A Welsh northen region is an impractical pipe dream : Another left-field Portnoy post:

There are so many factors that make the logic of a fifth region impracticable:

Geology.

The main centres of population are in the north and the south. That's because populations tend to congregate around coastal lowlands.

Economic:

Transport routes follow Economic requirements.

Socio-economic:

Populations tend to follow the gravitational pull of dominant metropolises: In that sense in the North that would be Liverpool and Manchester - not rugby cities.

In the South the pull would be Swansea/Cardiff/Bristol.

Infrastructure:

I did a quick search on some random longitudinal (N/S), Latitudinal (W/E) and diagonal journey times on Google Maps:

The figures are Distance/Time/Miles per minute:
Longitudinal:
Manchester-Bristol: 165/2:54/0.94
Sheffield-London: 161/2:58/0.90
Llandudno-Cardiff: 184/3:51/0.80
Prestatyn-Cardiff: 177/3.48/0.77


Latitudinal:
Norwich to Shrewsbury: 201/3:51/0.87
Ipswich to Bristol: 207/3:3.48/0.96
Milford Haven to Cardiff: 104/2:03/0.84
Swansea to Cardiff: 42/0:41/0.82
Conwy to Chester: 47/0:59/0.80

Diagonal:
Exeter to Northampton: 197/3:36/0.91
Hull to Barrow-in-Furness: 158/3:14/0.74
Aberystwyth to Cardiff:110/2:18/0.79
Oswestry to Swansea: 124./2:43/0.76

Seems to me that the road system In England are a bit quicker, but there is a need for a North/South Wales Motorway/Trunk Road to aid communications.

Is that within the Assembly's remit?

Im not sure this is "left field". You seem to be saying what the WRU are saying.

Portnoy.....where exactly are you going to build said motorway? There's a massive bunch of mountains in mid Wales blocking the way.

Otherwise come on, we'd have had a road like that years ago!

Tis the same reason why there are no direct rail links between the North and West of Wales linked with the South and East - it is impractical to the extreme to build a rail link there due to the geography of the land.


Still, a region in North Wales can work, they've already been selling out Parc yr Eirias for the U20's game, no reason they can't get decent crowds for a regional game. And sure fans would have to travel, but that's no different to Scarlets fans having to travel long distances either. Can totally be done.

rugbydreamer wrote:Portnoy.....where exactly are you going to build said motorway? There's a massive bunch of mountains in mid Wales blocking the way.

Otherwise come on, we'd have had a road like that years ago!

Tis the same reason why there are no direct rail links between the North and West of Wales linked with the South and East - it is impractical to the extreme to build a rail link there due to the geography of the land.


Still, a region in North Wales can work, they've already been selling out Parc yr Eirias for the U20's game, no reason they can't get decent crowds for a regional game. And sure fans would have to travel, but that's no different to Scarlets fans having to travel long distances either. Can totally be done.

Dreamer. I'm not going to build any motorways in the near future. Nor a railway line.

Wasn't the U20's game free admittance?

This is what you said: "but there is a need for a North/South Wales Motorway/Trunk Road to aid communications.

Is that within the Assembly's remit?"


All I'm asking is, just where exactly do you expect them to build it? If it was possible, it would have been done before now.

With regards to U20's, if it was free, that's news for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was free for children.

There has always been an economic disconnect between north and south Wales due to its topology.

But there are surely corridors which start from the East of Snowdonia to the West of the Beacons?

Mind you mid-Wales is an area I've never been to.

But if a bridge joining Hull and nowhere can be justified, surely a decent Trunk road N/S in Wales can - even if through existing road improvements.

Pornoy - as already stated, if it was possible, it would have been done already

even at that would North Wales be comparable to Connacht? no big areas of high population density, a few clubs etc etc.

Connacht though are growing and crowds are increasing, don't know if you'd get a sell out for a u20 Ireland game there. Even Ravenhill doesn't sell out for the wolfhounds.

The problem would be can the WRU fund 5 regions, doubt it. means teh south only having 3 regions, that would mean a merger between two of Scarlets, Dragons Ospreys or Cardiff.


Likley be Dragons and Cardiff, but would Cardiff blues give up the Cardiff identity they have fought so hard to keep, without going through the courts? Or Llanalli Merge with Ospreys without going to the courts?

WRU don't have the power to do in.

IMO the best solution would be to merge the Cardiff Blues and Dragons, and bring Ponty and other clubs in the new region on board, Create a new identy not attached to any clubs, etc etc. ( I suggest Red Kites, a symbol of Welsh nature)

Left over players from this region would go to RCG1404 and a new region is formed in the north.

If this was done I could see 3 proper regions and Scarlets (superclub/region 606 can decide on that)

rugbydreamer wrote:Pornoy - as already stated, if it was possible, it would have been done already

Dreamer, what I see is a huge N/S divide in Wales - certainly greater than that which exists in England.

Is the Welsh nation only interested in iconic statements (i.e. mostly based in Cardiff) or would and could it thrust more energy into expanding the sense of Nationhood via bold national statements like taking out the kinks in it highways?

Good God. How does Switzerland manage?*

*[ed] Or Liechtenstein or Andorra for that matter

Portnoy wrote:
Good God. How does Switzerland manage?*

*[ed] Or Liechtenstein or Andorra for that matter

I think Switzerland, Liechenstein and Andorra's regional rugby teams are evenly spead thoughout the country.

I.E one that covers the whole country.

Kingshu wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Good God. How does Switzerland manage?*

*[ed] Or Liechtenstein or Andorra for that matter

I think Switzerland, Liechenstein and Andorra's regional rugby teams are evenly spead thoughout the country.

I.E one that covers the whole country.

Misses the entire post point by a zillion miles.

Tell you what Portnoy, why don't you write a letter to the WA and ask why they haven't built a road straight down the middle of Wales, and then you can share the answer with us. Can almost guarantee it'll be the same answer I gave you.

Portnoy rather than look at maps why not try visiting North Wales so you can see for yourself how much interest there is in rugby up here.
The road link may not be the best but traveling from North to South can be done quite easily along various routes.
I'm not even sure what the North/South road link has to do with North Wales getting a region ? the Pro 12 covers a much larger area.

I'm still trying to find the backbone of this thread?

What are you trying to say, that the WRU shouldn't attempt to take rugby to fans who want it or to players that want to play? Tat isn't in the spirit of the game.

Rugby is famous for transcending divides, it is a game that is supposed to build friendships and create memories that we can all bore our grand children with when they arrive and we are craggy and old.

Having joint rugby league and union clubs was a concept no one perceived for a hundred years, but Leeds managed do pull it off. A region in North Wales is far less ambitious.


The only contentious point that should be discussed is that maybe the Rhondda deserve a region more or as well?

rugbydreamer wrote:Tell you what Portnoy, why don't you write a letter to the WA and ask why they haven't built a road straight down the middle of Wales, and then you can share the answer with us. Can almost guarantee it'll be the same answer I gave you.

Why don't the Welsh all write to their local representatives to ask the same question?

Surely if there was any sense of passion about a one-nation status, that would have to come from the Welsh themselves.

Think of the economic benefits that that a mid-Wales corridor could bring by connecting up the north and south effectively.

And in the process the feasibility of a fifth region in the north may just become more practicable.

Why does there need to be a North /South motorway for a North Wales region to become more practical ?

because we all already know the answer Portnoy

A motorway or lack of one, is not what's stopping North Wales having a region, nor will that ever be the reason why it doesn't have one. Not sure why you are focusing on a road as the main issue?? I confess myself confused I'm afraid.

rugbydreamer wrote:Pornoy - as already stated, if it was possible, it would have been done already

Would it now?

If the Welsh government didn't need the 'ok' from parliament then it may have been built. A railroad or other roads aren't impossible. Parliament would never have shown interest in the North given the economic turnover of the South in the past 200 years, probably why it was never done.

Cymroglan wrote:Why does there need to be a North /South motorway for a North Wales region to become more practical ?

To answer that question, I'd have to repeat the OP. And that would be circuitous.

I'd be glad to develop any thoughts that you may have queries about.

But in essence there isn't currently the right mix of resources to justify a speculative Northern Region.

Like where should it be? North coast? Newtown? Aberyrystrth? Wrexham?

Plus the small matter of funding. Even in the 'hot-bed' of the South, the punters are not exactly clamouring to get in the grounds.

Portnoy, exactly who is going to find it difficult to get to North Wales?

Having been deprived of rugby for so long a team up there would be a sellout each week. FYI, there is already a development Region up there. It's likely to be at least 10 years before they are pro status though.

The OP does not actually say anything.

My question is why do you think a motorway is needed for North Wales to have a region.

One of the main reasons why North Wales rugby has never really evolved is because South Wales teams have never wanted to travel there.

Wrexham were promoted up the leagues years ago, but eventually dropped back down due to complaints from southern Teams. Ruthin have also worked their way up the leagues and earned their placing but have been pushed back down due to the several hours travelling involved.

There is no reason why a North Wales team won' work. Wrexham would be a hard place to establish a team bearing in mind they have a football club and rugby league club, but Colwyn Bay is perfect, it is the second largest town in North Wales and centralised, like Bridgend is in South Wales, so it is not too hard for anyone across North Wales to travel there if they really wanted to.

Well said guys. Airport in Manchester, ferry port between there and Ireland right? So who would find it difficult to get there, everybody has got travel. Should get around 10,000 home supporters willing to turn up. I reckon they would beat the averages of the other 4 Regions attendances if they had a team next year.

I completely agree.

If a £4m loan from a council to keep pro rugby in Llanelli is justifiable then a £400m loan from the Welsh Assembly to build a monorail linking north and south Wales is something of a bargain.

Again, where are you getting the £4m figure from?

Stay on topic Dreamer - this is about the monorail - not whether the Scarlets debt is £2.6m, or £5m, or £20m....

Monorail.

The problem with a north south motorway, as alluded to, is that (if you're going from Cardiff to the north) you have to skirt round the Brecon beacons. They couldnt build a motorway over it. By the time you've skirted round it you're in Hereford so you may as well jump on the M5. A new motorway would essentially just be the M5/M6 50 miles further into Wales, so I can't see them funding it.

Just trying to keep things factually accurate, Casartelli


Griff - aye exactly that's what I was trying to say, although I didn't explain it very well!

It's against the law to play rugby on motorways.

This has to be the craziest thread so far on 606v2!

The motorways and monorail debate.

Brilliant. You can tell the sun was out in Wales today.