Taking the upset, Murray over Nadal

Rafa I think is still stuggling to find his best tennis in Miami. I feel like Andy is on the cusp of getting over the hump. We have grumblings from Nadal about the knee, which is most disconcerting considering the oncoming clay court season, the most important stretch of the season for Nadal. I believe that Andy and Novak will fight it out in the final. Andy ofcourse has to hit a high percentage of first serves like many players that basically dictates how effective he will be as his second serve is just not a very good shot. Murray will also have to be aggressive from the get go with the forehand. Nadal has owned Andy of late but I think Murray is in better form, Nadal looks out of sorts and if he does have knee problems and isn't able to turn in massive points in the clay court season he might be in trouble in the points race. There seems to be an unease about nadal and his camp nowadays. Not like the turmoil of 09 but there seems to be some angst coming out of that camp right now.

I haven't seen Nadal play, but I wouldn't be unduly pessimistic about him unless he looks out of sorts during Monte Carlo.

this sounds like much the same scenario as 2010 when he was complaining about (right?) knee and clutched at it en route to being beaten by Roddick in Miami. When they arrived in Monte Carlo the Nadal team were very downbeat about the knee and his chances, but one PRP treatment later and he went on to annihilate everyone on clay and to take Wimbledon.

It is extremely difficult to know what is really going on with him health wise from the public airing of gloom that comes from him and his camp.

In fairness I do think Andy beat Rafa the last time they played post the US Open and I do think Andy won comfortably but no doubt Nadal has a big advantage in the head-to-head stakes. As you tap into the big key will be how aggressive Andy returns and plays in general. If he waits to counter-punch against Rafa more often than not Rafa wins but if Andy can be more attacking he definitely has a good chance and first serve is important as well.

It should be very interesting as Rafa is the dominant force in these matches in the past but if Andy could win again it would be his second consecutive win against him and begins to put demons in the mind for the bigger matches that lie ahead between the pair.

So if Nadal really has a knee problem ahead of his tough 3 coming months where he usually grabs 80% of his points, he should be in real trouble come the FO and WImbleodn....But I don't believe that will be the case for some reasons.

History tells me he'll be perfectly fineonce again as he has been fine the last 7 years at that time of the year.

Craig that is precisely the mistake I often feel Andy makes when playing Nadal. He tries to out Nadal, Nadal and that is a losing proposition. When he does put the pedal down he stands a much better chance against him obviously. I can't quite put my finger on it but I feel like somehow there is some uncertainty coming from Nadal and his camp. I don't think that he has exorcised the ghosts of many consecutive defeats to Novak like he claims he did during the AO final.

I wouldn't call it an upset. I mean geez these guys have played at every Slam and nearly every Masters event and had varying results.

I fancy Murray in straight sets.

At the moment though Andy is in a bit of a dilemma I feel. He is definitely in transition between moving from a counter-punching style to more aggressive. He is wrestling with which style to go with as was the case with Tipsarevic. His Game B of counter-punching and keeping the ball in play works on about 95% of players in the game but not against your Nadals, Federers and Djokovic's hence he is now, at last, trying a more aggressive approach. We got a glimpse of it in the AO Semi and it nearly paid off and a glimpse of it in Dubai and again nearly paid off and I am hoping he tries the same approach tonight.

I think it is an upset legend, a mild one for sure but it would be an upset.

Who knows as Tenez has pointed out with Nadal, there have been many times in the past when I have thought Nadal looked out of it or spent and then he turns it up at the working end of tournaments. Still, Nadal's recent comments in the media and the other things going lead me to believe that there is a bit of tensions and stress in the Nadal camp beyond normal.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I fancy Murray in straight sets.

I do hope so legend Hopefully Murray will himself have recovered from his nausea, tummy whatever was bothering him the other night.

Even if Murray does beat Nadal here - I still remain extremely optimisitic about Nadal's chances on clay and at Wimbledon. He must be well rested after the month off and raring to get onto the red stuff.

I do think the match is more important for Andy than Rafael Nadal. Rafa will end the match (however it goes) with the upper hand in the head-to-heads and head to the clay season full of optimism. Andy Murray has had an improved Miami Open compared to recent years but a defeat will still leave him pondering how to break down Rafa (if he plays passively) but a win will be his second successive win against Rafa and really give him a pyschological boost that he is building momentum against Rafa.

At the start of the Tsonga match Nadal was hitting some blistering offensive forehands, I got the impression his talk a couple of months back about flattening out his forehand is starting to come to fruition.

Upset or not, I'm going for this: a MTO will surely be taken either by nadal or Murray or possibly both.

I'm just waiting for this from Nadal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c17aeF7JxAg

The one thing I will say of Murray, he is able to handle any such delays. I remember he composed himself against Nadal in 2009 Rotterdam and 2010 AO where he took MTO's.

I'm hoping for an approach to the Umpire, during Nadals service game, when he takes far too long.

Then I'll believe tennis has rediscovered its bite.

I hope he does BB.

Upset the apple cart and all.

Well I hope he starts a trend and everyone does it.

Agree totally with remarks about not taking Rafa's talk of injuries too seriously. The time to worry about Rafa is when he's NOT mentioning aches and pains. Has he ever had a bad clay court season? I suppose some would say that last year was "bad" in that he didn't wipe the board at every tournament.
Rafa to win tonight, although Murray might get a set.

It'd be nice if someone showed Nadal the complete lack of respect he show to all his opponents.

Not quite sure if Murrays' the man to do it - but I bet the likes of Tomic would lol.

I look forward to this edition of Murray Nadal, mainly as it will be their first match with Lendl as a coach.

Neither have been particularly brilliant in Miami, so all is possible.

Nadal, true to his standard practice, has already said his knee is bad before the match. I wish he'd shut up and get on with it like a man.

I quite agree NITB that he shouldn't keep making a song and dance about it. It is common knowledge that his knee is 'hurting'

Let's hope that Nole learns as well because for 3 months last year he moaned about aches and pains.

Let's hope all the players man up!

This is close to a must-win for Murray. For me Nadal is still the favourite every time they play (most marginal on hard in a best-of-three, strongest on clay in a best-of-five), but Murray has won enough on hard for it not to be a major upset if he prevails today.

In judging the players before the match the sad truth is that it is a waste of time listening to the routine dissembling from Nadal and his camp. I'll only believe Nadal has a problem if we see him wilt at MC or RG, which I don't expect to happen this year.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I quite agree NITB that he shouldn't keep making a song and dance about it. It is common knowledge that his knee is 'hurting'

Let's hope that Nole learns as well because for 3 months last year he moaned about aches and pains.

Let's hope all the players man up!

Nole had a proper serious injury and did not touch the racquet for 6 weeks. Let's not brush stuff under the carpet for the sake of making Nadal look less bad.

Any smart player if they are REALLY carrying a niggle or injury before a match will keep quiet, not parade it. Nadal is the only one that goes on about his aches and pains before a the match. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
No biggens, but you tell me what is the point of it?

noleisthebest wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I quite agree NITB that he shouldn't keep making a song and dance about it. It is common knowledge that his knee is 'hurting'

Let's hope that Nole learns as well because for 3 months last year he moaned about aches and pains.

Let's hope all the players man up!

Nole had a proper serious injury and did not touch the racquet for 6 weeks. Let's not brush stuff under the carpet for the sake of making Nadal look less bad.

Any smart player if they are REALLY carrying a niggle or injury before a match will keep quiet, not parade it. Nadal is the only one that goes on about his aches and pains before a the match. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
No biggens, but you tell me what is the point of it?

He still took to the court in Paris and the WTF. He moaned for a good 3 months NITB so lets not try and make him look all brave and tough.

I didn't recall Nadal complaining last year about aches or pains before a match apart from Wimbledon. Even in the back end of the season when he peforms below his high standards.

Murray moaned through the back end of the FO.

Players hurt.

Get over it.

If Nadal is so concerned about his knees why does he enter the doubles for every tournament (choosing to play both singles and doubles). At Indian Wells he won the Doubles tournament with Lopez, having to play five matches of doubles alongside his single matches, making it ten matches in one week in all.

CaledonianCraig wrote:At the moment though Andy is in a bit of a dilemma I feel. He is definitely in transition between moving from a counter-punching style to more aggressive. He is wrestling with which style to go with as was the case with Tipsarevic. His Game B of counter-punching and keeping the ball in play works on about 95% of players in the game but not against your Nadals, Federers and Djokovic's hence he is now, at last, trying a more aggressive approach. We got a glimpse of it in the AO Semi and it nearly paid off and a glimpse of it in Dubai and again nearly paid off and I am hoping he tries the same approach tonight.

good observation CC.

That's what I meant by his poor shot selection in another post, he often dosen't know whether he's coming or going when he's in the position to end the point, he's either in the "zone" like he is when he gets pumped against Novak or looks lost in the space like a lot of time against Tipsarevic.

The more he has those good attacking stretches in matches, the more it will become second nature/learnt pattern of play to him and he'll be able to apply it naturally in the course of a match, not getting panicky and confused.

He is still work in progress, but it's interesting to see how he's evolving.

His best game is counter-punching as that suits his character, and that's where he's most dangerous as a player.

All this "aggressive" talk is fine, but he is no Federer and should not fall int the trap of trying becoming one. I'm sure Lendl can see him clearly and will guide him properly.

Reckoner. Quite agree that players let Rafa get away with too much. Someone said that Connors would have kicked Rafa's bottles over.
One thing would be for a player who has had a long wait for Rafa to come to the net for the toss-up to go and start fiddling with his rackets by the chair when Rafa finally deigns to join him.
Nore Staat. Yes, just why is he playing doubles ? I could understand him doing it at IW but not Miami as well.

I thought it was about time Murray takes over Nadal. If anything I am very surprised he has failed beating Nadal so far the way Djoko does. Clearly his lack of FH has been the missing weapon in Murray's arsenal....so important to beat Nadal.

I have no clue about who is going to win tonight. I think Murray can do it for sure, but I expect the match to be down again to a few points there and then. However Murray playing his best simply should win but he doesn;t play his best very often does he?

sirfredperry wrote:Reckoner. Quite agree that players let Rafa get away with too much. Someone said that Connors would have kicked Rafa's bottles over.
One thing would be for a player who has had a long wait for Rafa to come to the net for the toss-up to go and start fiddling with his rackets by the chair when Rafa finally deigns to join him.
Nore Staat. Yes, just why is he playing doubles ? I could understand him doing it at IW but not Miami as well.

I think Fed did that either last year or the year before, I can't remember which match it was, but remember thinking, good on him!

I think Murray (body + brain) vs Nadal (body) + UncleToni (brain), Nadal wins but ...

Murray (body) + Lendl (brain) vs Nadal (body) + UncleToni (brain), Murray can win.

noleisthebest wrote:

sirfredperry wrote:Reckoner. Quite agree that players let Rafa get away with too much. Someone said that Connors would have kicked Rafa's bottles over.
One thing would be for a player who has had a long wait for Rafa to come to the net for the toss-up to go and start fiddling with his rackets by the chair when Rafa finally deigns to join him.
Nore Staat. Yes, just why is he playing doubles ? I could understand him doing it at IW but not Miami as well.

I think Fed did that either last year or the year before, I can't remember which match it was, but remember thinking, good on him!

Yeah, wish we saw more of that. I think all that buddy buddy stuff really played to Nadal's favour - but then he's quite a gracious chap is Roger.

Tenez wrote:However Murray playing his best simply should win but he doesn;t play his best very often does he?

and definitly not right now...
I watched the match against Tipsy: Andy wavers and wavers and wavers..

plays a long passive rally: 0-15
plays a weaks second serve 0-30
pushes himself to attack 15-30
decides to slow things down again 15-40
Ace! 30-40
double fault and gets broken
next game he breaks back by some splendid returning..

ect ect.

It's true, but everyone loves an underdog right?

Anyway I am not going out tonight. I want to watch that match....will order a curry and put even more grease on my keyboard.

I'm going to go out drinking and catch the third set when I get back at 1 am...

Tenez wrote:Anyway I am not going out tonight. I want to watch that match....will order a curry and put even more grease on my keyboard.

Round yours tonight then

Tenez wrote:Anyway I am not going out tonight. I want to watch that match....will order a curry and put even more grease on my keyboard.

oh, how did you manage to get out of that one with Mrs Tenez ?

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Tenez wrote:Anyway I am not going out tonight. I want to watch that match....will order a curry and put even more grease on my keyboard.

Round yours tonight then

Your welcome but just be prepared to listen to my unmoderated comments on Nadal's game.

Is this an open invite Tenez?!

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:Anyway I am not going out tonight. I want to watch that match....will order a curry and put even more grease on my keyboard.

oh, how did you manage to get out of that one with Mrs Tenez ?

I convince her to rent a good movie (with a Nadal Murray match, it's got to be "Gone with the Wind" - a long one) and do some popcorns.

reckoner wrote:Is this an open invite Tenez?!

Just bring the wine! Bourgogne for me.

Tenez wrote:

reckoner wrote:Is this an open invite Tenez?!

Just bring the wine! Bourgogne for me.

I have a cheeky bottle of Monbazillac that's go well with some rilletes and a stonking new world Pinot Noir, but sadly no Bourgogne...

reckoner wrote:

Tenez wrote:

reckoner wrote:Is this an open invite Tenez?!

Just bring the wine! Bourgogne for me.

I have a cheeky bottle of Monbazillac that's go well with some rilletes and a stonking new world Pinot Noir, but sadly no Bourgogne...

13 Strangled Cats street, Hackney, London!

Tenez wrote:

reckoner wrote:

Tenez wrote:

reckoner wrote:Is this an open invite Tenez?!

Just bring the wine! Bourgogne for me.

I have a cheeky bottle of Monbazillac that's go well with some rilletes and a stonking new world Pinot Noir, but sadly no Bourgogne...

13 Strangled Cats street, Hackney, London!

Oh erm Hackney.

Oh minions,

what time does The Muzza play The Nadull?



emancipator (GMT please, not Miami)

2000 afaik

BTW, I'm in :

1 Nole Avenue
No1 1LE

Tenez wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Tenez wrote:Anyway I am not going out tonight. I want to watch that match....will order a curry and put even more grease on my keyboard.

Round yours tonight then

Your welcome but just be prepared to listen to my unmoderated comments on Nadal's game.

Those I would like to hear. Are you an animated watcher? Does the air turn "bleu"?

legendkillarV2 wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I quite agree NITB that he shouldn't keep making a song and dance about it. It is common knowledge that his knee is 'hurting'

Let's hope that Nole learns as well because for 3 months last year he moaned about aches and pains.

Let's hope all the players man up!

Nole had a proper serious injury and did not touch the racquet for 6 weeks. Let's not brush stuff under the carpet for the sake of making Nadal look less bad.

Any smart player if they are REALLY carrying a niggle or injury before a match will keep quiet, not parade it. Nadal is the only one that goes on about his aches and pains before a the match. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
No biggens, but you tell me what is the point of it?

He still took to the court in Paris and the WTF. He moaned for a good 3 months NITB so lets not try and make him look all brave and tough.

I didn't recall Nadal complaining last year about aches or pains before a match apart from Wimbledon. Even in the back end of the season when he peforms below his high standards.

Murray moaned through the back end of the FO.

Players hurt.

Get over it.

Lendl on the subject (from today's Independent):

“In golf there is a saying that when people whine about their scores, or make a par by chipping in, ‘there are no pictures on the scorecard’,” said Lendl, who was renowned for his physical toughness. “It’s a win. Whether you have a tummy, or a broken leg or whatever, one guy goes through and it had better be you.”