Utility Forwards Choices of the Home Nations

Lets look at who the board rate as the best Utility forwards possible for the Lions next year.

These players vary in position between the back five. Great bench players, a massive use to any modern team.

Pick Three Utility forwards from the Poll below.

I think Dowson will struggle to stay in the England set up let alone be in the lions...

Easy, Jones and O'Brien.

SOB no bother, can play in any of the 3 positions. For his ball carrying ability alone I would throw him in there. Brown can't play 7 and isn't great, Dowson..... why is he there and Jones would be the close second. Jones had a good 6N but you can't ignore O'Brien.

drsambo1928 wrote:SOB no bother, can play in any of the 3 positions. For his ball carrying ability alone I would throw him in there. Brown can't play 7 and isn't great, Dowson..... why is he there and Jones would be the close second. Jones had a good 6N but you can't ignore O'Brien.

Totally agree with all that. O'Brien there for sure and Ryan's ability to play 6,8 and 4 at the top level even if not first choice is pretty unique at the moment in the 6N.

Cadair Idris wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:SOB no bother, can play in any of the 3 positions. For his ball carrying ability alone I would throw him in there. Brown can't play 7 and isn't great, Dowson..... why is he there and Jones would be the close second. Jones had a good 6N but you can't ignore O'Brien.

Totally agree with all that. O'Brien there for sure and Ryan's ability to play 6,8 and 4 at the top level even if not first choice is pretty unique at the moment in the 6N.

Thanks, SOB's ball carrying is just to good to be left at home. I would like to see Jones go but at the expense of Sean O'Brien, no way.

I seriously doubt Dowson will be in the EPS next year, Haskell would be the likely English candidate.

Dowson I think this year was just filling in. There will be another England candidate to force his way into the recongning next year I think. Like Worsley forced his way into the Lions squad.

niwatts wrote:I seriously doubt Dowson will be in the EPS next year, Haskell would be the likely English candidate.

Agreed, swap Dowson out for Haskell in the poll.

Dowson was a temporary measure to fill in for the absent (Haskell) and injured (Crane & Fearns).

drsambo1928 wrote:Dowson I think this year was just filling in. There will be another England candidate to force his way into the recongning next year I think. Like Worsley forced his way into the Lions squad.

Any ideas who?

I am sure there will just as likely be candidates from Wales, Scotland and Ireland too. For example Aaron Shingler, covers both flanks and lock and has been outstanding this season.

If Haskell is still playing in the Super XV next season and is playing well I would say he would be an excellent choice for the Lions touring side. He seems to have been left out of the equation so far by a lot of fans- out of sight, out of mind and all that. The coaching panel no doubt will look towards a player playing regularly against Australian opposition if his form is good.

I think Haskell's turning into a very good, all round player. My only concern is whether his ego is a bit too big for Lancaster's new look team...

Not sure why Haskells name is being bandied around so much, he looks lost in the super 15. His carrying is ineffective and his breakdown work is childlike.

He's getting bullied all over the place. In comparison Delve is captaining his side and playing very well. I know he's not a utility player but is given the option to tour to Australia I am sure he would give it a go.

Delve could be a very usefull option, I hadn't noticed Haskell doing anything worthy in the SXV so far this year.

To be fair blue, concerning the super 15 I am going on what others have said (mainly positives). Regarding my own views on him, they're from his WC and pre-WC form, where he impressed me.

I went with Ryan Jones, he seems to be relishing his role of older statesman who's been there and done it, and hes looking more dynamic than he has for years. SOB's very, very good, but Jones can cover lock (to tests standard) aswell as the backrow. Ryan Jones form this 6 nations wins it for me! He stepped into a number of roles, 6/4/5/8 and performed noticeably well in each.

Comfort wrote:I went with Ryan Jones, he seems to be relishing his role of older statesman who's been there and done it, and hes looking more dynamic than he has for years. SOB's very, very good, but Jones can cover lock (to tests standard) aswell as the backrow. Ryan Jones form this 6 nations wins it for me! He stepped into a number of roles, 6/4/5/8 and performed noticeably well in each.

Ryan also played at seven for the second half vs France and did a great job.

Ryan Jones is a cracking player, and it's great to see him have found some form again. his dynamism is a brilliant asset for any team, and he's a good bench option because you don't lose any of the leadership when he comes on. Possible Lions tourer I think...

My understanding is that the Lions will probably have a 37 man squad, which would allow 2 specialists for each position plus:
1 prop probably able to cover both sides
1 extra 2nd row / back row cover
1 extra versatile back row
1 inside back (10,12 perhaps 15)
1 outside back (13, winger, 15)
plus an additional specialist at both hooker and scrum half.

For the forwards, the obvious choice for the versatile back row is SOB.

The 2nd row / back row on form of this 6Ns would be Ryan Jones, although Croft would also be an option and perhaps Lawes if he comes back to form and fitness

Blue

He wasn't bad under a strict gameplan, but this year he has started super rugby very softly. Thompson makes him look so bad in comparison.

Haskell is realy struggling to cope with the physicality around the park and at the breakdown.

Ah, I wasn't aware of his Super 15 form- thanks Blue. I guess that it's to be expected after playing in Japan, and loss of physicality was almost certain to happen! I'm just hoping that the speed of Super 15 eventually rubs off on him!

cheers maes! i couldnt entirely remember if he played at 7 or if him and lydiate switched between 6/7 as they do sometimes.

so in Ryan Jones favour go the following:
- covered all back 5 positions over the 6nations
- captain of his country
- previous lions experience
- showing very good form
- Gatland is the lions coach

I did mention a few weeks ago i wouldnt be surprised if he toured, its between him Croft/SOB really, SOB only covers the backrow (although very well) and Croft needs to be used in a certain way (according to leicester fans when defending his bad games) although hit form towards the end of the 6nations. Whats the betting 1 of SOB/Croft gets picked solely as a back rower anyway in which case 2 of them may travel....

Ryan seems to be the only versatile player on that list, the rest can only effectively play 2 positions. As good as S'OB is, he should be a 6/8, he's only playing at 7 for Ireland because he's too good to be left out of the team but has to accommodate Heaslip and Ferris.

Don't get me wrong, I want S'OB to go along, but not under the assumption that he's a versitile forward.

Blue

On a positive note he has improved, and got a start the other day, but his first appearance he was really lost and like a rabbit in the headlights so he was always going to improve.

I hope your right though, maybe the time out hurt him and it's taking a while to get back to shape, then the form will follow. He is a class player, but lacks a cutting edge at the minute.

This is interesting - quite a few assumptions being made about what a utility forward should be, for example.

1. Is Ryan Jones the only one that's played lock and back row for his country?

2. Has SOB ever played at 8 internationally?

3. What are we assuming is the most useful?

O'Brien could play all three back row positions quite happily if he learns to understand scrum half guidance when playing at 8.

Jones is a useful lock replacement but not as good as SOB in any of the back row positions.

Brown is the best 'pure' 6 of the lot but has only ever played 6 and 8 internationally.

Or am I over-complicating this and this thread should have been renamed the "Sean O'Brien Must Travel" thread?

George, I guess it depends on your idea of "versatile/utility" and it will of course be a choice in relation to the the number of locks/backrowers selected and their respective merits. Are the coaches going to look for game-changers (a la SOB/Croft) or solidity and leadership (a la Ryan Jones).

So many ifs/buts and maybes, its just putting your ideas forward and explanations of why.

You've raised many good questions though, would Kelly Brown be taken as a 6 over Ferris/Lydiate for example? He certainly has the talent to compete with both all over the park for a starting spot.

I should have included Aaron Shingler. A bit late now but he could well be an excellent addition to the lions squad should his Scarlets and international form continue.

I would put Donacha Ryan, Tom Croft and Courtney Lawes on this list.

Can't see SOB not touring in some capacity. Hes far too good and the Auzzies fear and respect him.

Ryan Jones is a great shout though. He'd be great to have on tour for his leadership and hes in good form.

maestegmafia wrote:

Comfort wrote:I went with Ryan Jones, he seems to be relishing his role of older statesman who's been there and done it, and hes looking more dynamic than he has for years. SOB's very, very good, but Jones can cover lock (to tests standard) aswell as the backrow. Ryan Jones form this 6 nations wins it for me! He stepped into a number of roles, 6/4/5/8 and performed noticeably well in each.

Ryan also played at seven for the second half vs France and did a great job.

Faletau played at 7.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Comfort wrote:I went with Ryan Jones, he seems to be relishing his role of older statesman who's been there and done it, and hes looking more dynamic than he has for years. SOB's very, very good, but Jones can cover lock (to tests standard) aswell as the backrow. Ryan Jones form this 6 nations wins it for me! He stepped into a number of roles, 6/4/5/8 and performed noticeably well in each.

Ryan also played at seven for the second half vs France and did a great job.

Faletau played at 7.

I think Faletau will be in the number eights selection as first or second choice you can add your vote for him there mate.

I was correcting you actually - Faletau played 7 in the second half against France, not Jones.

There's a simple reason Ryan Jones is getting good press on here (from non-Welsh posters) - he was outstanding in all his outings for Wales in the 6Ns, whether starting in the back row, 2nd row or from the bench.

When picking a squad, there is a big advantage to having a few players capable of covering multiple positions, which is a great strength of Jones and of SOB. Not quite such a strength of Mauro Bergomasco though

Rory:

Ryan played 7, just look at the scrums, Faletau kept losing control of the ball at 8.

In attack, the same as McCaw did with Thomson during the RWC. Back of the scrum at 8 in attack, 7 in defence.

glamorganalun wrote:Rory:

Ryan played 7, just look at the scrums, Faletau kept losing control of the ball at 8.

Ryan Jones played seven in the last game against France, I mentioned this earlier. Did a good job too.

Seems to have lost some weight and gained some speed, looks a far more agile player now. More like he looked back in '05.

Ryan Jones would definitely be a useful player to have. He's good at slotting in with minimum fuss too, something that's very important to keep continuity on a tour with new combinations etc.

Maesteg:

R Jones is much lighter than he was in 2005, I suspect his lower weight is to keep his speed up as he is older (and fitter).

I don't see anybody else on the list as a utility player, Croft is an alternative but not SOB, he has been poor at 7, I think Ferris is a better utility option than SOB.

SOB has not been poor at 7.. Ireland have the highest turnover count in the 6 nations, with SOB at 7 who contributed to that, plus he made around the same amount of tackles in the whole tournament as Lydiate. Plus beat a few defenders. Not too shabby, for someone who is poor at 7.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not sure why Haskells name is being bandied around so much, he looks lost in the super 15. His carrying is ineffective and his breakdown work is childlike.

He's getting bullied all over the place.

That doesn't tally with the comments of the Kiwi posters on here.

thebluesmancometh wrote:his first appearance he was really lost and like a rabbit in the headlights

He arrived from Japan 48 hours before that match, he'd barely had time to learn his teammates' names, let alone the team's structures and patterns of play. As lost and ineffective at the breakdown as you suggest he was, he still managed to win the turnover & penalty in his team's 22 that closed out the match and made certain of their 23-19 win.

SOB, it just has to b.

Seeing where Ryan is in the poll,unless people are biased beyond,they cannot have seen any of Wales' games in the 6 Nations.
I enjoy a good laugh but some of these vote for the best player things are a farce.
Surely we can all see qualities/performances from other country's folks??
Suppose Rory would have Ferris in all postions!!Makes me chuckle.

Ferris isn't even in the poll genius. Maybe everyone should just agree with your amazing team though eh? That would be fun.

Sadly there is only one utility forward on the list...

Ryan Jones.

SOB is only really utility because he can't nail a position down, Dowson was ousted from 8 and Kelly Brown wasn't in good form really.

Kelly Brown was injured, so we didn't get to see his form. Plus SOB is quite clearly a utility back rower. Won European player of the year playing at 6, 7 and 8.

SOB is possibly the best loose forward in the NH that can cover all 3 positions well. Nailed on.

Dowson should be nowhere near an English jersey never mind a Lions one. Similar with Jones really, he can't get in the Welsh side at 6/8 so why would he tour with the Lions? Jones & Dowson are just not of the required quality to tour.

Ryan Jones was for me Wales best player of the 6N's. He played immensely well off the bench or starting in I think 4 different positions over the course of the tournament. He'd be the perfect mid week captain as well.

O'Brien is just a wrecking ball when he gets some momentum.


Jones and O'Brien for me.

Yappy:

Nice to hear from someone not having one eye, I still think SOB has been found out against Wales and England i.e., stopped in his tracks and can't cover second row. I prefer Croft or Ferris although not on the list.

glamorganalun wrote:Yappy:

Nice to hear from someone not having one eye, I still think SOB has been found out against Wales and England i.e., stopped in his tracks and can't cover second row. I prefer Croft or Ferris although not on the list.

Please watch the following:

Spoiler:

Here you will find plenty of clips of SOB being "found out" by Wales, England, and many other teams.

No tests against Wales and England this year funnily enough, nor the world cup or world cup warm-ups...

Rory:

Where in the clips did he do well against Wales or England in the last year! Lydiate chopped him down during the RWC (in fairness he almost scored against Wales but 1/2 penny stopped him, very impressive) and he made one break in Ireland this year smashing the Wales 10. The one clip I saw against Wales Phillips stopped him in his tracks. As I said, he has been found out and offers a limited game in my eyes. Ireland back row were tipped to outplay Wales in the RWC and England in the 6N, correct me if I am wrong but it did not happen, SOB is no 7 or 8 and Ferris is a better 6 IMO.