Is Irish rugby at a tipping point?

Disappointing RWC (save the Oz game) and 6Ns.

And will the Provincial be able to recover the pride?

At least they have a guaranteed semi-final spot. http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/club-rugby/heineken-cup.

But many Irish posters seem to have gone AWOL on this site.

Portnoy wrote:

But many Irish posters seem to have gone AWOL on this site.

Not too many judging by the length some of the Irish threads go on for.

Well the Irish posters on ere do tend to discuss, summarise, analyse, summarsie, counter post, post, summarise, conclude, confirm the conclusion, re-analyse, counter post, summarise etc.

True,so does that mean that we're the laziest nation on 606 since most of us do this from work?

I feel Kidney need to refresh his coaching staff. He did so well with Munster, I think he should at least be given some time, but with a fresh impetus. Let's not start getting like fussball and changing our coaches every cycle of the moon.

In a word, No.

Ireland didnt have a great 6nations, or world cup, but they still reached the quarters and it was only really their game against england that was a downer this 6nations. One of the big reasons for that was losing their only tighthead and the English front row being possessed.

Their provinces are strong, and the difference between them and the test side is motivation, a gameplan the players fit in to and quality at tighthead after Mike Ross.

Scotland, now Scotland I fear for unless something puts a rocket up its proverbial. A lot blame the coach, and selection was pretty pants, but the players on the field just made wrong decision after wrong decision at crucial moments, theres nothing the coach could do about that. If robinson starts to give the exciting youngsters a go, they could really start to deserve their constant "dark horse" tag. For now though, wooden spoon, badtimes.

No, it's difficult to be worried for the long term when the provincial foundations are so strong. We just have a coaching team that's lost the plot and doesn't look like finding it.

Will the Provinces' confidence be shaken at all on the back of recent national performances?

It'll probably take a few weeks to de-Kidnify the players. Can't see how the last match wouldn't knock their confidence. Last year Leinsters least fluent and worst performance was against Tigers in Dublin. Luckily we had earned home advantage and Nacewa popped up with an individual try. By the time we met Toulouse we were back on track.

But then again the last thing the provinces did before the 6 Nations was that three stormed into the quarter finals and Connacht beat England's top team. Ireland then immediately lost at home to Wales, with a dreadful gameplan. So maybe there's no correlation and the provincial coaches will ease the internationals back in no problem?

biltongbek wrote:Well the Irish posters on ere do tend to discuss, summarise, analyse, summarsie, counter post, post, summarise, conclude, confirm the conclusion, re-analyse, counter post, summarise etc.

Why can't they just let the stats do the talking?!

Everyone is still about on here. We just tend to congregate on Irish threads.

Standulstermen wrote:Everyone is still about on here. We just tend to congregate on Irish threads.

Ah, right, skulking then?

I can't bring myself to even read Welsh and English threads at the moment I'm afraid. To bitter and jealous.

I think the situation for Ireland at present, is exactly the same as Wales, just vice versa.

The difference between the regions/provinces and the test sides is the difference in coaching.

I dont see this 6nations results radically effecting the regions/provinces performances, the welsh players will have an extra spring in their step, but the Irish lads seem to have that when they're playing for their provinces anyway.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Well the Irish posters on ere do tend to discuss, summarise, analyse, summarsie, counter post, post, summarise, conclude, confirm the conclusion, re-analyse, counter post, summarise etc.

Why can't they just let the stats do the talking?!

Now you're talking, but imagine you have to provide those over analytical types statistics, these threads will NEVER end.

I don't understand this idea that Ireland lost because they got bullied in the scrum. Yes it was difficult conditions at times, but we only have to look to two examples where teams have been stuffed up front and still come out on top:

Oz v Eng (2010) - OZ conceded two penalty tries and still won the game

Northampton v Munster 2012 - Munster stuffed Saints even though their scrum was permanently in reverse.

To me the performance was more symptomatic of a loss of faith in the whole project. Yes POC and BOD weren't there, but you can't just rely on motivational players. Look at England for that. No real top 'leaders' as such but all bought into the experience.

I feel Kidney needs to shake up the coaches and start identifying some young talent in positions of weakness. That includes some balance to the backrow!

Feckless Rogue wrote:I can't bring myself to even read Welsh and English threads at the moment I'm afraid. To bitter and jealous.

Most likely the most sensible thing to do mate, unless you are in the mood for some "my dad is bigger than your dad" repostes.

Once again last year, the IRFU repeated the ludicrous decision of 2007 to reappoint (albeit this time for only two years) the incumbent coach.

This time last year, Kidney was a bit of a demi-god. Now you couldn't sell him off in a tombola.

And

Don't tell me that HEC opposition sides won't have noticed the best of the best of Ireland's (available) front five.

Irish rugby, in my opinion is on a tipping point.

I see so many correlations between English rugby circa 2004 and Ireland now.

Portnoy wrote:

This time last year, Kidney was a bit of a demi-god. Now you couldn't sell him off in a tombola.

Not on here,he's been criticised fairly stongly for almost 2 years now as he has brought this team in into near terminal decline.

I don't recall too many posts condemning Kidney's reappointment Asore,

Mind you I was then still being loyal to 606v1 until the last minute at that time.

Portnoy wrote:I don't recall too many posts condemning Kidney's reappointment Asore,

Mind you I was then still being loyal to 606v1 until the last minute at that time.

Most of us felt he deserved the chance to lead us to the WC but needed to show serious signs of improvement after that.

Yeah there wasn't too many people condemning his reappointment,it was more a general criticism of his selections and tactics.

The issue with kidney last year was that he probably deserved an RWC given he delivered a slam. After the RWC he had a chance to bring through new talent and has failed. He should resign IMO but I doesn't look likely

There were plenty who drew parallels with his new contract and that given to eddie. To a man nearly everyone thought it was a bad idea.

We're about to Tip Kidney? Yeah...that might tie in with the title.

At the moment we're backing him in nicely, very carefully... the beep, beep, beep going for vehicle reversing as it gets closer to the Ex-Irish Coach pile.

Standulstermen wrote:The issue with kidney last year was that he probably deserved an RWC given he delivered a slam. After the RWC he had a chance to bring through new talent and has failed. He should resign IMO but I doesn't look likely

There were plenty who drew parallels with his new contract and that given to eddie. To a man nearly everyone thought it was a bad idea.

"He should resign IMO"

Contracts dear boy, contracts.

Mind you this time next year he could be another Jackie Charlton.

Portnoy wrote:
Mind you this time next year he could be another Jackie Charlton.

A man in waders with a big rod?

Portnoy wrote:This time last year, Kidney was a bit of a demi-god. Now you couldn't sell him off in a tombola.

That's nonsense. Kidney has been taking flak for poor performances since we lost to Scotland in 2010.

Portnoy wrote:Don't tell me that HEC opposition sides won't have noticed the best of the best of Ireland's (available) front five.

They'll have noticed the not inconsiderable presence of top-class props like John Afoa and BJ Botha the national side does not have available to them. Ulster would not select Tom Court at tighthead unless Dublin forced him too for instance- he's well down the pecking order at tighthead. I have no concerns about our provinces tight fives bar the fact that we aren't getting enough Irish qualified tightheads gametime.

The national side is at a tipping point but the provinces are in a truly rude health.

Could the small number of provinces impact depth in the end? They can be very strong but if small in number with a smattering of foreign players, does it impact how many players can play at a good level?

Just interested. I sometimes think Eng have too many teams and could do with a few region guaranteed HC cup entry and ensuring their players all know each other really well.

I read that Ross is fine.

Did he bottle it against England?

If I had to say anything about the state of game in Ireland, I'd say we've become a bit obsessed with provincial success at the expense of whats best for our national side. I see some Ulster fans saying we need a top NIQ 10 to partner Pienaar at 9 for instance! Never mind that Ulster have had the two most recent Ireland U20s outhalves and they need gametime to develop.

But the IRFU had already been taking steps to limit this before the tournament even began this year. New, more stringent rules over NIQ players are on the way and each NIQ signing needs to be directly approved by the IRFU.

I think the game against England was a wake up call and while Ireland may be in a slump for one or two years, we'll come back stronger than ever.

Sin é wrote:I read that Ross is fine.

Did he bottle it against England?

That is so totally disrespectful...

Normally this is the time when EOS appears on the radar. His nickname should be vulture or the Eddie the Tow Truck Driver which are both synonymous with one another.

This illustrates my thread I wrote that one game makes a big difference. To me Ireland responded admirably to the loss against Wales and improved throughout the tournament avoiding their usual defeat in Paris and then suddenly they lose by a big margin to England and suddenly the rails have come off and all is lost. Doom and gloom. It´s like analysing the share market. One little drop and then suddenly sell sell sell this irrational fear takes over and suddenly what has happened before counts for nothing.

Take a deep breath. Wait for the NZ tour. Then by all means bring up this thread.

Notch wrote:If I had to say anything about the state of game in Ireland, I'd say we've become a bit obsessed with provincial success at the expense of whats best for our national side. I see some Ulster fans saying we need a top NIQ 10 to partner Pienaar at 9 for instance! Never mind that Ulster have had the two most recent Ireland U20s outhalves and they need gametime to develop.

But the IRFU had already been taking steps to limit this before the tournament even began this year. New, more stringent rules over NIQ players are on the way and each NIQ signing needs to be directly approved by the IRFU.

I think the game against England was a wake up call and while Ireland may be in a slump for one or two years, we'll come back stronger than ever.

But of course the whole of Ireland has to produce fifteen players of quality with a couple of World class performers.

Plus depth.

Only now are all those conditions being truly tested.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:I read that Ross is fine.

Did he bottle it against England?

That is so totally disrespectful...

Not really. Most the team bottled it*, so he wasn't alone.

Ireland lost the very first scrum.

*exceptions: Best, Ferris, D Ryan & Kearney.

Edit: and as the moral high ground police here, why don't you berate those who are saying that Kidney should resign because that is disrespectful as well.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Could the small number of provinces impact depth in the end? They can be very strong but if small in number with a smattering of foreign players, does it impact how many players can play at a good level?

Just interested. I sometimes think Eng have too many teams and could do with a few region guaranteed HC cup entry and ensuring their players all know each other really well.

If the IRFU can manage this next 8 or 9 years successfully I think that will be the answer to your query. I don't think it can be truly answered yet (we don't know) because we're really only 10 years into the experiment and this next decade will be the clincher that will decide whether the project (IRFU blueprint) is sustainable.

Already the stresses are beginning to show. The first ten years were easy to control because they've been development ones. Development of Provincial structures, development of acadamies, perfecting the inducements used to keep our best players at home, fine tuning the player protection programme to try and sustain careers for longer. That's all being going on as we waited for the plyaers to come through that funnel. We got by because we kinda knew who best players were over the last ten years and that was because there was little in the way of back up coming through.

Now, the system has bedded down and the pressures of young players churning through the system and waiting for their time is beginning to bite. You could say Ireland have a glut of players now, and many of them are languishing on the sidelines looking for more gametime. The IRFU are rethinking their plans, trying to modify them to release the pressures but that's where we are - we really can't tell how Provinces will perform into the next decade or whether the International team will benefit from homegrown or foreign playing players.

Interesting points cheers.

Time will indeed tell.

I think Eng are only now seeing the results of huge improvements to youth development put in during SCW's time too. Easy to forget how rubbish they were at youth level prior to that and how they've really changed that.

Hopefully both can stay strong as a result of these changes.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
This illustrates my thread I wrote that one game makes a big difference. To me Ireland responded admirably to the loss against Wales and improved throughout the tournament avoiding their usual defeat in Paris and then suddenly they lose by a big margin to England and suddenly the rails have come off and all is lost. Doom and gloom. It´s like analysing the share market. One little drop and then suddenly sell sell sell this irrational fear takes over and suddenly what has happened before counts for nothing.

Take a deep breath. Wait for the NZ tour. Then by all means bring up this thread.

Well to be honest most of us on here don't really share that view.We view the drawn ame against France as yet another squandered opportunity brought about by a negative gameplan when we should have really gone and finished France off instead we retreated into our shell.

The England game is a writeoff as the scrum problems were insurmountable,I don't think anyone actually blames Kidney for that one.

It's 2 years of constant decline and failure that is causing the doom and gloom,we haven't just turned on Kidney over the last few weeks.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Normally this is the time when EOS appears on the radar. His nickname should be vulture or the Eddie the Tow Truck Driver which are both synonymous with one another.

This illustrates my thread I wrote that one game makes a big difference. To me Ireland responded admirably to the loss against Wales and improved throughout the tournament avoiding their usual defeat in Paris and then suddenly they lose by a big margin to England and suddenly the rails have come off and all is lost. Doom and gloom. It´s like analysing the share market. One little drop and then suddenly sell sell sell this irrational fear takes over and suddenly what has happened before counts for nothing.

Take a deep breath. Wait for the NZ tour. Then by all means bring up this thread.

That might have been your view from the outside, kia - and I appreciate the outside is the outside and can only see what it sees but there IS NO sudden doom and gloom reaction to an English loss in Ireland.

If you have been reading the Irish threads since the Six Nations begun (God help you!!! ) you'd know that most of us have been doom and gloom from day one.

Outsiders seems to have seen a very positive game against Wales. We didn't. We thought it stank (most of us!) Outsiders seem to think a draw for the plucky Irish in Paris was a good result. We don't. If you can win, you win - not sit on your hands for an entire second half taking needless pressure to hang onto a slender lead when you could be pushing forward the advantage to kill off French spirit.

Some outsiders seem to think Ireland should be content with their rightful place in mid-table 6N - a successful championship. I'm afraid our standards are higher. No, it hasn't been sudden doom and gloom from the Irish. That's been with us for roughly 3 years now.

Sin é wrote:I read that Ross is fine.

Did he bottle it against England?

Are you saying he was fine on Saturday or he's fine now?

No he didn't bottle it against Enland he got injured.

That's Mike Ross the Cork man? I don't think people from that Province bottle it...................

Portnoy wrote:

Notch wrote:If I had to say anything about the state of game in Ireland, I'd say we've become a bit obsessed with provincial success at the expense of whats best for our national side. I see some Ulster fans saying we need a top NIQ 10 to partner Pienaar at 9 for instance! Never mind that Ulster have had the two most recent Ireland U20s outhalves and they need gametime to develop.

But the IRFU had already been taking steps to limit this before the tournament even began this year. New, more stringent rules over NIQ players are on the way and each NIQ signing needs to be directly approved by the IRFU.

I think the game against England was a wake up call and while Ireland may be in a slump for one or two years, we'll come back stronger than ever.

But of course the whole of Ireland has to produce fifteen players of quality with a couple of World class performers.

Plus depth.

Only now are all those conditions being truly tested.

I think we already have the quality Portnoy though we do lack quantity (depth) That is where Kidney has failed to deliver with his reluctance to blood new talent unless forced to do so by injury. Even then the fit again usually step back into the team. The SOB/POM scenario being a case in point.

We aren't exactly at tipping point but we will need to tread carefully around the edges otherwise there may be an unplanned collapse. Take the right precautions at this stage and we will quickly recover. IMO the right precautions would be to ditch Deccie now and let a new coach/team get on with it.

Rava wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

Notch wrote:If I had to say anything about the state of game in Ireland, I'd say we've become a bit obsessed with provincial success at the expense of whats best for our national side. I see some Ulster fans saying we need a top NIQ 10 to partner Pienaar at 9 for instance! Never mind that Ulster have had the two most recent Ireland U20s outhalves and they need gametime to develop.

But the IRFU had already been taking steps to limit this before the tournament even began this year. New, more stringent rules over NIQ players are on the way and each NIQ signing needs to be directly approved by the IRFU.

I think the game against England was a wake up call and while Ireland may be in a slump for one or two years, we'll come back stronger than ever.

But of course the whole of Ireland has to produce fifteen players of quality with a couple of World class performers.

Plus depth.

Only now are all those conditions being truly tested.

I think we already have the quality Portnoy though we do lack quantity (depth) That is where Kidney has failed to deliver with his reluctance to blood new talent unless forced to do so by injury. Even then the fit again usually step back into the team. The SOB/POM scenario being a case in point.

We aren't exactly at tipping point but we will need to tread carefully around the edges otherwise there may be an unplanned collapse. Take the right precautions at this stage and we will quickly recover. IMO the right precautions would be to ditch Deccie now and let a new coach/team get on with it.

Rav, there has been a long term reliance on talismanic players and the Gibbo 'Believe!' factor on the up-coming generation.

But are there any extraordinary players in the new generation?

I still say SOB is. But no-one else. Sad to say.

I think Portnoy believes Ireland are going into decline like England did after 2003. I remember from old 606 that he always believed this would happen eventually and the 00's team was a highpoint for Irish rugby. I can see why he believes this given that Irish rugby was so poor for so long. The 00's was the exception and Ireland are gonna return to their rightful place in the bottom half of the 6 Nations.

I, on the other hand believe that Irish rugby has continued to improve at the level below international. The strength in depth is getting better. The provinces have brilliant squads and are not saturated with foreigners at all (apart from tighthead). This isn't being reflected in the test team because of a coach who has failed to adapt to the modern game and is playing a style of rugby that is never going to succeed.

Who's right? We'll have to wait and see. But I guess my theory can't be proven until Kidney is gone and hopefully a more attacking coach comes in.

Ferris,Kearney,Healy is still only 24,I think Luke Fitzgerald is about to make a reaal breakthrough over the next year too.(can you tell I'm from Leinster )

We also have plenty of young up and comers who I'd be very confident in.

Portnoy are you saying that of the current crop, guys like Healy, Earls and Sexton aren't genuinely world class?

There are a good few youngsters who could shine for us but they need to be tested at the highest level. i.e. on the International Stage.

I see guys like Zebo, Madigan, O'Malley, Marshall being more than well equipped for stardom.

Here's a question. Had we a bad RWC bar the Australia game or a good RWC minus the Wales game ?

Stag, given Wales' progression to GS within a few months I would say we had a reasonable World Cup with the highlight being a team inspired win over Australia.

I also remember when Ireland allegedly were 'good' - let's call them what Feckless calls them - the 00s. I remember particularly that Ireland often got stung by the prod that they were only looking good because the opposition were unfortunately often quite bad - ie, England and Wales underperforming and France being eternally mad!

So, does the same hold true now? Is the suggestion that Ireland are in decline and now 'bad' evidence that Wales and England aren't really all that good?

If someone can clarify, please do so.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I read that Ross is fine.

Did he bottle it against England?

Are you saying he was fine on Saturday or he's fine now?

No he didn't bottle it against Enland he got injured.

He is fine now.
When did he pick up his injury. Wasn't the first scrum in the 1st minute of the game or thereabouts?

SecretFly wrote:That's Mike Ross the Cork man? I don't think people from that Province bottle it...................

Yep, they do of course. If they didn't we'd have a couple of grand slams now.

Yeah it was.As far as I remember (I'll havce a search and see if I can find quotes) from Kidney said he played injured for 15 minutes so he must have got the injury around the 20th minute.I think I read somewhere that it's a niggle he has been manaing for months now.
The first scrum was lost because Healy dropped to his knee concedin a penalty.