Dylan Hartley in frame for England captaincy

Northampton hooker Dylan Hartley in frame for England captaincy
England forwards coach Graham Rowntree has revealed that Dylan Hartley "might well soon" be made captain.

Rowntree made the remarks during testimony that helped limit the Northampton hooker's recent ban for biting Ireland's Stephen Ferris .

Hartley is suspended until 14 May following the incident during England's 30-9 Six Nations victory last month.

Rowntree said Hartley was "very close to having been made captain and might well soon become captain".

His comments are recorded in a written judgement which has been released following the independent disciplinary panel's ruling
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17579531

I hope not. He is scum.

That's not surprising. He was either 3rd or 4th choice captain at the start of the world cup.
Besides, you know he's doing something right when all his coaches speak highly of him and his colleagues respect him.
In my opinion, getting the captaincy will do his game a lot of good.

He used to be a bit scummy. But being given the responsibility of being Captain at Saints settled him - note the good record over the last five years.

I've got my concerns about his throwing and a few questionmarks about what he's doing in the tight, but his behaviour hasn't been such a concern recently. Regarding this particular incident, I think the ban clearly shows what the RFU think of Ferris putting his finger in Hartley's gob in the first place. I share their opinion.

As a Saints supporter, I was pretty surprised when he was named captain. But, I think it has helped him as a leader and, as faraway said, he must be doing something right there.

I know a number of people in the Saints organisation and they all like him. I have seen him with supporters after matches and in some appearances in town. Every time he is respectful, engaging, polite, and terrific with kids. Scum? No.

However, there must be something which gets him buggy, and there is zero tolerance for the gouging he committed five years ago. And that's something I don't get. But in the past few years as Saints captain he has done well. Consider: In only a few years Saints have gone from National One (now Championship) to a Heineken Cup final and a Premeirship Semi. With Hartley at the helm. He must be doing something right.

faraway wrote:getting the captaincy will do his game a lot of good.

What exactly is wrong with Hartley's game?

The worst Hooker and captain of all the home nations. Hartley is so overated that it has now finally gone beyond all reasoning. Why not make Lawes vice captain while you are at it.

Morgannwg wrote:The worst Hooker and captain of all the home nations. Hartley is so overated that it has now finally gone beyond all reasoning. Why not make Lawes vice captain while you are at it.

Hear, hear, Morgannwg knows what he's talking about.

Would be harsh on Robshaw, who has done an exceptional job as captain. I could see the Quins tackle machine leading us to World Cup glory 2015.

Thuggery shouldn't be rewarded. Except in a thug's game, which rugby isn't and should never be.

I can't see how Hartley would make a good skipper anyway. Hasn't led Saints to anything significant and would probably throw too many fits when things aren't going his way.

I think it would be a backwards step when Robshaw has done a fine job. Is there no decent hooker in England that would also like to scrum instead of standing up everytime he gets shoved backwards? I think you better cap the Sarries youngster or call Steve Thompson out of retirement...

Like to see him as the Lions' captain first.

Would be harsh on Robshaw, who has done an exceptional job as captain. I could see the Quins tackle machine leading us to World Cup glory 2015.

Just bumped into Robshaw in my local shop. Suppose I shouldn't be surprised since I'm only a few miles from the Stoop, but somehow you don't expect to bump into England captains when buying milk.

Yeah, he's done an excellent job. Both the stand in coach and the stand in captain seem to have earned their spots! It might be a problem if the back row needs adjusting, but then again, he hasn't done much wrong so far. We'll know more after the SA tour.

Its interesting the thought about England captain, which is the thought which sparked this thread.

Before the 6 Nations, I thought of Robshaw as a nice, servicible flanker who did a huge amount of work (but, critically, not all needed) and whinged a lot. What I saw in the 6 Nations was a very good flanker who does a lot of work (not all needed) who whinged only a little. He played well, but was never the best England player on the pitch in each game.

Was he a good captain? Well, certainly he gets big credit from the Wales match onwards. He captained the side with biggest turnover, by far, in the 6 Nations. And to be only a Scott Williams individual play from being tied with Wales in the match and being tied with Wales on the Six Nations ladder, Robshaw deserves credit for that. But is he really the captain for the next few years? Too hard to say. But he dererves to keep the armband for now.

Hartley is a quality hooker and a great choice for captain. It will be a travesty if he doesn't start the first Lions test in 2013.

The desperation by some to paint Hartley as a pantomime villain is somewhat histrionic.

Apparently he was the worst hooker in the 6N despite making more tackles, more passes and more offloads than any other 2, with only Best beating more defenders. Yes, he's not doing as much of the eye-catching big runs that he used to, but that's because under instructions he's upped his workrate around the breakdown and in defence, which has been more useful for us.

You also have a number of posters always harping on about how he should be penalised for standing up, which just goes to show that they don't really know the rules of the game, it's not illegal to stand up (the scrum just has to be reset), driving the opposition up is what is illegal and it's the player that is being driven up that is most likely to pop up first.

I am very suprised to hear this, i would of thought that as soon as Lancaster took over that Hartley would of made Captain straight away if that was the case.

maestegmafia wrote:

faraway wrote:getting the captaincy will do his game a lot of good.

What exactly is wrong with Hartley's game?

I don't believe there's something wrong with his game, but he does up his game when he's being scrutinized and/or at the center of attention.

majesticimperialman wrote:I am very suprised to hear this, i would of thought that as soon as Lancaster took over that Hartley would of made Captain straight away if that was the case.

I think one of the reasons he didn't choose Hartley is because of the World Cup off-field incidents that the British made a big deal out of. Who wants to start their new job with a backlash from the media for choosing a player that participated in WC. Out of the 3 candidates*, Robshaw was the safest: he's new, didn't participate in WC and is Harlequins captain.

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/January/NewsArticles/300112_Lancaster_on_Robshaw.aspx

*"Lancaster suggested it was a tight call on his captain – with Dylan Hartley and Tom2 Croft mentioned as other candidates – and says he’s delighted with the numerous lieutenants" Robshaw will have on the field."



Also, in the next few months Robshaw's hold on the 7 jersey will be in danger because Wood is back from injury and Haskell will return to England in time for the november tests. If Robshaw can secure his place then he should stay as captain. If he can't then it's not fair to have another Moody.

faraway wrote:I think one of the reasons he didn't choose Hartley is because of the World Cup off-field incidents that the British made a big deal out of. Who wants to start their new job with a backlash from the media for choosing a player that participated in WC. Out of the 3 candidates*, Robshaw was the safest: he's new, didn't participate in WC and is Harlequins captain.....

I think this pretty much sums up why Robshaw was selected. He was playing well for Quins and has a high work rate. Most of the pre-6 Nations chatter was the armband was always between Robshaw and Wood. Wood became injured and that made the decision easy for Lancaster.

doctor_grey wrote:Before the 6 Nations, I thought of Robshaw as a nice, servicible flanker who did a huge amount of work (but, critically, not all needed) and whinged a lot. What I saw in the 6 Nations was a very good flanker who does a lot of work (not all needed) who whinged only a little. He played well, but was never the best England player on the pitch in each game.

Where did you get that from?

Just from the matches I have seen, mate. When I watch Quins, he seems to be on the ref quite frequently. More than many captains, and much more than some. From what I have seen on tv, heard with the referee mic, and from the matches I have seen live, he has always seemed to me to be a bit of a complainer. However, please note I also said he was on the referee much less in the Six Nations and deserves to keep the armband.

I think if he's offerred the post he'll bite their hand off

RubyGuby wrote:I think if he's offerred the post he'll bite their hand off

............. as Ferris's hand (and Hartley's teeth!) said at a hastily convened press conference.

good old england and thier silly choices of total thugs as captain!

Altogether now, "well I aint met a nice South African"

of all the players that were in the frame for the captaincy - Croft, Flood, Robshaw, Wood - Hartley would seem to be the most certain of his place in the starting line up, as much to do with the lack of competition at hooker as his own performances.

I think he's a solid test player, but no more than that. He seems to have done a good job at Northampton and if England want to appoint a captain for the longterm then he would seem to be a logical choice - purely because he is sure of his place.

RugbyFan - I think temperament is a better barometer of a good captain as opposed to being sure of his place because the other hookers are shoite

I agree - but the only other candidates cannot be sure of their places. I'm also not entirely convinced the whole biting incident was as bad as it seems - I KNOW that biting is totally unacceptable, but i can't help thinking there was more to the whole case than was told.

rugbyfan wrote:I agree - but the only other candidates cannot be sure of their places. I'm also not entirely convinced the whole biting incident was as bad as it seems - I KNOW that biting is totally unacceptable, but i can't help thinking there was more to the whole case than was told.

you can read the transcript here.

http://press.rbs6nations.com/tools/documents/DylanHartleyDecision01734770-%5B12372%5D.pdf

and it's being discussed in the other thread.

Morgannwg wrote:The worst Hooker and captain of all the home nations. Hartley is so overated that it has now finally gone beyond all reasoning. Why not make Lawes vice captain while you are at it.

There is only Best currently playing better than Hartley and I suspect those two with possibly Ford would be front runners for the Lions starting spot.

Hartley is despised by the Welsh it seems, probably because he always plays well against them for club & country.

I'd happily take him over any other home nations hooker for England so he's obviously doing something right.

doctor_grey wrote:
Before the 6 Nations, I thought of Robshaw as a nice, servicible flanker who did a huge amount of work (but, critically, not all needed) and whinged a lot. What I saw in the 6 Nations was a very good flanker who does a lot of work (not all needed) who whinged only a little. He played well, but was never the best England player on the pitch in each game.

Where did you get that from?

I've seen it before where the ref refuses to speak to Robshaw after a while because he is bored of him bleating about decisions, even ones given in Quins favour. He seems to have reigned that in since getting the England captaincy, so I presume someone had a word in his ear and now he seems to have adopted the quiet, lead by example Martin Corry style of leadership. Which suits him far better.

There is only Best currently playing better than Hartley and I suspect those two with possibly Ford would be front runners for the Lions starting spot.

Well considering Wales and France divided time between more hookers (Bennett, Rees, Owens, Servat, Szarzewski) due to injury and varying form I'm not surprised Hartley is one of the top two or three of last tournament. Doesn't change the fact that he is a total thug.

Sam

If that's what was meant then fair enough. I interpreted the original comment as claiming that Robshaw whinges to the press about stuff, which I didn't think was fair.

Not sure it's the England captaincy that has improved his talking to the referees though. It's still only his second season as captain and he's improved a lot at Quins.

I don't think Hartley is a thug, yeah he's aggressive but hookers are supposed to be. He's not the sharpest tool in the box but off the field he's supposed to be a nice guy. On the field he does some silly things and is a bit out of form (I make him fourth choice for the Lions behind Best, Ford and Rees). Apart from the gouging incident at the start of his career (which he got a proper ban for and not one of these 12 week cop out jobs) he's mainly stayed out of the citing comissioners way. I've not read the report for the biting ban but it's been said that fingers were in his mouth, in which case he should be free to bite away as far as I'm concerned.

Not sure it's the England captaincy that has improved his talking to the referees though. It's still only his second season as captain and he's improved a lot at Quins.

True it's been an improvement over time but I can still remember the "no more Chris that's enough" comment from a referee earlier in the season after Quins had won a penalty on around half way (can't remeber who against). He seems to have cut that out completely now so I would say the England experience has speeded up his development in that area.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:starting spot.

Hartley is despised by the Welsh it seems, probably because he always plays well against them for club & country.

Does he?????? I don't remember him always playing well against Wales for club and country, might just be mind but I can only think of one single example, which was for club and it wasn't even this season.

Personally I haven't come across anyone despising him (apart from Knowsit), so not sure how you can say the Welsh despise him. I, some more welsh, some Irish and others have commented on how poor he is. He is the worst in his position out of the 6 Nations and extremely overated by England fans (as is Lawes). It would be a travesty if either of them toured.

Morgannwg wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:starting spot.

Hartley is despised by the Welsh it seems, probably because he always plays well against them for club & country.

Does he?????? I don't remember him always playing well against Wales for club and country, might just be mind but I can only think of one single example, which was for club and it wasn't even this season.

Personally I haven't come across anyone despising him (apart from Knowsit), so not sure how you can say the Welsh despise him. I, some more welsh, some Irish and others have commented on how poor he is. He is the worst in his position out of the 6 Nations and extremely overated by England fans (as is Lawes). It would be a travesty if either of them toured.

That's a little harsh Morg. There's really not much between the various hookers in the 6N IMO - any of them on there day can have the better of one of the others.

"any of them on their day can have the better of one of the others."

That sounds like advantage to Wales for me - step forward Ken and Smiler

" He is the worst in his position out of the 6 Nations and extremely overated by England fans (as is Lawes). It would be a travesty if either of them toured."

Which Welsh hooker is better than Hartley?!?! I must be missing something, one of a hookers primary duties is to be able to throw straight......which Welsh hooker does this????

I could give you Best or even at a push Ford but the Welsh hookers are awful. Rees is the only half decent offer and his throw is nothing more than adaquate.

Here we go Pooly list of potential Lions 2's in order of merit

Rees
Best
Owens
Ford
Bennett
Hibbard
Burns
Hartley

Matthew Rees, Ken Owens, Huw Bennet. There, I gave you three Welsh hookers better than Hartley in every single aspect. Bennet is there on world cup form predominatly, did well against Ireland if you remember then got injured against Scotland I think. Only one of them will tour though. Should be Best, Ford and a Welsh one.

Morgannwg wrote:Matthew Rees, Ken Owens, Huw Bennet. There, I gave you three Welsh hookers better than Hartley in every single aspect except throwing, scrummageing, defense and breakdown work, not to mention carrying. Bennet is there on world cup form predominatly, did well against Ireland if you remember then got injured against Scotland I think. Only one of them will tour though. Should be Best, Ford and a Welsh one.

Fixed that for you

Morgannwg wrote:Matthew Rees, Ken Owens, Huw Bennet. There, I gave you three Welsh hookers better than Hartley in every single aspect. Bennet is there on world cup form predominatly, did well against Ireland if you remember then got injured against Scotland I think. Only one of them will tour though. Should be Best, Ford and a Welsh one.

That post is a bit of a joke tbh. There's little point continuing this as you either don't understand a hookers role or you've never seen Hartley play.

Can I just take exception to the thug tag.

Yes, 5 years ago he behaved thuggishly and rightly got a long ban

Since then he has had an exemplary disciplinary record until the Ferris incident. In regard to that, I suggest you read the transcript - Ferris comes out of it looking a lot worse than Hartley.

Please don't bandy about words like scum & thug unless you have the evidence to back them up.

No, Ferris does not come out looking worse, he was bitten by Hartley, that is unacceptable in rugby, how anyone can still try to make out it was Ferris' fault or that it wasnt so bad, I really cant understand. Hartley is a disgrace, a gouger and now a biter.

C'mon Osprey they know ignorance is blind really - I think they're having us on here about the young Saffer - Lads a walking time bomb

You haven't read the transcript then.

It must save so much time never having to consider evidence or fact when reaching a conclusion

God I've never read so much sanctimonious rubbish as being spouted on here. He's a biter and should be condemned to life in hell!! Have any of you actually played the game at any senior level? If someone sticks there fingers in your mouth you bite them or if possible bend them back till they squeal. Maybe he should have just dragged ferris out the ruck and speared him into the ground, after all that's how the welsh like to deal with things they don't like on the pitch.

No, Ferris does not come out looking worse

Even when the Irish doctor points out that some of Ferris's statement to the panel is actually untrue and even more of the evidence is overlooked as incorrect? Read the document, it does not show young Mr Ferris in a good light at all.

I think they're having us on here about the young Saffer

I think you have just confirmed how much you DON'T know about Hartley.