Why not have some Welsh bias for the Lions tour??

First topic message reminder :

I think it's about time we had some fairness in the British (AND IRISH) Lions after recent calamities.

Wales were clearly the best (by a country mile) in 2005 and Clive Woodward screwed us over big time. He took a party of 934 and screwed over anyone Welsh. He also left the 2 biggest stars in world rugby at the time (Henson and Williams) out of the starting 22 for the first test against NZ.

Woodward and that tour were a complete joke a disgrace to rugby.

If the Lions were picked today it would basically be:

The Wales team
Sexton or Farrell
One or two massive Scottish forwards (faletau on bench)
Tommy Bowe to start with Cuthbert on the bench

Obviously the Lions is in 2013 so I'm sure a few Welsh players will be out of form in a years time and a few more English Irish and Scottish players can stamp a claim for the tour.

If Wales win the Six Nations again in 2013 the don't be surprised to see a tour party dominated by Welsh as they will clearly deserve it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lord

Don't get me started on Tuilagi, most importantly you will set a few posters off here for not claiming he is a rugby god!

If he was plying his trade in Wales for the last five years he would now be playing international rugby for Samoa. We have at least three better players in his position. Maybe more.

Your preaching to the quoir mate, well to some extent.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I cannot see why people are picking Tuilagi in front of players like Roberts, BOD, John Davies, Keith Earls, I know the English posters on here like to wax lyrical about him, but I have not seen any evidence that he is better than the player's mentioned above. He is just a crash ball merchant who cannot for the life of himself pass to anyone on his shoulder. If you want to pick a crash ball merchant then surely Jamie Roberts is your man, at least he can score a try or two. Tuilagi is good at what he does, and that is hit people at pace, I have yet to see him run into space and create opportunities for his team mates. Also I do not think he has the pace of other centers who could be in contention, he would be a good bench option though.

Well, Tuilagi has scored a few has he not, i havent looked at the stats, but how many tries did Tuilagi score this time out compared to Roberts, John Davies or Keith Earls?

I dont know, what I do know is, that during this six nations I remember Jamie Roberts scoring one agains Italy and setting one up against Scotland and all I can remember of Tuilagi is butchering one against us when he should have past but instead got tackled by Warburton, other than that I do not remember Tuilagi having a stormer of a six nations, at least Barritt was praised for his defence.

Welsh bias for a change?

You mean when Graham Henry chose 12 players from Wales in 2001 (the 2nd largest group) even though in that 6N they came bottom of the home nations?

As much as anything that destroyed the 01 tour.. regardless of how close they got to victory.... through the sheer talent of the players who tested.

The 01 tour probably comprised the most talented lions tour in 40 years and Henry blew it.

Or when players like Andy Powell got on the 09 tour for being a good bloke and the eventual world player of the year 09 nominee Tom Croft only got on the tour due to Quinlans ban??? None of the Scotland backrow getting a look in regardless of a few of them (John Barclay for instance) being bang on form at the time.

Just like with players like Earls & Fitzgerald getting the nod over Armitage... those were both awful choices both at the time and in hindsight.

In 05 the only Welsh players who should have started the 1st test that didn't was Shane & Martyn Williams. I'm not convinced that Henson was playing well enough to warrant selection so otherwise bar those 2, I don't think Welsh fans could have any complaints on selection.

anyhow...

In the end there is a lot of rugby to be played between now and next summer. I think it will be a big ask for this Welsh side to conitinue their form into next year as teams don't generally win back to back 6N, its a very tough challenge.

Lets say ENG or IRE become 6N champs in 13.. very plausible given both took WAL all the way in their respected matches and otherwise would have gone into the final weekend unbeaten... will you say that they should make up the majority of the players given they were the champions????

I myself think the team will be made up of near equal numbers of Welsh & English players... maybe 10-12 a piece, 1 or 2 from Scotland (my own country) and the rest from Ireland. Then again if Ireland come back strong they may take a few more numbers with them and cause a 3 way tie between WAL, ENG & IRE.

Although I don't think Wales will dominate the lions tour, the thought of 10/12 English tourists is laughable at present!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Although I don't think Wales will dominate the lions tour, the thought of 10/12 English tourists is laughable at present!

Well it made me smile.

Good points made there FA0019

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:Well I don't really care what you guys think.

Wales were treated unfairly in 2005 and Karma works funny ways. It's just nice to see that Wales are the best in Europe anyway at the moment so if the team is dominated by Welsh you won't be able to moan and it won't be a surprise.

Gatland more than made up for it in 2009 by bringing as many Welsh players (who were 4th in the 6Ns), as Irish players who had just won a grand slam.

edit:he even sent for an injured Ryan Jones.

thebluesmancometh

laughable because they are the highest ranked team in the NH, that they came 2nd in the 6N.. and only by a fortuitous but well taken try in the dying mins by Wales.

Is this the Gareth Cooper 05 argument.. even the replacement of x is better than all the other nations players?

Wales isn't that far ahead in form terms then ENG & IRE... minor tweaks and personnel changes can easily change the odds and come the end of the European summer I expect expectations to drop a little... the Aus tour is going to be big ask.

[quote]

fa0019 wrote:
Or when players like Andy Powell got on the 09 tour for being a good bloke and the eventual world player of the year 09 nominee Tom Croft only got on the tour due to Quinlans ban??? None of the Scotland backrow getting a look in regardless of a few of them (John Barclay for instance) being bang on form at the time.

Just like with players like Earls & Fitzgerald getting the nod over Armitage... those were both awful choices both at the time and in hindsight.

Armitage is a troublemaker. Anyway, how many try scoring opportunities did Ugo Monye mess up.

As for Croft. He should not have been on that tour. He was too lightweight. How the Lions missed having Ferris and Quinlan (for the dirtrackers). Doubt if they'd be gouging Luke Fitz. The Aus tour might suit Croft though.

You say you were unlucky not to win the championship, I say you were lucky to finish 2nd.

We have differing opinions, but you cannot honestly say you could pick 12 English men who deserve a place over Welsh Irish and Scot counterparts!!!

Infact go on, it's a challenge...

thebluesmancometh wrote:You say you were unlucky not to win the championship, I say you were lucky to finish 2nd.

By the same rationale, Wales were lucky to win all their matches, 3 could have gone either way and no result was comfortable (with maybe the exception v France, where the match looked won with 15 to go).

The only game that could've gone either way was the Ireland game first up, and they finally buckled under too much pressure.

But that argument is for another thread, I want to see 12 English names who will tour!

thebluesmancometh

Firstly... not English, I'm a expat Scot in SA.

Anyhow at the moment I'd take Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Parling, Croft, Morgan, Youngs, Farrell, Tuilagi, Ashton & Foden.

Forwards

Corbisiero & Cole with Jones & Jenkins at prop.
Hartley may not test but he is better than Ford and you need 3 hookers.
Parling is good lineout jumper and I'd take Evans, O'Connell & Gray also... AWJ is completely over-rated.
Morgan is the form 8man in the NH and looks a class player and I'd take Croft as he looks like he is hitting his 09 form again and very useful in the lineout. With Warburton & Ferris & Lydiate. Very difficult at moment given you also have SOB & Faletau but I reckon the 5 may pip them to it.... although often tours have taken 6 or 7 back row players.

Backs

Youngs with Phillips (I expect him to return to form and no one else a class SH)
Farrell although will not test (with Priestland & Sexton)
Tuilagi at centre (BOD, Davies & Roberts
Ashton & Foden at 3/4.. with Kearney, North & Halfpenny... Ashton is out of form but is a class player and I expect him to hit form in the next 12 months.

thebluesmancometh

Now I have given you my 10-12 odd... and given IRE can hardly at the moment justify more than 8, 10-12 is laughable for ENG and I expect Scotland not to take more than 2 that would mean Wales should take near 20 in your opinion. Name your 20.

Just for you information in 01 when ENG were near the best side in the world and were miles apart of their 6N counterparts they only took 18... so for Wales to justify a similar number when they're not that much better than IRE or ENG is laughable.

Equo Troiano wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:You say you were unlucky not to win the championship, I say you were lucky to finish 2nd.

By the same rationale, Wales were lucky to win all their matches, 3 could have gone either way and no result was comfortable (with maybe the exception v France, where the match looked won with 15 to go).

.....and the Italy and Scotland games.


Ireland and England games away, Wales have only won once in 24 years at HQ, the English 6nations record there is EXCELLANT. Why do people overlook that when they talk about the victory there as if Wales should have just rocked up and put 40 on them?

What would have happened if England didnt have Scotland and Italy first up? Its the same argument as "results could have gone another way". "If, buts, maybes, could, should" are all irrelevant as theres always a counter "if, but, maybe, could or should."

As far as Tuilagi goes, he has a lot of potential, but currently I'd have him behind both the welsh centres, that doesnt mean he isnt a good centre though.

FA: agree with all the English players you mention but I'd look for Youngs and Ashton to really go and prove themselves before the tour, neither have been very good lately but do have the class when on form. Corbs/Healey will be a real battle for the bench I think, Cant see either of them turfing Jenkins out of the test squad barring injury. Cole/Jones will be a closer battle but I would expect Gatland to stick with the hairbear anchor. One things for sure, this Lions squad should be very, very strong full of youthful exuberence!

thebluesmancometh wrote:The only game that could've gone either way was the Ireland game first up

Nonsense. England were beaten by a 3rd official's ruling in injury time at the end and Ireland lost on a knife edge. Okay that's two minimum.

Comfort wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:You say you were unlucky not to win the championship, I say you were lucky to finish 2nd.

By the same rationale, Wales were lucky to win all their matches, 3 could have gone either way and no result was comfortable (with maybe the exception v France, where the match looked won with 15 to go).

.....and the Italy and Scotland games.


Why do people overlook that when they talk about the victory there as if Wales should have just rocked up and put 40 on them?

Well, listening to certain Welsh posters on here before the match, i'm suprised that they didn't either.

If he was plying his trade in Wales for the last five years he would now be playing international rugby for Samoa. We have at least three better players in his position.

Which is why you play two ICs in your midfield as opposed to a natural 13? If he was Welsh qualified he'd have the same over hyped reputation as North and Faletau. Everyone who watches the AP knows he is an extremely talented young OC with the potential to be a top class international but at 20 has deficiencies in his game that he needs to work on.

all I can remember of Tuilagi is butchering one against us when he should have past but instead got tackled by Warburton, other than that I do not remember Tuilagi having a stormer of a six nations,

No option of a pass, Warburton was allowed to drift to easily by the deep lying offence and there was little room for Foden to take on Halfpenny 5m out with Warburton in hot pursuit. Had Warburton gone a foot higher it would have been try time. It was Warburton's excellence rather than a mistake which stopped that opportunity.

Despite carrying the England backline in attack Manu had a pretty quiet 6N, I think the hamstring injury has effected his confidence as a bit as we've not seen him cutting the lines as much since his injury against Worcester (bursting through a gap in the line).

Should the doubting posters want visual aids see his try against Sarries from half way or his assist for Amorosino against SA.

at the moment I'd take Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Parling, Croft, Morgan, Youngs, Farrell, Tuilagi, Ashton & Foden.

Thats only 11 and that is a poor list by anyones standards!

Corbisiero is full of potential but it is too early for him. After seeing what Jones did to him in the scrum he needs another 2/3 years. I know Aus arent strong there but Healy and Jenkins better options at present.

Hartley as I stated previously is behind a long list of hookers including...

Rees
Best
Ford
Bennet
and possibly Owens.
He is a liability in the scrum and is ineffective ball in hand!

Cole - I agree I would take!

Parling is a tight call, but with the dynamism of Gray, Davies and Evans, the lineout options of POC, Charteris, and the grunt of Ryan and Hamilton he is behind all of these in my book, although not by much at all in some cases!

Croft I have an issue with, he has put in 3 good runs out wide in the final 2 games of the tourny, and both were against packs that virtually gave up the ghost. Warbs and Rennie are guarenteed tourists, and with both of them there is no place for a Croft at 6, Lydiate and Ferris would do a far better job. Individually he should prob travel but he just won't fit in IMO.

Morgan, again a tight call but he wasn't an excellent 8 this tourny, he made a few basic errors and in large when faced with a battle was nowhere to be seen. it sounds harsh but he can't be considered until at least after SA give him a beating, see how he does. Plus there are too many 8's on fire, Falatau and Denton were immense and SOB has beaten the Ausies himself recently!

Youngs has been poor, and although I agree he has potential I am still yet to see anything from him on a regular basis. Blair just has more about him and Phillips is Phillips, absolute garbage... but very effective.

Farrell had a great tourny kicking at goal but did little else, 1/2p is a shoe in to go, as is Sexton, a better option here would have been Flood.

Tuilagi may just travel, not to do with skillset or usefullness but because he's a weapon, and if nothing else diverts attention away from the real ball players. But in a straight up choice between him, JD2 and Earls? JD2 is better and Earls is more flexible.

I'm not even going to rewards Ashtons name with a response, when he actually scores a try in 2012 come back to me!

Foden would be one of my picks to travel, but I just can't see him getting near a test team that includes Kearneys abilities!

In summary I would take Cole Foden and Flood as definates, with possibles in Croft and Tuilagi because of who we are playing.

3 maybe 5, but 11? no chance!

Equo, perhaps responding to the full relevant part of the post would be better than paraphrasing and avoiding the rest?

Just saying.....

Nonsense. England were beaten by a 3rd official's ruling in injury time at the end and Ireland lost on a knife edge.

Exactly the same as the Scotland position, except Scotland were going for the win, If Enfland had scored, and if the convertion from the touchline went over you may have snuk a draw.

Come on you have to see all sides of the argument. Wales with 5 mins to go were never going to lose V England, I wish Wales had that level of comfort in all their games!

thebluesmancometh

3 - hilarious.

so where is the 20.

And Earls.... that guy is useless. I'd take Amsbro over Earls... I rate Olivier & Jamie Noon over Earls

Comfort wrote:Equo, perhaps responding to the full relevant part of the post would be better than paraphrasing and avoiding the rest?

Just saying.....

Or perhaps not, since it isn't really necessary in order to counter these particular arguments.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If he was plying his trade in Wales for the last five years he would now be playing international rugby for Samoa. We have at least three better players in his position.

Which is why you play two ICs in your midfield as opposed to a natural 13? If he was Welsh qualified he'd have the same over hyped reputation as North and Faletau. Everyone who watches the AP knows he is an extremely talented young OC with the potential to be a top class international but at 20 has deficiencies in his game that he needs to work on.

all I can remember of Tuilagi is butchering one against us when he should have past but instead got tackled by Warburton, other than that I do not remember Tuilagi having a stormer of a six nations,

No option of a pass, Warburton was allowed to drift to easily by the deep lying offence and there was little room for Foden to take on Halfpenny 5m out with Warburton in hot pursuit. Had Warburton gone a foot higher it would have been try time. It was Warburton's excellence rather than a mistake which stopped that opportunity.

Despite carrying the England backline in attack Manu had a pretty quiet 6N, I think the hamstring injury has effected his confidence as a bit as we've not seen him cutting the lines as much since his injury against Worcester (bursting through a gap in the line).

Should the doubting posters want visual aids see his try against Sarries from half way or his assist for Amorosino against SA.

Look center is much of a muchness now, you have to ba able tot rotate between ic and oc, and for the record these are the following players from Wales alone that I think are better than Tuilagi:-
Jamie Roberts
Johnathan Davies
Scott Williams
Ashley Beck

If Manu Tuilagi was playing in Wales he would be of the standard of say Adam Warren, who has the potential but is not quite there yet.

Equo Troiano wrote:

Comfort wrote:Equo, perhaps responding to the full relevant part of the post would be better than paraphrasing and avoiding the rest?

Just saying.....

Or perhaps not, since it isn't really necessary in order to counter these particular arguments.

Or you could just keep avoiding it.

Come on you have to see all sides of the argument. Wales with 5 mins to go were never going to lose V England

Actually that was really the only time England looked like scoring. For a good portion of that game Wales were comfortable in defence but those final 15 mins showed the Welsh defence under severe pressure. North illegally slapping the ball into touch from Flood's cross field kick and then the suspense of the Strettle try that wasn't showed Wales defence at its most stretched.

Parling is a tight call, but with the dynamism of Gray, Davies and Evans, the lineout options of POC, Charteris, and the grunt of Ryan and Hamilton he is behind all of these in my book, although not by much at all in some cases!

As a mobile lineout style option I think Parling is only behind POC. Charteris is a bit of a sick note at present and you'd match Parling with a grunt option like Gray or Ryan rather than taking him instead. Davies and Evans are good but neither can compete in the lineout to anywhere close to the same level. Depending on the balance the selectors want in the second row department Parling could very well go if a second lineout specialist is required.

Look center is much of a muchness now

No it isn't. It's similar to flanker, some can play both sides and some can only play on one side. Roberts and Davies are both ICs hence why the Welsh midfield is less effective than the sum of it's parts (both Roberts and Davies are exceptional ICs). Let's not be silly with the Beck and Williams comparisons, Beck is looking a decent 12 from what I've seen but I don't think he'll be an international OC option and Williams has some skills in broken play but off of set play he's just not in the same league as Manu. England have centres of similar calibre to those two in the likes of Twelvetress and Lowe. Good players.

0019

Your starting to sound like HERSH, putting wild accusations into others mouths then trying to ridicule them! At which point did I say Wales would take 20? At which point did I say Scotland would take 2, and Ireland 8? theyre your words!

My choices fo nailed on from Scotland...

Ford
Gray
Rennie
Denton
Blair

With possibilites of Barclay, Hamilton, and Hogg.

Ireland nailed on...

Best
POC
Ferris
SOB
Sexton
Earls
Bowe
Kearney

Possibles Healy, Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, BOD.

Wales nailed on...

Jenkins
Jones
Rees
Charteris/Evans (don't think both)
Warbs
Lydiate
Phillips
Roberts
JD2
North
1/2p

Possibles Davies, Falatau, Ry Jones, Preistland, and Cuthbert.

England nailed on...

Cole
Foden
Flood

Possibles Corbs, Parling, Morgan, Croft, Tuilagi.

Now please don't take this out of context, don't rephrase me, and don't think this is my pick. This is who I think are nailed on and possibles based on combinations, form and Gatlands potential style of play.

20 indeed...

Equo Troiano wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The only game that could've gone either way was the Ireland game first up

Nonsense. England were beaten by a 3rd official's ruling in injury time at the end and Ireland lost on a knife edge. Okay that's two minimum.

Not wanting to be fussy, but that decision would have put England 2pts behind (if it had gone the other way), and then if the conversion was made it would have drawn England the game. Which would have left Wales as 6Ns champions, on points difference.

Sam

North illegally slapping the ball into touch from Flood's cross field kick

Unlike Fodens slap down from Rennies pass?!

showed Wales defence at its most stretched.

Tell that to the Scots who scored twice on us!

grunt option like Gray

Hamilton is the Grunt, Gray is the lineout and dynamic one. Matched with Parling = no engine room come scrumtime!

second lineout specialist is required.

POC Gray CHarteris are all lineout specialists, but these 3 offer more around the park than Parling too!
And I just have to point out that Wales played most of the tourny with a 3/4th choice hooker, Davies took total control of the Welsh lineout V Ireland after we lost 3 in a row!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Look center is much of a muchness now

No it isn't. It's similar to flanker, some can play both sides and some can only play on one side. Roberts and Davies are both ICs hence why the Welsh midfield is less effective than the sum of it's parts (both Roberts and Davies are exceptional ICs). Let's not be silly with the Beck and Williams comparisons, Beck is looking a decent 12 from what I've seen but I don't think he'll be an international OC option and Williams has some skills in broken play but off of set play he's just not in the same league as Manu. England have centres of similar calibre to those two in the likes of Twelvetress and Lowe. Good players.

I'd disagree with that about JD2, hes an exceptional OC aswell as IC. You only have to watch this 6nations to see his defensive understanding at 13, and he's now started to bring through his offensive game there for Wales. Its all about the understanding between 10 12 13 and 11/14, if the combinations are balanced and understand eachothers games, they'll flourish, there isnt a set style. JD2 has been a second pivot for Wales this 6nations and was the standout centre of the 6nations by a country mile including both IC's and OC's. Look at his support lines, his distribution and his decision making, all absolutely beautiful 13 play. The only better 13's at the moment in world rugby are BOD (questionable!!!) Conrad Smith, Fourie and AAC. Although I'd put JD2 up there with all of them.

At about 130kg, I think Gray offers a lot of grunt and bulk to any pack.

So you agree he and Charteris would make a great combo as Charteris is 128kg?

Weight and grunt are 2 different things, I would peg many many lighter forwards to beat Gray in the contact area! Yet thats what Hamilton is there for, so Gray can do the fancier stuff!

thebluesmancometh

ok well for that I apologises as you are the first person bar chunks mother to suggest that Scotland (my team) should take 5+ players.

We are worse then we have been in all the years I remember and I can't recall us taking 5+ players since 93.

We will be lucky to have 2 tour and either to gain a test jersey. Ford is not in the same class as Best, Rees & Hartley. Denton will promising is not as good as Morgan, Faletau or Heaslip.

I admit that the backrow will probably be nothing like we all think because there are so many talented back rows in the home nations and 12 months in rugby is a long time... but players like SOB are living off his previous form and at the moment isn't close to the first 5 backrow jerseys.

The fact that you are taking 5 players from Scotland and 3 from ENG yet ENG is ranked 4th in the world and Scotland 12th (and currently the worst NH T1 side probably in history) seems to suggest you have a rose sized chip on your shoulder.... try and be subjective.

Not English but I don't have a problem saying player x for England is a good player etc.

Anyone else think Ryan Jones may make the Lions test squad ahead of other options as he can cover all of lock, 6 and 8 to test-standard, has a wealth of captains experience and 3 GS medals to his name and his coach is probably running the lions.......

.... not saying its the right call, but I could see it happening.

Comfort wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

Comfort wrote:Equo, perhaps responding to the full relevant part of the post would be better than paraphrasing and avoiding the rest?

Just saying.....

Or perhaps not, since it isn't really necessary in order to counter these particular arguments.

Or you could just keep avoiding it.

Just because he's wired to a Mars Bar, don't drag yourself down to his level by feeling as though you have to defend him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Come on you have to see all sides of the argument. Wales with 5 mins to go were never going to lose V England

Actually that was really the only time England looked like scoring. For a good portion of that game Wales were comfortable in defence but those final 15 mins showed the Welsh defence under severe pressure. North illegally slapping the ball into touch from Flood's cross field kick and then the suspense of the Strettle try that wasn't showed Wales defence at its most stretched.

Parling is a tight call, but with the dynamism of Gray, Davies and Evans, the lineout options of POC, Charteris, and the grunt of Ryan and Hamilton he is behind all of these in my book, although not by much at all in some cases!

As a mobile lineout style option I think Parling is only behind POC. Charteris is a bit of a sick note at present and you'd match Parling with a grunt option like Gray or Ryan rather than taking him instead. Davies and Evans are good but neither can compete in the lineout to anywhere close to the same level. Depending on the balance the selectors want in the second row department Parling could very well go if a second lineout specialist is required.

Look center is much of a muchness now

No it isn't. It's similar to flanker, some can play both sides and some can only play on one side. Roberts and Davies are both ICs hence why the Welsh midfield is less effective than the sum of it's parts (both Roberts and Davies are exceptional ICs). Let's not be silly with the Beck and Williams comparisons, Beck is looking a decent 12 from what I've seen but I don't think he'll be an international OC option and Williams has some skills in broken play but off of set play he's just not in the same league as Manu. England have centres of similar calibre to those two in the likes of Twelvetress and Lowe. Good players.

Look all I am saying is that Tuilagi is a typical Samoan, in the fact he is very physical, very big, and he like's to take contact rather than run into holes or take good lines or even look for the offload. I am not saying he is rubbish, far from the point, but the fact that all the English fans on here like to shoot their load at the mere mention of his name sounds like delusions of grandeur. There are better options for the Lions than him and I am sorry to say he is at the moment at about fifth or sixth place for starting for the Lions, I will give him fourth best at most, at the moment, the centre pairings will be two of Jamie Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Keith Earls, BOD, then perhaps Tuilagi, christ I even think Barritt is twice the player that Tuilagi is and would put him ahead of him for Lions contention. Saying that I think he will go on tour with the Lions and will probably play in the midweek games and he might even pinch a bench spot if he shows up well on tour.

Comfort

He would be a very good back up choice for your reasons above but I think with Ferris, Heaslip, SOB, Croft, Morgan, Warburton, Lydiate and Faletau ahead of him its going to be difficult for Gatland to justify his inclusion.

I hyave no chip 0019, no chip at all. I think Lancaster has done an excellent job, and I hope he gets it as he will build England back into the force we all love to try to beat! If Wales can't win the WC I want the home nations to win it, if they can't I'd prefer a NH team to win it!

The players I mentioned from Scotland are pretty nailed on, Gray is a cert, Denton mor abbrassive than Falatau and Morgan combined, and Heaslip is well out of form! Rennie is the only other 7 who comes close to Warbs, maybe with Tipuric aside so he will travel! Ford maybe not as nailed on, but I think Hartley is only playing int rugby because there is no quality behind him. Rees, Best are test options, but I think Ford will travel. Blair has so much more experience than Youngs, I rate him highly, especially as he can be very quick off the deck where Phillips can't. Finally Hogg might just be a late bolter, Ashton and co are awfull at present, Fodens an out and out FB, so dependant on how 1/2p is taken Hogg might make 3rd choice FB behind Kearney and Foden.

We both know rankings mean nothing, Wales were clear winners this year and are the best team in the NH, England being above them in the rankings highlights the error of the system, a little like the Cardiff Blues rankings in the HC.

I named possibles, and in form all the England possibles may tour, and one or two I havn't mentioned, but on individual form, and possible combinations 3 - 6 would be my call.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The only game that could've gone either way was the Ireland game first up

Nonsense. England were beaten by a 3rd official's ruling in injury time at the end and Ireland lost on a knife edge. Okay that's two minimum.

Not wanting to be fussy, but that decision would have put England 2pts behind (if it had gone the other way), and then if the conversion was made it would have drawn England the game. Which would have left Wales as 6Ns champions, on points difference.

True, but a draw wouldn't have been a win. From a Welsh perspective.

thebluesmancometh wrote:So you agree he and Charteris would make a great combo as Charteris is 128kg?

Weight and grunt are 2 different things, I would peg many many lighter forwards to beat Gray in the contact area! Yet thats what Hamilton is there for, so Gray can do the fancier stuff!

That wasn't the case this 6 nations. Gray is a very hard man to bring down and almost always makes ground. In the contact area he almost always comes on top, he is a very powerful second row. Not sure why you think "many" lighter forwards would beat him in contact.

Also there are some ridiculous posts here regarding Tuilagi..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also there are some ridiculous posts here regarding Tuilagi..

You're right, saying he'd br 4th or 5th choice at centre is ludicrous.

It's not his grunt that gets him over the gameline, it's his dynamism and footspeed. He makes more linebreaks than any other lock Ive seen, barring maybe Bradley Davies. The 'grunt' is provided at the breakdown, at the wrestle area, and in the scrum etc, tell me how did he go in the scrum, and how did he go there? Despite having Hamilton beside him, who is there for one reason and one reason only, to be a horrible nasty peice of ****!!!

Size and weight doesnt automatically = grunt, Rory best, John Smit are abbrassive men, do the dirty work and provide what you would expect. Ritchie gray breaking the line, striding downfeild and throwing a dummy to beat the FB is exceptional, but grunt it is not!

Equo Rory

Ludicrous? really? JD2 was the standout 13 of the tourny, BOD is quite simply BOD, Roberts the best 12 option available, so why would you try 2 boshmen in midfeild, when Roberts paired with JD2 and BOD clearly heralded excellent results? I think Tuilagi may go, but he is a weapon not a starter.

Equo Troiano wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also there are some ridiculous posts here regarding Tuilagi..

You're right, saying he'd br 4th or 5th choice at centre is ludicrous.

My personal favourite was that if he was playing for a welsh region, he would have ended up playing for Samoa.

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's not his grunt that gets him over the gameline, it's his dynamism and footspeed. He makes more linebreaks than any other lock Ive seen, barring maybe Bradley Davies. The 'grunt' is provided at the breakdown, at the wrestle area, and in the scrum etc, tell me how did he go in the scrum, and how did he go there? Despite having Hamilton beside him, who is there for one reason and one reason only, to be a horrible nasty peice of ****!!!

Size and weight doesnt automatically = grunt, Rory best, John Smit are abbrassive men, do the dirty work and provide what you would expect. Ritchie gray breaking the line, striding downfeild and throwing a dummy to beat the FB is exceptional, but grunt it is not!

Richie Gray quite clearly has a lot of power and strength, as well as his dynamism though. In contact like I said he often comes out on top.

I'm in full agreement with taking all of the Welsh squad as long as we beat the Aussies.

But!

The trouble is that the Welsh boys don't always travel well in the SH, but what about the world cup I hear you cry! That was in NZ, a country that loves rugby more than the Welsh and in many ways is a carbon copy of the Welsh goldfish bowl that is talked about.

The Lions will be in Oz and that’s a different kettle of fish altogether mark my words. They’ll be homesick after a couple of days, what’s needed on a Lions tour of Oz is grit and lots of it, that’s where the English players will save the day and tour.

Lions Centres

Realistically, they're going to come from a selection of the following:

England:
Barritt
Joseph
Trinder
Tuilagi

Ireland:
BOD
Darcy
McFadden
O'Malley

Scotland:
Ansboro
De Luca
S. Lamont
Scott

Wales:
Beck
JD2
Roberts
Scott Williams

Alphabetical order & who I would place as the top 4 centres in each country atm...

Personally, if I was going one at a time, I'd choose:

1. JD2
2. Roberts
3. BOD
4. Tuilagi
5. Baritt/S.Lamont

So, its not that ridiculous that Tuilaig's seen as 4th/5th choice, its all a matter of opinion.

Comfort wrote:Lions Centres

Realistically, they're going to come from a selection of the following:

England:
Barritt
Joseph
Trinder
Tuilagi

Ireland:
BOD
Darcy
McFadden
O'Malley

Scotland:
Ansboro
De Luca
S. Lamont
Scott

Wales:
Beck
JD2
Roberts
Scott Williams

Alphabetical order & who I would place as the top 4 centres in each country atm...

Personally, if I was going one at a time, I'd choose:

1. JD2
2. Roberts
3. BOD
4. Tuilagi
5. Baritt/S.Lamont

So, its not that ridiculous that Tuilaig's seen as 4th/5th choice, its all a matter of opinion.

+1