Is Irish rugby at a tipping point?

First topic message reminder :

Disappointing RWC (save the Oz game) and 6Ns.

And will the Provincial be able to recover the pride?

At least they have a guaranteed semi-final spot. http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/club-rugby/heineken-cup.

But many Irish posters seem to have gone AWOL on this site.

red_stag wrote:Here's a question. Had we a bad RWC bar the Australia game or a good RWC minus the Wales game ?

A bad RWC bar Australia.

I know it because that's what we were saying at the time. We weren't blown away by Ireland against Australia. We said we liked the result but we weren't entirely comfortable with the methods (ie, again stopping a positive team rather than trying to unleash a positive brand ourselves). The players played wonderfully to the gameplan chosen but I think many in Ireland still saw it as a plan lacking in grace or invention.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think Portnoy believes Ireland are going into decline like England did after 2003. I remember from old 606 that he always believed this would happen eventually and the 00's team was a highpoint for Irish rugby. I can see why he believes this given that Irish rugby was so poor for so long. The 00's was the exception and Ireland are gonna return to their rightful place in the bottom half of the 6 Nations.

I, on the other hand believe that Irish rugby has continued to improve at the level below international. The strength in depth is getting better. The provinces have brilliant squads and are not saturated with foreigners at all (apart from tighthead). This isn't being reflected in the test team because of a coach who has failed to adapt to the modern game and is playing a style of rugby that is never going to succeed.

Who's right? We'll have to wait and see. But I guess my theory can't be proven until Kidney is gone and hopefully a more attacking coach comes in.

In that, Feckless, I think that you have summarised my thoughts precisely.

And equally you emphasise the question as to whether or not Irish and Provincial rugby is teetering upon an abyss.

Rava wrote:Portnoy are you saying that of the current crop, guys like Healy, Earls and Sexton aren't genuinely world class?

There are a good few youngsters who could shine for us but they need to be tested at the highest level. i.e. on the International Stage.

I see guys like Zebo, Madigan, O'Malley, Marshall being more than well equipped for stardom.

Tbh of the current crop I would see Ferris, Best and Kearney as being genuinely top class players. They are each in the top 3 in their position globally. The likes of Earls, Bowe, Sexton, Healy are very good players but back a bit in the rankings.

I don't see any of the other players you mentioned ever being world class players at all, possibly good enough for international rugby one day though.

Provincial rugby is in a fine state Portnoy. The foundations for more success are well established throughout the three main provinces with great strides being taken at Connacht to at least become competitive at Rabo level.

Portnoy wrote:And equally you emphasise the question as to whether or not Irish and Provincial rugby is teetering upon an abyss.

I think Ireland are good enough to remain in the Top 8 and hence go into the next World Cup in the same seeding position we have been in the last two. So far this season, the provincial teams are having their most successful season ever. Three provinces the last eight of the Heineken Cup for the first time.

There are tweaks and adjustments that need to be made to put us back on top of the 6N, but the situation is far from as dire as you make out. In many ways this Six Nations was no worse than last years, perhaps even slightly better.

I find it hard to see us being overtaken by Scotland or Italy at provincial or international level for instance.

Typical. Your'e trying to hold your own in a debate with an Englishman and someone from your own team slides in and takes the feet from under you.

Rava wrote: Typical. Your'e trying to hold your own in a debate with an Englishman and someone from your own team slides in and takes the feet from under you.

I was thinking that too.

OK. I'll follow (as always) the next twelve months of relative Irish performance with interest.

But the message I'm getting is jam tomorrow.

Before you go Portnoy...do have a little try at my question of earlier.

Does Ireland rubbish + French rubbish = Welsh + English "good but not great"?

Portnoy wrote:
But the message I'm getting is jam tomorrow.

Huh

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
But the message I'm getting is jam tomorrow.

Huh

Tomorrow's going to be better than today.

Portnoy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
But the message I'm getting is jam tomorrow.

Huh

Tomorrow's going to be better than today.

huh

also when ireland had a disasterous 6N in 2008 Munster won the HC.

Rava

Portnoys, probably be about the same tbh. Results are not great but there is clearly a lot of unfulfilled potential in this team- while we have issues with depth in certain positions it's a far cry from the 90s.

The frustration is we know there are just a few things that need to change for us to be up there competing for the Six Nations title, albeit injuries in certain positions could be devastating.

Personally i feel that Ireland are in one of the best shapes (player wise) i have seen for many a year. Underperforming but the quality is there

Chjw131 wrote:I don't understand this idea that Ireland lost because they got bullied in the scrum. Yes it was difficult conditions at times, but we only have to look to two examples where teams have been stuffed up front and still come out on top:

Oz v Eng (2010) - OZ conceded two penalty tries and still won the game

Northampton v Munster 2012 - Munster stuffed Saints even though their scrum was permanently in reverse.

To me the performance was more symptomatic of a loss of faith in the whole project. Yes POC and BOD weren't there, but you can't just rely on motivational players. Look at England for that. No real top 'leaders' as such but all bought into the experience.

I feel Kidney needs to shake up the coaches and start identifying some young talent in positions of weakness. That includes some balance to the backrow!

In the Northampton game, there were 9 scrums in total (and Northampton got 2 penalty tries).
In the England Ireland game, there were 22 scrums.

The reason Munster won was that they played the game in the right areas of the pitch and they had few handling errors. A more controlling outhalf would have been better than Ryan Lamb as well.

The conditions on Saturday was a big issue and it has to be said that Ireland were trying some stuff that they shouldn't have been because there were going to be handling errors. With a few leaders (POC/BOD) on the pitch, that could have been sorted out.

Sin é wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:I don't understand this idea that Ireland lost because they got bullied in the scrum. Yes it was difficult conditions at times, but we only have to look to two examples where teams have been stuffed up front and still come out on top:

Oz v Eng (2010) - OZ conceded two penalty tries and still won the game

Northampton v Munster 2012 - Munster stuffed Saints even though their scrum was permanently in reverse.

To me the performance was more symptomatic of a loss of faith in the whole project. Yes POC and BOD weren't there, but you can't just rely on motivational players. Look at England for that. No real top 'leaders' as such but all bought into the experience.

I feel Kidney needs to shake up the coaches and start identifying some young talent in positions of weakness. That includes some balance to the backrow!

In the Northampton game, there were 9 scrums in total (and Northampton got 2 penalty tries).
In the England Ireland game, there were 22 scrums.

The reason Munster won was that they played the game in the right areas of the pitch and they had few handling errors. A more controlling outhalf would have been better than Ryan Lamb as well.

The conditions on Saturday was a big issue and it has to be said that Ireland were trying some stuff that they shouldn't have been because there were going to be handling errors. With a few leaders (POC/BOD) on the pitch, that could have been sorted out.

You see I don't get that. How many times have we been guilty of this in the past and one or both of these have been on the pitch. It comes down to what way they have been sent out to play. I have never really seen evidence of our Captain actually changing the course of a game.

Sin é wrote:
The conditions on Saturday was a big issue and it has to be said that Ireland were trying some stuff that they shouldn't have been because there were going to be handling errors. With a few leaders (POC/BOD) on the pitch, that could have been sorted out.

I honestly don't hink it would have made a difference Sin,the number of scrums and the fact that we couldn't even cope on our own scrums meant we had no chance.

eirebilly wrote:Personally i feel that Ireland are in one of the best shapes (player wise) i have seen for many a year. Underperforming but the quality is there

Do you really believe that billy?

Where's the spine? And the potential talismans? And most importantly the depth.

You would have surely have had no problems in the centre this year had there had been any shape in the development of players in all positions.

That is exactly what is required. A full complement plus reserves in all positions.

Like NZ does and no-one else can.

If i want to name a player who i feel will be a talisman in the mould of BOD then i would name Kearney. Possible future captain as well.

I do believe that Ireland have the players but have just not found someone to make them gel. A few sporadic matches have shown just how good this side can be, with some consistency then i feel that Ireland will again be a very tough team to beat.

We have a few talismanic players but none of them are as strong leaders as O'Connell/O'Driscoll.

Paradoxically I think the absence of these players longer term would be a good thing because when they are there players look to them to lead. Without them players will need to take more responsibility.

BOD seems to believe that Sexton will captain the Irish side at some stage as well. It will always be difficult to replace leaders like BOD and POC but there is the talen out there for Ireland.

Rava wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:I don't understand this idea that Ireland lost because they got bullied in the scrum. Yes it was difficult conditions at times, but we only have to look to two examples where teams have been stuffed up front and still come out on top:

Oz v Eng (2010) - OZ conceded two penalty tries and still won the game

Northampton v Munster 2012 - Munster stuffed Saints even though their scrum was permanently in reverse.

To me the performance was more symptomatic of a loss of faith in the whole project. Yes POC and BOD weren't there, but you can't just rely on motivational players. Look at England for that. No real top 'leaders' as such but all bought into the experience.

I feel Kidney needs to shake up the coaches and start identifying some young talent in positions of weakness. That includes some balance to the backrow!

In the Northampton game, there were 9 scrums in total (and Northampton got 2 penalty tries).
In the England Ireland game, there were 22 scrums.

The reason Munster won was that they played the game in the right areas of the pitch and they had few handling errors. A more controlling outhalf would have been better than Ryan Lamb as well.

The conditions on Saturday was a big issue and it has to be said that Ireland were trying some stuff that they shouldn't have been because there were going to be handling errors. With a few leaders (POC/BOD) on the pitch, that could have been sorted out.

You see I don't get that. How many times have we been guilty of this in the past and one or both of these have been on the pitch. It comes down to what way they have been sent out to play. I have never really seen evidence of our Captain actually changing the course of a game.

I have seen it many times. BOD was magnificent in the Grand Slam year.

Compare the NZ v Ireland game that Heislip got red carded. Ireland conceeded a lot, but led by BOD, Ireland did not give up and stayed fighting until the end. They gave up at half time on Saturday.

I think the difference between say BOD & POC and the rest is that they are driven to succeed. I think Peter O'Mahony might be in that mold as well (having seeing how raging he was after losing to the Ospreys at the end of last year).

Its also the reason why I wonder about sending young players to Connacht. They need to learn early that losing isn't an option.

I'd still go for SOB as a talisman- and yes Kearney as he was one of the few who didn't go missing in action la last weekend.

but that is only one piece in the jig-saw - they do deed a comprehensive squad around them otherwise they'll compare with Scotland and Italy.

Oh - and Notch "We have a few talismanic players but none of them are as strong leaders as O'Connell/O'Driscoll." is a non-sequitor.

A talismanic player is one who has the ability to change a game through his own actions and inspires the rest of his team through that. That implies leadership.

SOB can't be a game changer from openside because it forces him spend a lot more time at the bottom of rucks, which he is just OK at, and prevents him from playing to his greatest strength; spectacularly good ball carrying.

Kidney has only ever played SOB at 7 I think. And he only picked him at 7 because David Wallace got injured. I'm convinced the coach is the problem.

It's true we are weaker in the centre than in the past, but Wales and England have weak area's too. Leinster are weaker in the center with the decline of D'arcy and BOD but you'd barely notice, because other's are stepping and causing the opposition problems.

The fact is there are 2 main problems with Kidney
1. Some selections are wrong and poor players aren't beingdropped.
2. The kick and chase game is redundant anyway and we'll find wins against good teams rare if we keep playing that way.

Feckless Rogue wrote:SOB can't be a game changer from openside because it forces him spend a lot more time at the bottom of rucks, which he is just OK at, and prevents him from playing to his greatest strength; spectacularly good ball carrying.

Kidney has only ever played SOB at 7 I think. And he only picked him at 7 because David Wallace got injured. I'm convinced the coach is the problem.

It's true we are weaker in the centre than in the past, but Wales and England have weak area's too. Leinster are weaker in the center with the decline of D'arcy and BOD but you'd barely notice, because other's are stepping and causing the opposition problems.

The fact is there are 2 main problems with Kidney
1. Some selections are wrong and poor players aren't being dropped.
2. The kick and chase game is redundant anyway and we'll find wins against good teams rare if we keep playing that way.

Kidney played SOB at 8 against Italy (Heislip was injured).

The main issue is that Heislip only plays No. 8, so he either starts or nothing.

Wayne Smiths view on Kicking

The kick has now become a significant attacking weapon. You might use it as an immediate attacking option, as Carter did when sliding a ball through from his own 22 to set up a try against South Africa in the 2011 Tri Nations. Or you might use it to prompt a weak defensive kick in return and create a ball to counter attack from as the All Blacks did against Australia at Eden Park last year.

The kick has also become a weapon to push around the opposition defence. Perhaps it always was. But a good kicker can drive the opposition wings further and further back. That creates a lot of grass between the back three and the frontline defence, new space for a kicker to exploit.

The All Blacks have a number of great kickers and they understand the part it plays in attack. There are Carter and Weepu and Cowan of course, but Conrad Smith is one of the best off either foot at the grubber kick in behind. Richard Kahui is another very good kicker and Ma’a Nonu has improved a lot in recent years.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/40-wayne-s-world-kicking-by-wayne-smith

What is the point of posting that Sin,do you think it somehow vindicates Declan Kidney?

Portnoys obsession with Irish rugby continues....

asoreleftshoulder wrote:What is the point of posting that Sin,do you think it somehow vindicates Declan Kidney?

Its illustrates that the former All Blacks coach thinks kicking is a useful weapon of attack. Its a pity our team isn't a bit more skilful with it (Earls & Kearney are the only two backs who have any sort of a kicking game). If they had that skill, Ireland wouldn't have to resort to the kick and chase game so often that Feckless detests so much.

Sin, I've no problem with good, smart kicking when the time is right. That's always been a good thing. It's aimlessly kicking the ball and kicking when there are better options that's the problem. Carter doesn't do that. The aimless ping pong was a scourge of the game under the old tackle laws because everyone knew that getting caught in possession was to risky. That's not the case any more. But we still do it.

There was nothing clever about kicking the ball down the throats of the Welsh backs in the first game. It continuously handed the initiative to a good side. And they scored three tries. Sure, you can do it against teams like Italy and Scotland and get away with it. But you'll lose more often than not against good teams. TOL's box kicks straight out on the full just heap pressure on us.

O'Gara used to use pinpoint kicks to the corners for a specific reason. To bring our dominant lineout to bare on the opposition and put the them under pressure in their own half. That was smart. Our current tactics are not. Obviously Kidney wants us to kick to win territory. But we're giving away possession. And under the new tackle laws (maybe not so new any more because it was 2010), we are simply giving the ball away and the good sides are retaining possession and winning back territory.

We're simply spending very little time with the ball in the opponents half and they're spending more time with the ball in our half. Obviously these tactics will result in defeat against good teams.

Kicking is a very useful tactic when employed well.

You can't bemoan our backs lack of kicking ability too much; ok, these skills need to be developed at the provinces and some players just naturally aren't as good at them.

But it is a) Part of Kidneys and his coaching staffs remit to work on execution of these skills and implement them tactically and b) come up with tactics best suited to the group of players we have.

I think our strategy is particularly weak in making the best of relatively small, skillful centres. I think Kidney is a good coach, just not the right coach.

Really can you then explain why RoG (I presume you won't dispute he has a decent kicking game) hasn't used these attacking kicks weapons in the last 2 years or so.I remember a couple of cross field kicks against the U.S. and Russia but in any meaningful match for Ireland in the last few years he hasn't done it either.

Maybe because Deccie really doesnt like that AsLs? He is not one for that sort of bravado

It´s just as well there´s a crisis on. God forbid times were good and you had a reason to smile.

Only kidding. I respect your high standards you set your team and I like the attitude that mid-table and a draw in France is not good enough.

Kidney seems to divide opinion but then so did EOS and Gatland before him ad nauseum. Who would replace him and how sure would you be that Ireland wouldn't be in the same mess after a few months?

One thing that has struck me each time Ireland has toured NZ is that they have been much more adventurous than at home and have scored a few tries. Will Kidney relish the spotlight from home not blaring away on him and will he open up Ireland´s attack thinking it´s the only way of winning. Or will he think conservative play is Ireland´s best bet and using the forwards to dominate NZ´s pack? If it´s the latter it could get ugly on here.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote: Who would replace him and how sure would you be that Ireland wouldn't be in the same mess after a few months?

I'm not sure who'd replace him,we all have people we'd like but whether they're available and would want the job is another question.It's all speculation anyway as Kidney isn't going to be sacked.

As to your second question,of course it's possible we'd be in the same mess in a few months but at least we'd have tried something whereas under Kidney there is no reason to believe that things will improve.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Really can you then explain why RoG (I presume you won't dispute he has a decent kicking game) hasn't used these attacking kicks weapons in the last 2 years or so.I remember a couple of cross field kicks against the U.S. and Russia but in any meaningful match for Ireland in the last few years he hasn't done it either.

He has had very limited game time in the last two years (he was a sub against US). Interesting at the weekend against England, O'gara handled the ball 11 times (3 kicks) and Sexton who was on for whole match only handled it 8 times (and kicked 3 times). Maybe Sexton is concentrating too much on defending.

Its not just enough for the outhalf to be able to kick tactically and break defences down, the rest of them need to be able to do it as well.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

O'Gara used to use pinpoint kicks to the corners for a specific reason. To bring our dominant lineout to bare on the opposition and put the them under pressure in their own half. That was smart. Our current tactics are not. Obviously Kidney wants us to kick to win territory. But we're giving away possession. And under the new tackle laws (maybe not so new any more because it was 2010), we are simply giving the ball away and the good sides are retaining possession and winning back territory.

We're simply spending very little time with the ball in the opponents half and they're spending more time with the ball in our half. Obviously these tactics will result in defeat against good teams.

We kicked less than England on Saturday (Kearney kicked most). England 30, Ireland 26.

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

O'Gara used to use pinpoint kicks to the corners for a specific reason. To bring our dominant lineout to bare on the opposition and put the them under pressure in their own half. That was smart. Our current tactics are not. Obviously Kidney wants us to kick to win territory. But we're giving away possession. And under the new tackle laws (maybe not so new any more because it was 2010), we are simply giving the ball away and the good sides are retaining possession and winning back territory.

We're simply spending very little time with the ball in the opponents half and they're spending more time with the ball in our half. Obviously these tactics will result in defeat against good teams.

We kicked less than England on Saturday (Kearney kicked most). England 30, Ireland 26.

Sin, that stat doesn't answer what I said at all. I said there's a difference between a smart kicking game and a bad one.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
Kidney seems to divide opinion but then so did EOS and Gatland before him ad nauseum. Who would replace him and how sure would you be that Ireland wouldn't be in the same mess after a few months?

We always get annoyed when things stagnate.

Gatland was beginning to stagnate with his most recent side too and was lucky enough or strong minded enough to say enough is enough - clear out some older players and give the new players the tools needed to play the game they want to play. But he too was on dodgy ground with Welsh fans not very long ago - it's important to know that - it keeps being forgotten now that they ride high and confident.

This idea you seem to project that Irish people are perhaps a little rash, a little too ambitious, a little unreal in their expectations for their team, isn't a unique trait to Irish people. All fans get annoyed when their team stagnates. Ireland has been in that phase for quite some time now. In the time you talk about Irish changes of coaches (humourosuly implying we always lose faith when our expectations outreach reality), how many changes of coaches have England gone through in roughly the same period?

O'Sullivan brought an Ireland side to 3rd in World rankings and then watched forlornly as they fell apart due to internal issues that still haven't been fully explained. He couldn't bring them back up, he was too close to the reasons they went down, so he had to go. Right decision, not a quick reflex action due to fickle fan pressure.

Gatland started very positively with Ireland - did a mini Wales on the side by getting rid of the old and introducing the new. But he became obsessed with looking over his shoulder at his backs coach (they didn't get on and EOS probably wanted Gatland's job) Gatland became paranoid and in my opinion closed down our backs unit to hurt EOS. We stagnated back to forward based rubbish and he had to go. Again, the right decision at the time. No coach should make a team suffer to play a leadership game with a rival.

There is no way even a neutral can look at Irish performances over the last few years and not come to the conclusion that coaching seems to be way below the standard required to produce consistent results at the highest level. Ireland doesn't keep making rash judgements on coaches. It chooses who it wants, those coaches perform for a time and then they start to drift off the pace. That's the time people begin to talk of change - in every nation.

I know Kearney and Earls are our only natural kickers in the backs but even they, for me, dont kick smart.

Aimless punts up field are the weakest part of Kearneys' game

BOD, who is not a natural kicker, when he does kick kicks smarter

Smart kicking is for smart plans.... ie, if your players are ready and drilled for smart kicking, it becomes an effective tool.

Aimless kicking is not a specific trait of the players mentioned, it IS a specific trait of this Irish side. I'd guess it's instructions and therefore my bald patches where I pull out my hair in frustration!

Ireland have never been stronger on the playing front with the players coming through and concentrated into 3/4 sides, with the HC as the provincial goal.

Ironically the commercial rug may be pulled from under them, as none other than JPR Williams believes the welsh structure will resort back to eight teams in the near future as their premier level, which if true, will clearly have implications for the Rabo12.

The french have never denied that the T14 is their ultimate prize. Given the salary cap and the injury rates in the English league, the premiership will potentially revert to being the main target, with an english club knockout competition taking over from the LV cup, which will also be a further reduction in income for the welsh regions.

Irish rugby has been going through a generational change for the last couple of seasons, with the next crop coming through generally rising to the challenge at Test level, the exception being props generally but that will be addressed in the fullness of time, given the small number of provincial sides to populate.

Irish sides are not looking into the abyss playing wise, but there are going to be some substantial commercial challenges not far down the line, which may put pressure on the current IRFU structure.

No way they will go with an 8 team premier league, they can't keep enough Welsh internationals at 4 regions due to financial restraints, 8 teams and all the top Welsh internationals will be heading abroad and they will have an 8 team premier league full of youngsters and journeymen with their top internationals only coming together to play for Wales - could be a disaster for the national team.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

O'Gara used to use pinpoint kicks to the corners for a specific reason. To bring our dominant lineout to bare on the opposition and put the them under pressure in their own half. That was smart. Our current tactics are not. Obviously Kidney wants us to kick to win territory. But we're giving away possession. And under the new tackle laws (maybe not so new any more because it was 2010), we are simply giving the ball away and the good sides are retaining possession and winning back territory.

We're simply spending very little time with the ball in the opponents half and they're spending more time with the ball in our half. Obviously these tactics will result in defeat against good teams.

We kicked less than England on Saturday (Kearney kicked most). England 30, Ireland 26.

Sin, that stat doesn't answer what I said at all. I said there's a difference between a smart kicking game and a bad one.

I think there is a bit more to O'Gara's kicking game than just kicking the corners. If none of the backs have a kicking game, that limits them as attacking options as well.

My point was that on Saturday, Ireland were not kicking that much and still lost.

Artful, It is nonetheless and interesting insight into welsh thinking - JPR Williams wouldnt say that without thought behind it. The Rabo12 and HC dont have to be the goal - in Wales it has always been about the national side.
My welsh mates believe you could get probably more fans (and income) supporting 8 teams than they currently achieve supporting four, but only if they can resurrect the local derbies, which create more home and away fans.

Logic would suggest consolidating into four would be the formula but that appears to not have worked.

As a season ticket holder to an english club, I do prefer the club model and would applaud the welsh if they chose to do so but recognise there are financial implications to work through.

geoff999rugby wrote:I know Kearney and Earls are our only natural kickers in the backs but even they, for me, dont kick smart.

Aimless punts up field are the weakest part of Kearneys' game

BOD, who is not a natural kicker, when he does kick kicks smarter

Kearney uses his kicking for defensive purposes mainly (as does the scrumhalfs) and not as an attacking weapon. Not having a kicking game is as bad as not being able to sidestep, pass or offload. You might never use it (Earls didn't on Sat), but the threat of it keeps the opposition thinking.

BOD used to have a poor game but worked on it. Luke Fitz had a good kicking game as well - both should make the plane to NZ in the summer.

Recwatcher wrote:Artful, It is nonetheless and interesting insight into welsh thinking - JPR Williams wouldnt say that without thought behind it. The Rabo12 and HC dont have to be the goal - in Wales it has always been about the national side.
My welsh mates believe you could get probably more fans (and income) supporting 8 teams than they currently achieve supporting four, but only if they can resurrect the local derbies, which create more home and away fans.

Logic would suggest consolidating into four would be the formula but that appears to not have worked.

As a season ticket holder to an english club, I do prefer the club model and would applaud the welsh if they chose to do so but recognise there are financial implications to work through.

If Welsh rugby pulls out of Pro12...nobody in Ireland will be able to put a gun to their head - they'll go and reform their clubs if they think Welsh rugby will improve because of it.

Then it will be up to Irish rugby to decide the way forward for it. They could still have their Rabo League with possibly two more Scottish and Italian sides forming and joining - Rabo Pro12. Or probably more likely for now, one extra Scottish and Italian side - Rabo Pro10. Given the Pro12 is possibly now a prep for HC for more than just the Irish sides at this stage, it'll be enough to keep the sides warmed up for the big trials of HC.

Or............ Ireland might do something off kilter and break up the Provinces into North/South entities - North Munster, South Munster etc.

Sacrilege!!!! Wash your mouth out with soap, Fly!

Relax, it's just a complete fantasy, my more sensitive Irish contributers!

But continuing the fantasy for a while for argument's sake - that creation of 8 sides from four could be the IRFU's solution to their own player glut problems. Not going to happen of course but I can tell you, North Munster v South Munster would be a bloodbath game of rabid neighbourly intensity that I don't think even old Welsh club rugby could challenge! It'd be bloodcurdling stuff.

Anyway, back to reality - I think a lot of people over in England would secretly love a collapse of the Pro12 - no not because they'd take delight in the death of a rival but because they'd relish the thought of some tasty Irish players once again taking the ferry over to England to make careers for themselves in English clubs.

The Irish team is in transition it is not at tipping point. Whereas in the provincial sides we have now got a lot of decent players performing at a relatively high level we still have the same issue as we ever had with the international team which is that while nowadays we have 15 - 25 good or very good players of international quality we do not have any great players.

We do not have players of the quality of O'Driscoll, O'Connell, O'Gara or Wood coming through. These are the players who made the difference in terms of leadership and ability over the last ten years...

The team has transitioned from the Grandslam team which was the end of one era. We now have the usual problem with Irish rugby which is finding the next O'Driscoll, Willie John, Lenihen, Gibson, Kiernan etc.

None of the current bunch stick out (however as I have been saying for the last year Peter O'Mahoney will have a long career for Ireland is the next in line and now should be made captain alá Warburton, Carling etc).

The problem for supporters is that they see strong showings by the provinces in various competitions but this is not reflected in the national teams results. So clearly this is the coaches fault - right?

Some probably is the coaches fault but there is certainly other issues at hand here including the players personal performances, the non development of Irish players in certain positions (props), and the playing of certain players out of their preferred positions in the provinces (SOB as no.7, McFadden as 13 or wing, Earls on the wing or full back, luke fitz all over the place). You also have the situation where Darcy is picked as IC for his province with most people calling for someone else to play that position in the Irish setup even though the preferred option (McFadden for example) isnt getting that gig in his province. Or you have the situation where DOC is getting picked over Ryan.

Take for example Wales...they have very few foreign props and all there players play in their preferred positions as the No.1 person in that position.

The other aspect is players not being as good as expected when compared with the HC for example. Sexton does not have a good kicking game or able to control a game fully and this is magnified in international games for example.

So in the past the complaint was Kidney hasnt given players a chance yet he has used way more players in a few years than EOS did in his total time in charge. He should pick X or Y or in the past he had too much Munster bias (no facts to back that up).We dont play attackng rugby yet we scored more tries than any other team in the 6ns. Clearly we kick too much or the Garryowen is our favoured tactic but that isnt backed up by facts or stats either.

The other arguement is that he should pick a new young team and develop them into a world beating side....yet the intl coach doesnt get the players long enough for that and isnt that what the provinces are for. How can an intl coach develop basic skills (like passing, or being able to not drop the ball, or not kick out on the full or tackle) with the time they have with the players. It is patently rediculous to argue that the intl coach should be doing that. If anything they should be sending players away letting them know where they need to improve.....

Anyhow where are we......not as bad as the naysayers on here but we dont have the leaders or sprinkling of world class players. We have lost games we should have won and yet we have also beaten a SH team in the SH for the first time since 89 and also drawn away to France (who are our bogey team away from home). I would like to see bolder selection decisions but not the wholesale changes some people think we should be doing. I think the coach is trying to get the team to play in a certain way but the question is are the players capable of upping their performance levels. So far they havent....I think Kidney should get rid of a certain amount of deadwood now...but he also needs help from the provinces and provincial coaching with this..

Of course I have twitches and disagreements with aspects of that DOD but overall a very good, heartfelt assessment of the situation as you see it.

The one thing I'd question is this line: "We do not have players of the quality of O'Driscoll, O'Connell, O'Gara or Wood coming through. These are the players who made the difference in terms of leadership and ability over the last ten years..."

You could argue that when those guys came through they stood out because there wasn't much happening before them and Irish rugby was crying out for their kind.
Now we are finding it very difficult to say goodbye to them not because there isn't anything to replace them but because we haven't been giving the prospective replacements the shot. In O'Sullivan's day he had a settled team of sorts (golden generation and all that) Kidney doesn't and can therefore do more trialing and erroring on the strength of having very little to lose right now. People would praise him for showing the vision to at least try to unearth the next big thing if he already isn't in the side. The next big thing will prove himself at senior International level, not league level. That's where I think he'll be born. So waiting for him to prove himself in Pro12 is waiting too long in my book. Let's really try to unearth him, or them. International will be that arena in my view.

SecretFly wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
Kidney seems to divide opinion but then so did EOS and Gatland before him ad nauseum. Who would replace him and how sure would you be that Ireland wouldn't be in the same mess after a few months?

We always get annoyed when things stagnate.

Gatland was beginning to stagnate with his most recent side too and was lucky enough or strong minded enough to say enough is enough - clear out some older players and give the new players the tools needed to play the game they want to play. But he too was on dodgy ground with Welsh fans not very long ago - it's important to know that - it keeps being forgotten now that they ride high and confident.

This idea you seem to project that Irish people are perhaps a little rash, a little too ambitious, a little unreal in their expectations for their team, isn't a unique trait to Irish people. All fans get annoyed when their team stagnates. Ireland has been in that phase for quite some time now. In the time you talk about Irish changes of coaches (humourosuly implying we always lose faith when our expectations outreach reality), how many changes of coaches have England gone through in roughly the same period?

O'Sullivan brought an Ireland side to 3rd in World rankings and then watched forlornly as they fell apart due to internal issues that still haven't been fully explained. He couldn't bring them back up, he was too close to the reasons they went down, so he had to go. Right decision, not a quick reflex action due to fickle fan pressure.

Gatland started very positively with Ireland - did a mini Wales on the side by getting rid of the old and introducing the new. But he became obsessed with looking over his shoulder at his backs coach (they didn't get on and EOS probably wanted Gatland's job) Gatland became paranoid and in my opinion closed down our backs unit to hurt EOS. We stagnated back to forward based rubbish and he had to go. Again, the right decision at the time. No coach should make a team suffer to play a leadership game with a rival.

There is no way even a neutral can look at Irish performances over the last few years and not come to the conclusion that coaching seems to be way below the standard required to produce consistent results at the highest level. Ireland doesn't keep making rash judgements on coaches. It chooses who it wants, those coaches perform for a time and then they start to drift off the pace. That's the time people begin to talk of change - in every nation.

Actually I thought it was the other way round mate. I don´t think Ireland have done badly. They are probably with England the most consistent 6N supporters. Where they haven´t done so well as they should have is in the RWC and touring down south. I remember watching the Ireland Wales match with an Irish friend and when you didn´t convert your last try, he said to me, that´ll cost us. It´s just this innate pessimism I find coming through that reflects this coach isn´t good enough. In a way, it belittles your achievements because you always deserve more but in another way I respect that questioning mentality you have because Ireland is capable of and deserves better results in some areas. If you want fans whose expectations are unrealistic and always demanding perfection, look no further than NZ!

No Irish rugby is NOT at tipping point.

It is at biting point.

Ok then on a serious note - no Irish rugby will be just fine. There is bagloads of talent there and the provincial sides are doing very well. Maybe a touch of the broom required in the National side and all will be right as rain.

Rugby is increasingly a younger man's game.