Liverpool F.C - nothing but a name...

...and this is coming from a Liverpool fan.

Liverpool 1 Wigan Athletic 2.

Lets be honest here whilst this result was somewhat of a surprise it was in no way a shock. Bar the victories over Newcastle and Everton we have been pathetic at home. Uninspiring, insipid and laboured. For you younger posters on these boards Anfield was once something of a fortress. Not any more.

It's over 20 years since we won a league title and bar a couple of second place finishes we have never even really contested. The term 'also-rans' springs to mind. I don't buy into all this poppycock about winning the Carling Cup being the indicator of a successful season. Utter claptrap. Fans of the top, top teams pour scorn over the League Cup and label it Micky Mouse and so they should. Their sides have bigger fish to fry. The Carling Cup final is a day out at Wembley and nothing more...unless you are a mid table PL club or a Championship side.

I have undeniable respect and admiration for Kenny Dalglish as a man and a former player but he's showing he's just not up to the job. I was all for him stepping in for the remainder of last season after Roy Hodgson's sacking last winter but had my reservations over him taking the post permanently. Of course he could turn all of this around and make us the force we once was. Perhaps he deserves the benefit of the doubt?

You could say in Kenny's defence that you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. The squad, quality wise, is a million miles away from even challenging the top four. Money has been made available and it's been by and large wasted. 35 million quid for Andy Carroll. We'd do well to get a third of that back when he's finally offloaded. What did Stuart Downing cost? 20 million? Is it any wonder managers look abroad for top class footballers when they come at a snippet of the price?

So here we are. We could go on to win the F.A cup and suddenly everything looks rosy in the garden again. I'd take numerous early domestic cup exits to see us competing for the title and playing Champions League football season after season. But the fact remains that we are no nearer the cream than we were when Graeme Souness was running us into the ground. I wonder if Julian Dicks would get into the current side?

So am I being the ultimate pessimist or just calling it as it actually is?

Liverpool Football Club. Always a big name and once a great team.

Cheers guys.

Kenny is at fault, his tactics and signings haven't been good enough, I've been defending him all week but enoughs enough. Today was the final straw, we need a world class manager, Liverpool is still a club that attracts good managers.

We should have gone for Dechamps before Hodgson, but now I don't know who would take it. If AVB would take it he'd be worth a punt.

Rafael Benetez and Liverpool 2004–2010

Champions League winners 2004-2005 season
Champions League runners-up 2006-2007 season
Premiership Record
Season..........Position....Tot Pts.....Points from Top
2004-2005...5th...........58.............37
2005-2006...3rd...........82............9
2006-2007...3rd...........68.............21
2007-2008...4th...........76.............11
2008-2009...2nd...........86..............4
2009-2010...7th............63............23

The problem with Benitez was that his first choice team were great but his squad depth was poor. So his season depended on Gerrard's fitness. However during his time there was the "problem" of Gillett and Hicks who bought the club in Feb 2007 by putting the club into debt. Benitez was noted for making too many poor signings (along with some excellent signings). The departure of Benitez's right hand man, Pako Ayestaránn, who left after the 2006/2007 season after some bust up with Benitez was probably also a significant factor.

I just have this feeling that the new owners have tried to throw money at a problem, which was the lack of quality in depth at Liverpool's squad and it clearly hasn't worked.

For teams such as Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and Spurs they have a strongest XI which most people can name. For the current Liverpool side, I'd be scratching my head over who to start.

They have genuine talented players in Suarez, Enrique and Reina but the rest of the side are really hit and miss. If Charlie Adam was given more emphasis he could join the aforementioned list I've just named.

Downing, Gerrard (he's in decline make no mistake), Carroll, Lucas, Johnson and Carragher really do not give the solid spine Liverpool need so much.

... They can keep throwing money at this problem but unfortunately it's an accumulated mess of a squad.

I think in the past the strength in depth was about nurturing "home grown" talent who played for the club with passion.

You've been harsh on Lucas, regarded by most pros as one of the best holding midfielders in the league now.

hampo171 wrote:You've been harsh on Lucas, regarded by most pros as one of the best holding midfielders in the league now.

Have to disagree. Scotty Parker is by far the best in the league. Yaya Toure was brought in as a holding midfielder but is anything but that at Citeh, and is quite superb and far superior to Lucas. I would also say Song at Arsenal has recently been in very good form and offers much more than Lucas does at Liverpool.

Would any of the Liverpool players get in the big 5? Only Reina, Enrique and Suarez would contest a position. The current Steven Gerrard would make the bench.

I wonder how long before the bandwagon fans from around the world who like to follow a winning team desert Liverpool and latch on to the new powers such as City.

lorus59 wrote:I wonder how long before the bandwagon fans from around the world who like to follow a winning team desert Liverpool and latch on to the new powers such as City.

If they like a winning side why would they be supporting Liverpool in the first place?

It would have been passed on from when they were on top during the 70s and 80s. Also the Champions League results a few years ago would have helped to keep the name alive.

Ent wrote:

lorus59 wrote:I wonder how long before the bandwagon fans from around the world who like to follow a winning team desert Liverpool and latch on to the new powers such as City.

If they like a winning side why would they be supporting Liverpool in the first place?

Exactly, they'd have jumped ship two decades ago

newWAYNEorder wrote:

Ent wrote:

lorus59 wrote:I wonder how long before the bandwagon fans from around the world who like to follow a winning team desert Liverpool and latch on to the new powers such as City.

If they like a winning side why would they be supporting Liverpool in the first place?

Exactly, they'd have jumped ship two decades ago

they wouldnt have jumped to city!!

the blame has to lie with the manager, he's been backed massively in the transfer market and mainly bought crap. with enrique being his best buy. suarez good signing but for 20odd million you would expect so and has been a fair bit of trouble to come with the price tag. not only has he bought average prem players like adam, downing and carroll he has massively overspent in doing so. newcastle have shown that there are good players who can be bought without spending huge amounts and i would take tiote, ben arfa, ba, cisse, cabaye over downing, adam, carroll and henderson anyday!!

Henderson and Carroll will not be there at the start of next season.

Waste of money. Biggest waste since Ali Dia for Southampton.

Henderson is a centre mid being playing on the wing was always bound to look awful there as he keeps coming inside and that is the managers fault not his.

Watched him for the U21s a few weeks back and looked a completely different player, played well with some good passes that split the defence. He should be playing instead of Adam for me.

Henderson played out wide for Sunderland most of the time, its not like Liverpool bought him with a proven record of being a centre midfielder so even if that turns out to be his better position (and lets face it he couldnt be any worse than he is right now) it was still a bad buy.
I think its unlikely he would set Liverpool alight by moving inside anyway, he is basically your classic decent engine English midfielder but pretty limited. Not too many Sunderland fans were upset to see him go, not for the money we got anyway.

Anfield was once something of a fortress.

When the 'pass-back' rule didn't exist, you mean.

The money spent on players the last 2 windows can not be justified considering how many holes are still in the Liverpool team.

Diggers wrote:Henderson played out wide for Sunderland most of the time, its not like Liverpool bought him with a proven record of being a centre midfielder so even if that turns out to be his better position (and lets face it he couldnt be any worse than he is right now) it was still a bad buy.
I think its unlikely he would set Liverpool alight by moving inside anyway, he is basically your classic decent engine English midfielder but pretty limited. Not too many Sunderland fans were upset to see him go, not for the money we got anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still trying to fathom onto how Liverpool got their estimation for the value of Henderson. However, the price tag wasn't his fault, he's still very much a rookie at 19/20 years old and there's not many central midfielders who establish themselves at that age (with the exception of the exceptional Cesc Fabregas).

I think he deserves more time to nurture, he's most defiantly not the finishing article and has a lot of quality. I wouldn't be placing him in the "engine midfielder" bracket.

.... As for Andy Carroll, he was an established Premier League striker whose been absolutely woeful for Liverpool. He's not even worth £7m at the moment in time, let alone £35m. I really do hope he discovers some form as he did look the part at Newcastle but that's now looking like a freak season.

Andy Carroll is 8 months older than Jordan Henderson. They've both have around 100 appearances in the PL. Either both are rookies or neither are.

ATG, you get a get a few wide guys who you would think would make better central players , usually as they have little true pace like Henderson to be truly excellent out wide. Milner is an obvious example and a far better player than Henderson IMO but he hasn't really excelled through the middle as yet.
I think you are right and Henderson will end up there but I also don't think he will be that brilliant when he does, I hope I'm wrong as by all accounts he is a really nice lad and works very hard.

I think Henderson's biggest problem is his lack of self-belief. If he could overcome that he has the tools to become a very good central midfielder. Early days yet though.

Some interesting Liverpool stats/facts:

'King' Kenny's recent record is worse the Hodgson's was when he was sacked.

Krul, Coloccini, Santon, Taylor, Marveaux, Tiote, Cabaye, Ben Arfa, Ba, Cisse = £34.5 million. Carroll = £35 million.

If Liverpool finish sixth, it will equal or better the best ever Premier League finishing position for Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam, José Enrique, Andy Carroll and Jordan Henderson – a sizeable chunk of the Liverpool squad. And that's a BIG IF.

It is true the League form is poor but do you Liverpool fans not think it is due to winning the League cup and being on the way to possibly the FA cup as well? The players know that the league can't be won, they probably will not get 4th spot either, so why would they put any real effort into the league?

Many teams lower their level of performance once they have won something, look at Birmingham last season.

Fair point dondelero,
but when you've spent as much as Liverpool in the last year, to not even be challanging for a top 4 place is terrible. And when you think that the top 4 have hardly set the world alight (spurs excluded) then it makes it even worse.
Also, when you think the top 5 will spend in the summer, it makes you wonder who Liverpool could sign, and how much over the odds they will be paying. In my opinion they're still 6 players short of challanging for a top 4 place let alone the title, but the top players will not be attracted as much to Liverpool other than as the title of this thread says by there name/history, and is that enough.
Though i do slightly agree dondelero, tropheys count, and i get the feeling this season Kenny set out just to win a trophey, any trophey, and try and move the club on from there.

Just going to jump into the Lucas debate, before his injury, he was by far statistically speaking the best defensive midfielder across all the top European leagues, making loads more tackles and interceptions per game.

Crimey wrote:Just going to jump into the Lucas debate, before his injury, he was by far statistically speaking the best defensive midfielder across all the top European leagues, making loads more tackles and interceptions per game.

Except I doubt he'd get into the top 6 sides in the EPL (as a DM) let alone across Europe.

Have always thought he's a classic Liverpool player of recent years - decidedly average. Does nothing special, is ok at bits and bobs but will never win you a game or change one materially. The team always seems to be an XI of average '6/10' type players, punctuated with Gerrard and Torres a few years ago who basically carried the club on their own, and to lesser extent (but particularly since Torres left) Kuyt.

Jesus Christ

I'd have Lucas at Old Trafford, quality DM until his injury.

Hero wrote:I'd have Lucas at Old Trafford, quality DM until his injury.

Not a strict DM but Carrick's been excellent this season, best season he's had in years, not sure I'd swap him out for Lucas, don't think it'd add anything or bring anything that'd make a change.

I wouldnt have lucas at old trafford, you can throw stats around all you like but winningthe most tackles just shows that liverpool have been poor and not kept the ball, is ruddy the best keeper because hes made the most saves?

Dont get me wrong he was playing well before he got injured one of liverpools better players, but he was needed to the job he does, which is simply win tackles gives nothing coming forward. If united were going for a player like that id prefer tiote. Gets around the pitch alot more

Let's not underestimate the importance of winning the ball back here. The best teams in the world don't, Barcelona are the best at it in fact and place high importance in winning it as high up the pitch as possible.

Also, just because Lucas doesn't grab the headlines or score you many fantasy points (neither does Xavi Hernandez) does not mean he's 'average'. he's far from it. He's a full Brazilian international and depending on injuries will make close to 100 appearances for them. He's one of Liverpool's most important players, and we've missed his terribly since November as results will testify. Neither does he only regain possession, he sets up attacks, he's the starting point, the fulcrum, the brain of the team. When he's in the team, everything will go through him and he always makes himself available which is an unbelievable underrated and under-noticed attribute.

I'm making him out to be the all singing, all dancing footballer. That's not my intention, cos he's not and he's got plenty of room for improvement like all of us in our jobs I'm sure. But, at this minute he is vital to us. We took a risk in the summer not buying a back-up. The risk was costly.

As for 'Liverpool not keeping the ball as an excuse for Lucas' tackling stats being so high what team does for 90 minutes? The only time any team had more possession than us this season with Lucas on the field was Spurs, when we had 9 men. Our issues don't lie with keeping possesion and his stats on tackles are made even better knowing that fact. There are plenty elsewhere though.

May be doing a job for you (I agree with C&R re stats/possession tho) but he still wouldn't get in to a lot of the top side in the EPL.

Doesn't have enough quality for United, Spurs would prefer Parker, don't see him getting a sniff at Citeh, Chelski wouldn't find room for him, Arsenal would probably say Song is better on the ball and coming forward (though I'd say they're about level) and Newcastle would probably say its 50:50 with Tiote.

And as for "full Brazilian international", 1) So was Kleberson, and he was cack; and 2) He's only had 20 caps so proclaiming he'll make 100 is nonesense and baseless.

The most important thing in football is scoring. Everybody ignores it with Liverpool and says they need four or five more players, why? This season has fallen down because Suarez has been wasteful infront of goal. Had we a very clinical striker then this season would have been very different.

I do wonder just who many assists players like Adam, Lucas, Downing would have had we a real goal scorer, I can bet most people would be looking at their seasons very differently if we had. It's the most important thing Liverpool need this summer and if one becomes available then they must splash the cash to get him.

brazil's national team at the minutes rubbish!!

think liverpool fans are forgetting that lucas has only been playing well for a year tops, before this all the liverppol fans were getting on his back. come back to us when he's been peforming well for a few good years and for whole seasons before you start claiming he's one of the best DM in europe!!

i dont rate song that well, loves getting forward but dont think he does enough in defence. he's certainly not a sitter. if were talking purely DM here i would say de jong and van bommel are up there as two of the best

Can't stand those two, MVB in particular, as they're such dirty cheating bar stewards.

Would love to have seen Hargreaves have a full United career, reckon he'd wipe the floor with any DM out there. Can't think of anyone in the modern game I'd rate ahead of Keane or Viera either. The Makele of Chelsea a few years back would also be better than any DM in Britain at the moment.

If you count him as a DM, Yaya Toure is probably the best in Britain right now, closely followed by Parker.

Lucas has been performing well for years if you judge him with any hint of perspective (rare for football fans I know). Brazil's football team is not anywhere near what it used to be that's obvious, but still light years ahead of an atrocious England team, one which Scott Parker could only get in after he hit 30.

I'm not getting into a 'player A is better than player B' arguement as it's entirely subjective and basically redundant arguement. It's something my son at 7 years old does and that's the level the debate is at. Different players play well in different systems, teams, tactics, etc.

Im bored of these Liverpool threads. They are simply no longer good enough. At the moment they are just a name. Thats it.

End of thread.

Boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

d260005p wrote:Im bored of these Liverpool threads. They are simply no longer good enough. At the moment they are just a name. Thats it.

End of thread.

Boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Well thanks for your brilliant input and stating what is already written in the title.

Mensa awaits your induction.

If you are bored with a certain subject matter then why post a reply on a thread concerning that subject in the first place?

liverbnz wrote:Lucas has been performing well for years if you judge him with any hint of perspective (rare for football fans I know). Brazil's football team is not anywhere near what it used to be that's obvious, but still light years ahead of an atrocious England team, one which Scott Parker could only get in after he hit 30.

I'm not getting into a 'player A is better than player B' arguement as it's entirely subjective and basically redundant arguement. It's something my son at 7 years old does and that's the level the debate is at. Different players play well in different systems, teams, tactics, etc.

Unfortunately, I think you may be slightly blinded by your love of Lucas. I'm not saying he's atrocious, but he's Certaintly no Xavi! Claiming he's a Brazilian international, so that he must be great holds no value in today's climate. Maybe if he was a German or Spanish international I would be more interested by your comments.

I do believe you can rank players, especially when they do a similar task for a team- why else would there be a transfer system?

Liverpool have too many average squad players who perform inconsistently, that's their problem. A fit and healthy Lucas would not of transformed their form in the Premier League.

I never compared Xavi to Lucas and I never said being a Brazilian international alone would make Lucas a good player (and I certainly never said it made him great) and I never said it would have 'transformed' Liverpool's season but thanks for confirming what I knew would happen when I was typing that post - that someone would take it completely out of context.

"do believe you can rank players, especially when they do a similar task for a team- why else would there be a transfer system?" Football is a team sport, but it's easier for people to talk about individuals because they don't really know/want to know/can't be bothered learning how certain players they knit together as a team. Would Lionel Messi ever be rated the best footballer in the world if he only played for Argentina? Would Fernando Torres ever be worth £50m if he only played in Chelsea's system? Feel free to rank all you want though. It pointless.

"A fit and healthy Lucas would not of transformed their form in the Premier League." Have you any evidence to support that theroy or do you have some sort of super human mind? Maybe you could join the other guy and work for Mensa. On a serious note have a look at Liverpool's form with and without Lucas.

Heres me thinking that a forum is exactly the right place to give your opinions and debate about players, I suggest your in the wrong place. Might go to another section where I won't get called a seven year old for giving my opinion!

No one called anyone a 7 year old so gather your toys up and put them back in your pram. And I wouldn't exactly call 'player A is average, player B and C are better' debate.

Cool, if ranking players is now completely without merit and utterly pointless I hereby declare Joey Beauchamp as the greatest footballer of the last 20 years.

Some might say he's not as good as Messi or Ronaldo, or Zidane or Figo, but then that'd mean childish ranking and we're all better than that, apparently.

Top Hat, I'd prefer if it if you'd just continue to ignore my posts, it was better that way.

Stop talking out your backside then.

Guys can we lay off the insults.
Thanks

liverbnz wrote:No one called anyone a 7 year old so gather your toys up and put them back in your pram. And I wouldn't exactly call 'player A is average, player B and C are better' debate.

What is it then? It's debating the relative merits of different things (in this case, football players). It's practically the definition of debate.

Sad thing is no-one will buy Carroll off them which is what they really want but won't admit it, different to Suarez who they will pray stays with them but will probably move in the summer.

They could have bought Falcao or Cavani for that kinda money.

Liverbnz,

You're making Lucas out to be the missing jigsaw in Liverpool's puzzle. I can assure you, he is not. Liverpool are 4 or 5 players short of having a competitive team. Agreed, one player does not make a team but if you have genuine world class players who can retain the ball and make the team tick (such as Iniesta, Scholes, Xavi, Modric, Silva and Schneijder) then any side with half decent players have a chance. Lucas is not in that category.

You may respond by claiming you did not state the above, but I'm afraid you pretty much have in your 5 paragraph summary of your future world player of the year in Lucas.

Ranking of players exists for this very reason. Some players are more talented than others. Lucas doesn't even make the top 20 central midfielders in the world.

Lucas, for my money anyway, is distinctly average. Even if he had not missed the large chunk of the season that he has I would very much doubt that we'd be in a better position than we are now. Citing his injury as a reason for our shortcomings is just clutching at straws.

Don't get me wrong his application is top drawer but lets not place aptitude over real class. Lets say he never plays another game for us again it would hardly have any more of a detrimental effect than Jay Spearing turning out for us every week which would, again in my opinion, be like for like.

I agree with ATG that we are (at least) 4 or 5 players short of competing over the duration of a season. We are now heading into a pre-season of damage limitation in terms of offloading the dead wood and bringing in major improvements without embarrassing ourselves further by blowing another shed load of money.

The Andy Carroll signing was a statement of intent that has badly gone wrong. Downing and Henderson have looked costly mistakes but they may come good, who knows? Charlie Adam began punching above his weight the moment he signed his contract. Only Suarez has looked value but that's only in comparison to the above players transfer fees.

There needs to be major changes in the summer for Liverpool to be considered serious contenders which is really quite sad for a club of that stature and history.

Only time will tell.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

liverbnz wrote:No one called anyone a 7 year old so gather your toys up and put them back in your pram. And I wouldn't exactly call 'player A is average, player B and C are better' debate.

What is it then? It's debating the relative merits of different things (in this case, football players). It's practically the definition of debate.

It's pathetic nothing debate. And the sad thing is, it's the majority of debate of football on this forum, black and white, nothing in the middle, no explanations, no reasoning, nothing except 'Lucas is distinctly average'. Is that what you actually call debate? Really? What about explaining why? What are his flaws? Where could be improve? What if I said to you Lucas' first touch was second to none in the Pl for example? Would you even know whether it was or not, or would you just disagree because you think it sounds absurd? Take a look at the tennis or cricket or rugby boards on this forum to see debate. People actually having reasoned opinions.
H
What exactly makes Scott Parker better than Lucas then? Care to explain or is it just because Lucas is average. is it because papers now say so - until England flop yet again at the Euros that is and he'll be ridiculed for not having 'Spanish technique' that is. Or is your opinion (that he wouldn't get into any of the top 6) suppose to back up your opinion?

I made a few collective points arguing why I thought Lucas was not average yet you (and others) decided to cherry-pick it. Why? The points were collective, as in one point on it's own doesn't make much of arguement but together give it a bit of weight. I know full well being a Brazilian international doesn't make you a good player on it's own, so let's not make out I said it did.