Other countries will be scared of what England can deliver - Matt Dawson

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss Matt's opinion here.

Better start searching then.

To be fair Hersh told me he is almost there and in honour of their 2003 win he is going to do a remembrance.

maestegmafia wrote:
Don't be so obsequious, learn to be objective.

England have a smattering of youth and experience in their current side and more foreign imports than any other international team. If you have to rely on foreign born and educated players then your youth and club system are not delivering. It is simple to assume that the Premiership teams who are over run with foreign players are having a negative effect on the English game at International level.

Wales and Scotland in the late nineties is a prime example. The only way we could compete was to pick foreigners to bring up the standard. It is the same case in England and for the same reasons, because out there there are plenty of young English lads with talent not getting through the English system.

I'm not getting into 'foreign born' - as far as I'm concern Manu Tuilagi is a product of English rugby. Barritt, Botha (who will probably be replaced by Lawes or Launchbury over the next 18 months) and Hartley didn't learn their rugby here, but they've all improved massively in English rugby (and performed well in the 6 Nations, justifying their places - if young players want to displace them they'll have to do it on merit). Cole, Corbisero, Farrell, Tuilagi and Youngs are all recent academy graduates. In terms of being objective the England side is relatively young, the number of EQed players in the AP has been rising, the age-group sides are performing well, and the conversion rate to professional rugby is good.

I have no idea what went wrong with Wales and Scotland in the late 1990s, but I don't think there have ever been as many young English players on the verge of the senior side and I certainly don't see England being held back by anything.

England were very good in the nineties on a world scale, they were always one of the best teams in the world, players moved seamlessly from youth rugby to senior and to retirement with a constant flow. Teague to Richards to Dallaglio. Or Richard Hill, dewi Morris then Bracken then Dawson. Rob Andrew, Mike Catt, Grayson then JW.. Probyn, Leonard, White, Vickery...! Moore, Cockerill, Thompson.

Then it stops, pretty much starts slowing down as the amount of foreign players in the premiership increases year on year.

It will take a culling of the foreign players at English clubs in all divisions to get English rugby back to being strong enough to be a world force again.

It is such a shame that all the hard work put in from Geoff Cook and Dick Best, the Jack Rowell and to a degree SCW too who reaped the rewards, and it all has fallen away when it should have been allowed to continue.

Too much power to the blokes running the top clubs in the Premiership, too many short term gains and far too little focus on the future.

maestegmafia wrote:England were very good in the nineties on a world scale, they were always one of the best teams in the world, players moved seamlessly from youth rugby to senior and to retirement with a constant flow. Teague to Richards to Dallaglio. Or Richard Hill, dewi Morris then Bracken then Dawson. Rob Andrew, Mike Catt, Grayson then JW.. Probyn, Leonard, White, Vickery...! Moore, Cockerill, Thompson.

Then it stops, pretty much starts slowing down as the amount of foreign players in the premiership increases year on year.

It will take a culling of the foreign players at English clubs in all divisions to get English rugby back to being strong enough to be a world force again.

It is such a shame that all the hard work put in from Geoff Cook and Dick Best, the Jack Rowell and to a degree SCW too who reaped the rewards, and it all has fallen away when it should have been allowed to continue.

Too much power to the blokes running the top clubs in the Premiership, too many short term gains and far too little focus on the future.

no it really wont at all! England will be one of the best again and offcourse we wont cull forign players- I have no idea where people get such odd ideas from!

mystiroakey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:England were very good in the nineties on a world scale, they were always one of the best teams in the world, players moved seamlessly from youth rugby to senior and to retirement with a constant flow. Teague to Richards to Dallaglio. Or Richard Hill, dewi Morris then Bracken then Dawson. Rob Andrew, Mike Catt, Grayson then JW.. Probyn, Leonard, White, Vickery...! Moore, Cockerill, Thompson.

Then it stops, pretty much starts slowing down as the amount of foreign players in the premiership increases year on year.

It will take a culling of the foreign players at English clubs in all divisions to get English rugby back to being strong enough to be a world force again.

It is such a shame that all the hard work put in from Geoff Cook and Dick Best, the Jack Rowell and to a degree SCW too who reaped the rewards, and it all has fallen away when it should have been allowed to continue.

Too much power to the blokes running the top clubs in the Premiership, too many short term gains and far too little focus on the future.

no it really wont at all! England will be one of the best again and offcourse we wont cull forign players- I have no idea where people get such odd ideas from!

If you bury your head deep enough in the sand it will never happen.

I looked at the French Top 14 this weekend, there were over 30 South Africans playing in the league. I didn't check the other nations, but you could argue that there would be more foreign players from other nations.

England might not be that extreme, it is hard to tell becuase the effort required to see how many foreigners are playing in France and England is quite a task.

But consider this.

1. If there is no control from the RFU over the positions these players fill per club, it is very possible indeed that some positions are being filled mainly by foreigners.
2. Clubs seem to have more control than the RFU from my view point.
3. When only six English Clubs qualify for the HC, it means that there are six team not competing with strong players in positions that aren't competing at the top club level Europe offers.
4. How many of the players in the six teams that qualified are non english?
5. Look at Ireland as an example, they have all their best players in Ulster, Munster and Leinster. These teams also compete in the HC, so for Kidney and the selectors it is easy to find their top performiing players.
6. Picking players in England becomes more difficult especially for those players that aren't exposed to the HC.
7. Having 12 clubs buying players means that there is no focus on the collective that should benefit England rugby.

Well said. I think you covered all the bases.

It's like a low quality Mexican wrestling tag team!

Easy solution is to let 10 clubs into the HC, or all 12

Also having just looked back through all the previous HC winners I'm can't seem to find any Welsh clubs/Regions. and judging the standard of Regional rugby I witnessed this weekend I’d say they have there own problems too, Makes you realise just how good Gatts & Co are at the moment but unless the standard improves in the Rabo then Wales’s rise to the dizzy heights of 5th in the IRB rankings will be short lived.

Hersh, did you see my remembrance for you on the RWC 2003?

I did, it brought a tear to my eye.

yeah the nostalgia of the past.

HERSH wrote:It's like a low quality Mexican wrestling tag team!

Easy solution is to let 10 clubs into the HC, or all 12

Also having just looked back through all the previous HC winners I'm can't seem to find any Welsh clubs/Regions. and judging the standard of Regional rugby I witnessed this weekend I’d say they have there own problems too, Makes you realise just how good Gatts & Co are at the moment but unless the standard improves in the Rabo then Wales’s rise to the dizzy heights of 5th in the IRB rankings will be short lived.

Yawn..!

Same old mantra mate and Wales keep winning.

Our regional system works. What is even better is it can get heaps better if the regions get their act together.

Our regional system works.

No HC glory and it looks like the fans are voting with their feet!

Maest please understand that the regional system is not the be all and end all for winning internationally.

Your strength is the fact that its your national game, there is only one other country like you, and you have a massive task ahead to bridge that gap, however there league is running loss after loss after loss, and cannot be sustained the way its going!

HERSH wrote:Our regional system works.

No HC glory and it looks like the fans are voting with their feet!

Yes it works absolutely brilliantly for Wales. We have won three Grandslams since the regions were introduced. We have a great international squad full of young talented players. Wales are rising through the rankings and placing better at the RWC.

That is with the regions under performing in Europe and the Rabbo.

If the regions improve Wales will be even stronger.

Englands system stopped working fifteen years ago with the Influx of so many foreigners reduce the foreigners and the England team will improve massively.

Yawn....

But it doesn't work.

How can it when many people feel they have no team to support?.

Why dont we just make Wales our Region - Problem solved and glory everywhere, Grand Slams, Heineken Cups - On our day we could rule the world

Dare I say it there is only 'One True Region'

These are businesses at the end of the day if the TV money dried up tomorrow then the Regions would fold within a year.

and thats a shame seeing as its your National Sport.

so ruby what do you suggest then , playing as wales in the arriva? lol

Interesting question would Wales win the HC?

IMO no they wouldn't.

I think Wales and England each have 1 team in the last 8 of the HC - We have another GS in the bag and you have a commendable runners up - Everyones happy eh!

personally i love the fact that supporting england cricket is like supporting a club team- the whole central contracts is brilliant from my pov!!

so on that basis I get what your saying ruby, and that would be a perfect situation for rugby.

Remeber that countries like england and france allowiung forign players in doesnt just generate more money and interest- it also aids world rugby!! so its a very good thing.

however i would love a central contract system where by international teams played much more stuff!

England scare me they are two more big south Africans and a kiwi away from being a good team.
All this talk on what lancaster did in a short time! Gatland took wales from world cup flops to grandslamers and all we heard was lucky,devalued etc.. Now lancaster does a solid job but delivers no silverware and now he is the messiah.
Oh england you do make me chuckle,Wales just took the triple crown on your patch,second welsh win in twickers for 20 years and your all happy.

view i think most of us posters have not said it was devalued, you deserved it- now stop biting and accept the truth- we rate you lot deep down,,

viewtothegym wrote:England scare me they are two more big south Africans and a kiwi away from being a good team.

Ouch, that must hurt.

biltongbek wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:England scare me they are two more big south Africans and a kiwi away from being a good team.

Ouch, that must hurt.

What, if we drop Botha and Stevens? Let's be honest, the South Africans in the team don't exactly have the surest places, do they? Except Barritt.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:England scare me they are two more big south Africans and a kiwi away from being a good team.

Ouch, that must hurt.

What, if we drop Botha and Stevens? Let's be honest, the South Africans in the team don't exactly have the surest places, do they? Except Barritt.

you mean the ONE South African?

I always wondered how he ended up there in the first place.

maestegmafia wrote:England were very good in the nineties on a world scale. Then it stops, pretty much starts slowing down as the amount of foreign players in the premiership increases year on year.

It will take a culling of the foreign players at English clubs in all divisions to get English rugby back to being strong enough to be a world force again.

It is such a shame that all the hard work put in from Geoff Cook and Dick Best, the Jack Rowell and to a degree SCW too who reaped the rewards, and it all has fallen away when it should have been allowed to continue.

Too much power to the blokes running the top clubs in the Premiership, too many short term gains and far too little focus on the future.

I really don't think there are two many foreign players in English rugby, on a typical weekend there plenty of EQed players available in all positions.

The 90s was a relatively good period for English rugby, and that means the amateur sides produced some very good players. Unfortunately from the late 1990s onwards England didn't produce the depth and quality of young players necessary to sustain the post 2003 side at the top of the world game. I don't think it was a case of blocked opportunities, the foreign players arrived because there weren't enough good English players available.
Meanwhile other countries were moving on and producing better players as they adapted to professional rugby. The academies were put in place in the early 2000s, and not a minute too soon.

Now we are reaping the benefits. There is wonderful depth in terms of young players coming through (5 different FHs in the 6 Nations games and a 6th one, Hodgson, who was unlucky not to get an opportunity), and the way they are playing in increasing numbers at AP level at a younger and younger age. Yesterday saw Trinder and Daly facing off against each other at 13 (it used to be a problem position), both of whom showed some lovely skills, and Daly has a fight on with Walker for the u20 shirt. I could go position by position, but when even IC (the weakest position in English rugby) has Twelvetrees ready to push Barritt, and Mills and Hill looking impressive at u20 level I have no worries about where English rugby is going. By 2015 there will be more high quality players available to SL than any of his predecessors have had.

The rugby paper a week or so ago said that SL had identified the follwoing players for 2015:

Props

Marler, Mullan, Catt, Vunipola, Lahiff, Cowan-Dickie, PDJ, Thomas, Brookes, Sinckler

Hookers

George, Gray, Youngs, Spurling, Britton

Locks

Lawes, Attwood, Kitchener, Slater, Launchbury, Matthews, Barrow, Twomey

Flankers

Wood, Gibson, Kvesic, Saull, Clark, Haskell, Gaskell, Itoje

8s

Fearns, Gray, Clifford

9s

Care, Simpson, Spencer, Robson

10s

Ford, Clegg, Heathcote, Cipriani, Slade

Centres

JTH, Mills, Daly, Trinder, Lowe, Joseph, Tomkins

Wings

Benjamin, Elliot, Sharples, May,Wade, Short and Yarde

Full Backs

Goode, Homer, Miller, Watson, Ransom and Nowell


Who knows how accurate this is, and obviously there are a few missing names: Lindsay, Haywood, Burns, Sisi, Wallace, Garvey, Chisholm and Twelvetrees spring immediately to mind (and, for the Newcastle fans - Robinson!), and I reckon Homer will move to 10 or 12. Lots and lots of talent though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well personally i think he's become a pure clown since he finished rugby...his performances at times on Question of Sport is embarrassing....

I have never liked Dawson, but his camping it up on QofS is cringworthy. He used to play with Paul Grayson he would more at ease playing with Larry Grayson these days. Complete Tool and always has been

HERSH wrote:

Dare I say it there is only 'One True Region'

These are businesses at the end of the day if the TV money dried up tomorrow then the Regions would fold within a year.

and thats a shame seeing as its your National Sport.

We also feel sorry for England when they fail abjectly at their national sport bespite the delusion that takes place before every tournament. It make me cry. CRY with

Without sky the Premier League would played on Hackney Marshes within 10 years as club after club is wound up

Interesting to compare how the future looked in 2003 with how it looks now:

2003 forward look

The strength in depth in young players has gone through the roof.