year or two Oz scored tries and made breaks from less than the sniff of an oily rag and sometimes going backwards. France can do the same. England wouldnt quite be described in that light. Ashton's try a couple of years ago stands out as the type I mean.

Forward dominance sucking in defenders and then scoring through the backs isn't 10-man rugby.
It's wise rugby.

Even the All Blacks play that way if they can.....
They're just better at it than most, and don't need so many phases to suck the defenders in
(and their backs seem to be able to work with less space than anyone elses)

by Duty281 Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:37 pm

2-1 England for me. Why? A chance that the South Africans might be complacent and pure heart rose

by damngoodOvalball Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:38 pm

cheers biltong

by eirebilly Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:44 pm

Has SL officially been given the tour?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:48 pm

Nope mallet is being interviewed today.
The only thing i see swinging it is if Lancaster is unwilling to take on someone like Smith to help out or if they cant find a high profile SH technical coach to join his team.
Mallet has a whole team assembled behind him of top notch guys. With Farrell playing coy ( presumably to protect his position at saracens and to snide a pay rise) Lancasters crew is a bit bare. Would a top end coach be willing to work under him?
I think most of us are working on the assumption that the RFUs hand has been forced toward Lancaster now regardless.

by eirebilly Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:54 pm

Why would a top end coach not want to work under SL? Te England job and the coaches involved is a pretty decent job still.

by mystiroakey Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:55 pm

i think mallet will get it,

by gregortree Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:05 pm

Wasps :

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:29 pm

eirebilly wrote:Why would a top end coach not want to work under SL? Te England job and the coaches involved is a pretty decent job still.

Would you wanted to drink from a poisoned chalice heald by a man you know little about, on top of that knowing Rob Andrews pulling the strings?

I dont know. Someone like Smith would have to think hard before committing to a reputation ruining job like England, the hit list has been pretty brutal in recent years. Theyd certainly be more likely to want the job if they knew they were first choice of whoever the head coach is, and not imposed on that coach and if theyd had a chance to talk liong and hard with them about the direction they want to take the team in and their own role in that.
It is potentially a very good job, but potentially a bloody awful one too. So many of the problems in recent years have come from teams being assembled without all parties being comfortable with the arrangements.
Im sure he would be able to find people willing to come in and work with him, but he may not have names on the table now with definate commitments. I would hope the RFU would want more than just " well if you give me the job I was planning on ringing up all mallets mates and seeing if theyd work for me instead".

Im speculating wildly here obviously. I was just trying to come up with some possible reason why the RFU would risk upsetting the internet that much by appointing someone other than Lancaster. Mallets last interview made it pretty clear what he thought the situation was. The fact he isnt even the panels first choice without Lancaster ( that was White) weakens his position even more.

by dragonbreath Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:20 pm

And you guys think us Welsh are blowing smoke up our own holes. 2-1 don't make me laughing

Exactly what tools do England have to outscore SA on hard fast pitches. All answers on a postcard to the RFU

by mystiroakey Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:21 pm

allright mitey?

by eirebilly Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:07 am

dragonbreath wrote:And you guys think us Welsh are blowing smoke up our own holes. 2-1 don't make me

Exactly what tools do England have to outscore SA on hard fast pitches. All answers on a postcard to the RFU

Well i would hazard a guess that they have a decent scrum, a fair bit of self belief and a decent defence. I honestly feel that they will win one test against the Saffers based on that. They will all be fairly close games mind.

by fa0019 Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:06 am

dragonbreath

Durban and PE do not have hard pitches. Both are on the coast and will host the matches during the SA autumn. Durban gets near double the amount of rain that London gets.

SA is the size of western Europe... the climate and subsequent pitches of the Cape and Natal differ significantly from your 'hard pitches' of Bloemfontein for instance.

Personally I think ENG have a better chance of beating SA in 1 or more of their test matches then WAL do against AUS.

SA are a team in transition, have lost all their leaders to retirement (Smit, Matfield, Du Preez), need to completely rework their lineout and no longer have a dominant front five to give their kicking 10 a platform... as well as a new coach.

AUS on the other hand have lost hardly any players to retirement and have kept their coach; they're a well settled side and if Cooper returns in time I reckon they look good for winning the 4N title (given NZ also have transitional issues).... not least never looked troubled by WAL in their last 2 matches in late 2011.... and now they will be at home.

by dragonbreath Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am

fa0019 wrote:dragonbreath

Durban and PE do not have hard pitches. Both are on the coast and will host the matches during the SA autumn. Durban gets near double the amount of rain that London gets.

SA is the size of western Europe... the climate and subsequent pitches of the Cape and Natal differ significantly from your 'hard pitches' of Bloemfontein for instance.

Personally I think ENG have a better chance of beating SA in 1 or more of their test matches then WAL do against AUS.

SA are a team in transition, have lost all their leaders to retirement (Smit, Matfield, Du Preez), need to completely rework their lineout and no longer have a dominant front five to give their kicking 10 a platform... as well as a new coach.

AUS on the other hand have lost hardly any players to retirement and have kept their coach; they're a well settled side and if Cooper returns in time I reckon they look good for winning the 4N title (given NZ also have transitional issues).... not least never looked troubled by WAL in their last 2 matches in late 2011.... and now they will be at home.

If you are looking for an argument from me regarding Wales' chances in Aus you won't get one. By the same token England have very little chance in SA. They may not be humbled but they simply do not have the attacking tools to score the number of points that will be necessary to actually win. Good defence reduces the total required to take victory but IMO it will still be around 20 at a minimum. Can't see where those points will come from Tumbleweed

.

by **Biltong** Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:06 am

dragonbreath you may have a point, the one thing SA will still be able to do is score 15-20 points with the boot of Morne Steyn and the odd long dsitance penalty.

But I reserve judgement on how Meyer is going to make his selections and if he takes a very conservative approach, we might rue it.

by fa0019 Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:11 am

Any team that scores 5 tries vs. FRA & IRE in successive matches are not a bad attacking side and they have enough in their arsenal to trouble the boks.
Sure they will have to play well and play better than they have for a while but I think they have a reasonable chance.

I would say most of us here in SA actually believe ENG will be a tough test series and its unlikely the boks will come away with a 3-0 whitewash... for bok fans to be that frank about a NH side is rare.

by **Biltong** Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:21 am

FA, i think the biggest contributing factor for most SA fans at this point is because they are unsure of Meyer's intnetion and forward plans.

There is a lot we don't know yet.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:26 am

dragonbreath wrote:
fa0019 wrote:dragonbreath

Durban and PE do not have hard pitches. Both are on the coast and will host the matches during the SA autumn. Durban gets near double the amount of rain that London gets.

SA is the size of western Europe... the climate and subsequent pitches of the Cape and Natal differ significantly from your 'hard pitches' of Bloemfontein for instance.

Personally I think ENG have a better chance of beating SA in 1 or more of their test matches then WAL do against AUS.

SA are a team in transition, have lost all their leaders to retirement (Smit, Matfield, Du Preez), need to completely rework their lineout and no longer have a dominant front five to give their kicking 10 a platform... as well as a new coach.

AUS on the other hand have lost hardly any players to retirement and have kept their coach; they're a well settled side and if Cooper returns in time I reckon they look good for winning the 4N title (given NZ also have transitional issues).... not least never looked troubled by WAL in their last 2 matches in late 2011.... and now they will be at home.

If you are looking for an argument from me regarding Wales' chances in Aus you won't get one. By the same token England have very little chance in SA. They may not be humbled but they simply do not have the attacking tools to score the number of points that will be necessary to actually win. Good defence reduces the total required to take victory but IMO it will still be around 20 at a minimum. Can't see where those points will come from .

Stop being realistic and fair, its not becoming of a Welshman commenting on England.
I would counter that with a rare bit of optimism. England do have some very good attacking backs, if they can get into the game. I suspect Youngs will win back his starting shirt, hes one of those players who can conjure points out of nothing at times. Even if England have the same tepid gameplan and the conservaitive Farrell outside him he can just conjure up a try, yes SA will be aware of his tap and go but so were Ireland...all teams should always be aware of that yet Youngs keeps catching people out with it. In general play he can snipe effectively too, if he starts doing that again for England it will keep the defence in two minds and eitehr create breaks directly or space elsewhere. Tuilagi is another player with that X factor, a player who can score tries against the run of play through sheer inddivudal briliance. Foden at fullback will be happy to have Steyn kick the ball to him, if the chase isnt good he will relish the opportunity to run it back. Tom Croft and Morgan in the backrow...sure they wont get such an easy ride against an SA pack but they both can make breaks form nothing...one through sheer pace the other through power. Croft is a proven attacking force at all levels.
Theres a number of players in the England side who can creat tries and opportunities even when the side is playing uncreative rugby. Now if they can add that extra dimension as well and get the wingers into the game, create overlaps and line breaks etc...well they have guys like Ashton who should be able o finish things off.

As they get more condifent in their pack and their abilities England will look to become more expansive. Lancaster isnt a conservative coach by nature, and if Farrell doenst stay then we will probably see the backs play in a very very different way under someone like Smith. With consistency we should see better organisation and communication between the players, when they try moves they should come off more often.

Id agree the side that played in the 6 nations looks like one that wont score many tries in SA. Im just being optimistic the one that goes there might do a better job with the ball in hand. They may of course get smacked off the park by the saffer pack in which case what the backs can do as an attacking force will become irrelevant.

by fa0019 Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:26 am

biltongbek

I agree, once the boks get a settled side I think they will be near impossible to beat at home... albeit in a different manner than they had done in the past (their team will no longer beat up all comers up front but probably dominate through their skills to outplay them elsewhere).

by dragonbreath Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:33 am

fa0019 wrote:Any team that scores 5 tries vs. FRA & IRE in successive matches are not a bad attacking side and they have enough in their arsenal to trouble the boks.
Sure they will have to play well and play better than they have for a while but I think they have a reasonable chance.

I would say most of us here in SA actually believe ENG will be a tough test series and its unlikely the boks will come away with a 3-0 whitewash... for bok fans to be that frank about a NH side is rare.

I have to take you at your word. However if the SA public is genuinely worried about England they must be delighted we are going to Aus. If you saw the France and Ireland games and still consider England a potent attacking threat then you must be worried about your defence. In fairness the effort against France was excellent but it was one bright light in a series of very poor offensive efforts. It is also difficult seeing them establish the platform in the scrum against SA to score in the manner they did against Ireland.

Hey I may be wrong but I really don't think so. Wales

by fa0019 Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:44 am

I don't think you'll find anyone in SA backing ENG to win and they thoroughly expect to win the series but this SA side ain't going to come out all guns blazing.

This isn't like 2004 when JW took over and brought back already etablished players back into the fold and won the 3N... the challenges are different and Meyer will need to develop a side near from scratch.... come the AI's I think the format will be well in place but during the ENG series and the 4N it will very much be trial and error.

If WAL were to come to SA then I think it would be a 60-40 toss up between who wins the series (with experience and home advantage favouring the boks).

ENG won't dominate SA in the scrum but neither shall SA... it will be pretty neutral. SA have no real ready replacement for Bakkies and no lineout king like Matfield. But it takes away what was almost taken for granted by the boks backrow and halfbacks over the last 8 years... a front foot platform... and when that disappears the game becomes much more difficult.

by **Biltong** Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:13 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Any team that scores 5 tries vs. FRA & IRE in successive matches are not a bad attacking side and they have enough in their arsenal to trouble the boks.
Sure they will have to play well and play better than they have for a while but I think they have a reasonable chance.

I would say most of us here in SA actually believe ENG will be a tough test series and its unlikely the boks will come away with a 3-0 whitewash... for bok fans to be that frank about a NH side is rare.

I have to take you at your word. However if the SA public is genuinely worried about England they must be delighted we are going to Aus. If you saw the France and Ireland games and still consider England a potent attacking threat then you must be worried about your defence. In fairness the effort against France was excellent but it was one bright light in a series of very poor offensive efforts. It is also difficult seeing them establish the platform in the scrum against SA to score in the manner they did against Ireland.

Hey I may be wrong but I really don't think so.

We aren't worried about england, we are worried about our new coach, new team, new selections, new game plan, new assistant coaches, new focus and the fact that the nly thing we know at this moment is Heyneke Meyer is appointed, nothing else.

Be it England, France, Ireland, Wales, Australia or NZ.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:16 pm

dragonbreath wrote: a series of very poor offensive efforts

Time to bring armitage back, he was a pretty offensive guy

by fa0019 Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:20 pm

biltongbek

You do know that Morne Steyn will start at 10..... you could put 1MM R on that in the bookies and probably only get enough to wash your car windows back in return.

by **Biltong** Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:20 pm

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