3 of the 4 top teams in Europe are from the Rabo

First topic message reminder :

Discuss.........

PS. Leinster have to play the other 3 top teams in Europe, 3 weeks in a row.

But the thing is i want to support a Welsh team in a domestic competition that actually means something. Europe is important but it should be more of a bonus than the main prize the teams aim for each season. Why should i or any other fan want to spend hard earned cash to watch a Pro 12 game when it's obviously doesn't mean a lot to the teams.

doesnt mean a lot to the teams?...did u not see the joy on the ospreys players faces when they beat leinster

It does mean a lot to Irish fans. They want to win because they love their team.

I know it's not the same in Wales. But the Welsh should do what's best for the Welsh national team. The current setup is producing Grand Slam winning Welsh teams. The Irish and Welsh teams were circling the sink hole before the Pro 12 was setup and they've been raising each others standards since.

But the thing is i want to support a Welsh team in a domestic competition

You can. The Welsh Premiership. Nobody is stopping you from supporting a Welsh club in that.

Ok i meant a Welsh team in a pro comp that means something

ye rogue your right the rabo means a lot to us leinster fans...we consistantly get over 13000 per game at the RDS...

It helps that you guys have teams you can identify with.

gowales wrote:Ok i meant a Welsh team in a pro comp that means something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbBjIlaLcE&feature=related

I'd say that meant something tbh....

Apologies for coming to this thread late but does anyone else think that the Premiership is more like Rugby League in comparisson to the Top 14 or Rabo? Power is the name of the game more and more IMO

ye with some teams but other teams like quins do play attacking rugby

Strange situation at the moment though with the apparent lack of correlation between the HC and the performance of the national side be interesting to see how it all develops -

croyman its because we have deccie as our national coach...if joe schmidt was our national coach we would blow away everyone in the 6n's dont care what anyone says...

gowales, It's understandable that you want the traditional club game and the local rivalries back. But there's an insurmountable financial and player pool barrier to that. The individual Pro 12 nations simply can't produce 12 teams that can compete on the field or financially with the English and French. Professionalism made it impossible.

If you went back to the way things were you'd have exactly what you had before. 12 broke teams that ship 50+ points French and English sides, and all the best Welsh players playing in England and France. English and French dominance of the 6 Nations would return.

The Pro 12 has quickly revived the dying Welsh and Irish national teams. It's done so by concentrating the talent in fewer teams and academies, and competing against the best that other nations have to offer. Ireland had four traditional provinces with proud histories. Wales didn't. That's their problem. You say the league doesn't mean anything. But I think the truth is the regions don't mean anything to some Welsh fans. They just have to build pride and tradition from scratch.

LeinsterFan, I don't agree that we'd blow away every other team. But we'd certainly be better. Deccie's contract should not have been extended. It's been clear since 2010 that he can't get the best from a team since the tackle laws changed the game to benefit attacking play. I think they gave him the cotract on the back of what he achieved in 2009 when the game was very different and you could win a Grand Slam by kicking more and passing less than anyone else.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

PR being Premiership Rugby?? If so why the hell would we give a damn what they want?

Eh yes, which is why I prefaced my question with "leaving aside what PR want....."

When an English team gets beat by a French team it budget, and when beaten by a pro 12 team it's the league meaning they are rested. It's just coaches making excuses.

if it's budget why aren't more French in the,latter stages? Edinburgh show that smaller teams can do well.

No relegation is often used saying matches don't matter, but the same people say the 6 nations is one of the best competitions in,the world. Super 15 and in other sports across the world there are competitions that don't have relegration and they suffer from it.

i really do think we would be the best team in europe if we had joe as our coach but id never want him to leave leinster even if it meant ireland became a better team

But the question remains is how could you make the Pro12 more competitive - leaving aside/ignoring demands from external leagues?

How much does league position within the Pro12 affect teams financially (leaving aside H Cup qualification)? If your team doesn't win the thing, is there a benefit in finishing fourth rather than sixth? Can a team get more money?

Could Pro12 league placings (and would have to be the same in other leagues) be linked to the seedings for the Heineken Cup in some way, for example? This would replace the current seeding system used by ECR Rugby which is somewhat self-perpetuating.

Thus the four countries might maintain their country spots, but would be seeded according to where they finish. The league finalists in each league would be assigned across each pool. 3rd and 4th spot assigned by draw to each one. And so on.

This would bring the recent performance of teams in their league closer to their subsequent performance in the following season's H Cup, instead of relying on past glories from 2-3 years ago to get an unwarranted seeding.

I'm sure there are plenty of holes to pick in that, so I'l stop now........

When the welsh lose they blame the ref, the English the structure of the tournament, the Ireland Declan Kidney.

tecphobe wrote:When the welsh lose they blame the ref, the English the structure of the tournament, the Ireland Declan Kidney.

The Australians like to blame the rain. Or the fact that a thing called the scrum exists. The Kiwi's tend to go the way of the Welsh and blame the ref. The Saffers go the Irish route and blame the coach.

The English are unique and actually quite creative. It's simply not fair that the other team is so good, so the way they structure themselves should be changed to make them worse.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
But the Heineken Cup is owned and run by all 6 unions. The whole point of it is to let the domestic teams of all 6 unions compete against each other. So all 6 unions will always get places. That won't change. It can't.

It's the ERC which is jointly owned, which includes both HC and Amlin, and, at the risk of further pedantry, ERC ownership includes the club organisations of France, England and Wales as well as the Unions.

All 6 unions will always get places in European competition, that's true (while ERC exists in its current format), but will they always get places in HC rather than Amlin - that's debatable. Remember that the Roboleague's sole representative in this year's Amlin finished third in their pool, which is not a glowing testament to the competitivenes of the teams in the lower reaches of that league.

Id like to ask how many of those criticising the pro-12 actually watch it?

when leinster or munster lose when do u ever hear a supporter saying its kidney's fault??? kidney has nothing to do with the provinces...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:when leinster or munster lose when do u ever hear a supporter saying its kidney's fault??? kidney has nothing to do with the provinces...

Sarcasm is obviously lost on you

sort of makes sense though...

The difference between the national sides of ENG, FRA, WAL & IRE are very small.

Therefore if the national side is made up of 10 sides in ENG, 14 in FRA and 4 each in WAL & IRE you would expect the team with a higher concentration of test players to be better in club competition.... i.e. the nation with less domestic sides.

The strange thing is why has welsh rugby continued to under achieve through this system whereas the best players are centralised to a small number of clubs unlike Ireland?

no i no that it was a light hearted comment it just didnt make sense...when we lose we blame on the ref too...

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:
But the Heineken Cup is owned and run by all 6 unions. The whole point of it is to let the domestic teams of all 6 unions compete against each other. So all 6 unions will always get places. That won't change. It can't.

It's the ERC which is jointly owned, which includes both HC and Amlin, and, at the risk of further pedantry, ERC ownership includes the club organisations of France, England and Wales as well as the Unions.

All 6 unions will always get places in European competition, that's true (while ERC exists in its current format), but will they always get places in HC rather than Amlin - that's debatable. Remember that the Roboleague's sole representative in this year's Amlin finished third in their pool, which is not a glowing testament to the competitivenes of the teams in the lower reaches of that league.

incorrect the French and English Clubs own half a share in the tournament Italian Scottish Welsh and Irish unions can easily veto them at every turn

i hear what your saying fa0019 but thats not true...ireland has a population of just over 4m whereas england has a population of over 50m...therefore it wouldnt make sense if we had the same amount of teams as england as there is no way we could be competitive and we wouldnt have the funding for it...the irish teams just play a better brand of rugby

The RFU Management Board has now agreed its position regarding the draft new shareholders agreement for European Rugby Cup Ltd (ERC) covering the period 2007/08 to 2011/12.

The 5 ERC Board votes available to England will continue to be split 2.5 votes to the RFU and 2.5 votes to PRL;

§ England’s allocation of 2 directors on the Board of ERC will continue to be split 1 director for a PRL nominee and 1 director for an RFU nominee;

§ The RFU will continue to pass 100% of England’s share of ERC revenues to PRL without deduction;

§ The RFU will support PRL in seeking additional club representation on the key ERC operating committees;

§ The RFU will continue to cast its votes on the ERC Board in support of all PRL proposals on commercial and financial matters aimed at improving the business success of ERC;

§ The RFU will be seeking PRL’s confirmation that they will continue to cast their votes on the ERC Board in support of all RFU proposals on governance and regulatory matters in respect of ERC and its competitions;

§ The RFU has agreed to the proposed increase in the shareholding of Italy to 16.67% placing it on the same basis as the other countries. The RFU will continue to hold the 16.67% of the share capital attributable to England.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s245/st107210.htm?print=1

tec,

and after all their teams still get pumped

LeinsterFan4life

At the moment IRE's 4MM seems to have a talent pool as high as ENG's 50MM in terms of their top 50 players or so. Its about quality not necessarily quantity i.e. NZ and their 3MM pop.

I think IRE has done better than any nation which adopted the Franchise system. If you put Munster or Leinster in the S15 I reckon they would be very very competitive and would certainly both have won a title over the last 5 years each.

Personally I would say at the moment Leinster are probably the best club side in the world.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:All 6 unions will always get places in European competition, that's true (while ERC exists in its current format), but will they always get places in HC rather than Amlin - that's debatable. Remember that the Roboleague's sole representative in this year's Amlin finished third in their pool, which is not a glowing testament to the competitivenes of the teams in the lower reaches of that league.

The Pro 12's representative in the previous year got through to the semi-final against a lot of odds. But I didn't hear any complaints this year when the Pro12 team didn't make it through to the knockout stages which the French and English teams dominate most years. Though Connacht could argue most years that the AP and Top 14 teams have much bigger budgets, playing squads, can afford to rest players, etc, etc.

How much does league position within the Pro12 affect teams financially (leaving aside H Cup qualification)? If your team doesn't win the thing, is there a benefit in finishing fourth rather than sixth? Can a team get more money?

Yes - the top 4 play off to get the winner IIRC. Its the bottom 4 for whom the end of the season is a abit pointless. the middle teams are fighting to get into the playoffs and this years its very tight

There are also the local derbys throughout the league which helps set up rivalry and competition - the two Edinburgh / Glasgow games were well attended and hard fought

Lot of talk about the representation of all nations in the HC. The Rabo teams don't owe the English or French any favours around how they choose to concentrate their elite players.

However the R12 teams should not be surprised if the A12 or T14 retaliate in kind. The obvious tactic is the salary cap. Personally I think it is bad news but they have been left with little alternative but to increase the quantity and quality of squads to cope with an injury rate that is not seen in the R12. The implications of that are yet to fully play out.

The English and French sides are generally facing fully fit R12 squads packed with current internationals and this season have been missing too many first team players. The results are often a forgone conclusion.

Some folk on here are enjoying the dominance - nothing wrong with that but the longer term implications will be interesting to watch, not least the upcoming HC negotiations.

The Australian cricket model which was copied by the ARU and then SANZAR and then the R12 is a perfectly valid model but centrally controlled elites in all walks of life don't last, compared to a wider distribution of interests and access. In the short term it has created a conflict between local clubs and franchise/regional models. As a season ticket holder I prefer clubs but I would wouldn't I ?

TJ wrote:

How much does league position within the Pro12 affect teams financially (leaving aside H Cup qualification)? If your team doesn't win the thing, is there a benefit in finishing fourth rather than sixth? Can a team get more money?

Yes - the top 4 play off to get the winner IIRC. Its the bottom 4 for whom the end of the season is a abit pointless. the middle teams are fighting to get into the playoffs and this years its very tight

There are also the local derbys throughout the league which helps set up rivalry and competition - the two Edinburgh / Glasgow games were well attended and hard fought

Yes, yes, we know there's a playoff. The question was "How much does league position within the Pro12 affect teams financially (leaving aside H Cup qualification)? If your team doesn't win the thing, is there a benefit in finishing fourth rather than sixth? Can a team get more money?"

Incentives. e.g. Let's say Connacht (9th) are playing Scarlets (8th) in the last match of the season, if they win, they move above Scarlets in the table into 7th, and get more money for their club from allocation of league TV money. Or they are ranked a third tier seed instead of fourth for the following year's H Cup comp.

Its worth finishing 4th to get into the playoffs - you asked was there a benefit in finishing 4th rather than 6th - the answer to that is yes

Recwatcher wrote:Lot of talk about the representation of all nations in the HC. The Rabo teams don't owe the English or French any favours around how they choose to concentrate their elite players.

However the R12 teams should not be surprised if the A12 or T14 retaliate in kind. The obvious tactic is the salary cap. Personally I think it is bad news but they have been left with little alternative but to increase the quantity and quality of squads to cope with an injury rate that is not seen in the R12. The implications of that are yet to fully play out.

The English and French sides are generally facing fully fit R12 squads packed with current internationals and this season have been missing too many first team players. The results are often a forgone conclusion.

Some folk on here are enjoying the dominance - nothing wrong with that but the longer term implications will be interesting to watch, not least the upcoming HC negotiations.

The Australian cricket model which was copied by the ARU and then SANZAR and then the R12 is a perfectly valid model but centrally controlled elites in all walks of life don't last, compared to a wider distribution of interests and access. In the short term it has created a conflict between local clubs and franchise/regional models. As a season ticket holder I prefer clubs but I would wouldn't I ?

Ahh yes that traditional English argument if we don't get what we want were taking out ball away. Point of order Northampton have 55 players in there squad that's more than any Irish province.

I seriously believe that folk should take account of economic realities.From what I read/hear the Irish economy is in a worse state than ours-and we are stuffed!!!!!!!!!
Time for some bubbles to burst???

Recwatcher wrote:Lot of talk about the representation of all nations in the HC. The Rabo teams don't owe the English or French any favours around how they choose to concentrate their elite players.

However the R12 teams should not be surprised if the A12 or T14 retaliate in kind. The obvious tactic is the salary cap. Personally I think it is bad news but they have been left with little alternative but to increase the quantity and quality of squads to cope with an injury rate that is not seen in the R12. The implications of that are yet to fully play out.

The English and French sides are generally facing fully fit R12 squads packed with current internationals and this season have been missing too many first team players. The results are often a forgone conclusion.

Some folk on here are enjoying the dominance - nothing wrong with that but the longer term implications will be interesting to watch, not least the upcoming HC negotiations.

The Australian cricket model which was copied by the ARU and then SANZAR and then the R12 is a perfectly valid model but centrally controlled elites in all walks of life don't last, compared to a wider distribution of interests and access. In the short term it has created a conflict between local clubs and franchise/regional models. As a season ticket holder I prefer clubs but I would wouldn't I ?

Fair comments, Recwatcher. However, your assumption that Pro 12 teams choose to concentrate their elite players is not really accurate. Ireland has central contracting around some (but not all) of its international players. Wales doesn't have central contracting, and the recent increasing exodus to England and France is a sign of that. Scottish players have moved away from their home regions. Italian players are based in France and England. Aironi is already down the tubes.

In effect the greater salaries in England and France are already making a difference. The only union holding out against this would appear to be the IRFU. If the English and French can manage to break the Irish hegemony, it's game over. Given the parlous state of Ireland's economy, that shouldn't be too difficult.
Any HC negotiations by Ap and O14 will seek to re-enforce this dominance presumably.

TJ wrote:Its worth finishing 4th to get into the playoffs - you asked was there a benefit in finishing 4th rather than 6th - the answer to that is yes

Read it again slowly. "If your team doesn't win the thing (Pro12), is there a benefit in finishing fourth rather than sixth?

how would it not be difficult to break ireland's hegemony?? the irish goverment just pumped 2.7m into the irfu...rugby is growing over here

LeinsterFan4life wrote:how would it not be difficult to break ireland's hegemony?? the irish goverment just pumped 2.7m into the irfu...rugby is growing over here

Pumped? €2.7m for what exactly?

im not gonna go into to detail about it but one of the things the funding is for is council operating costs (including salaries), core grants local sports partnerships etc...so i dont think it will be too easy to break the hegemony...

hi Leinsterfan4life

Ireland has a population of over 6m

yes rugby is a major sport in Ireland unlike England where it's something of a minority sport (mostly in the south these days) -

the structure of Irish rugby has got completely out of balance to the detriment of the national side and benefit of the provinces - when you follow Ireland you sometimes think that the national team is a development platform for the major provinces (usually Munster) and not the other way round

nope your wrong the reason why our national side is failing is because of declan kidney...how is the structure of irish rugby out of balance?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:im not gonna go into to detail about it but one of the main things the funding is for is council operating costs (including salaries), core grants local sports partnerships etc...so i dont think it will be too easy to break the hegemony...

So admin costs, current expenditure, etc. Not sure how that kind of meagre investment will help in an ongoing salary negotiation for players across three provinces.

i said i wasnt goin into detail about it...what i said is 7-13% of the overall budget of 2.7m...does it not go without saying that money will be pumped into the provinces? guess not.

Croyman wrote:the structure of Irish rugby has got completely out of balance to the detriment of the national side and benefit of the provinces - when you follow Ireland you sometimes think that the national team is a development platform for the major provinces (usually Munster) and not the other way round

I disagree Croyman. In fact the entire setup is in favour of the national team. There are so many restrictions on the provinces that teams from other nations don't have to endure. On who they can sign, how many minutes the players can play, even sometimes a province can be told what position to play a player, to get him ready for the national team. The whole setup is weighted against the provinces and in favour of the test team.

That's what makes the disparity in performances even more puzzling and annoying. Well just annoying, not puzzling. Both the provinces and the test team started to improve in the noughties. The provinces have continued the rise. The national teams ascent stopped abruptly and reversed in 2010. When the IRB changed the laws to try to reduce the type of rugby Kidney teams play. At that point in 2010 his time was up.

I know people are often quick to criticize the coach and fans can lazily scapegoat a coach. But in this case it's just so obvious.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:i said i wasnt goin into detail about it...what i said is 7-13% of the overall budget of 2.7m...does it not go without saying that money will be pumped into the provinces? guess not.

Well you didn't say anything about 7-13% of the overall budget of 2.7m. You just said the Irish Government had pumped €2.7m into the IRFU. I fail to see the significance of such a small sum. And 7-13% of 2.7m is about 350k max so I don't know what you're referring to. The IRFU has annual budget income of about €70m. Players and Management costs are about €30m annually for the IRFU. A once off Govt. dribble (rather than pump) of €2.7m won't make a massive impact.

English teams were involved in half the quarter finals and lost all four to... the French. This is the French who traditionally don't take Europe seriously and have relegation and injury worries in their domestic league, yes the exact same worries the English have. Yet somehow the PRO12 structure is the big problem?

Before the Italians joined the PRO12 they were total whipping boys yet now they have shown some improvement albeit slow. Pro rugby could work in Italy with it's potential market and dragging them up to a higher level is the only way they will improve. Yet it seems that rather than want teams to improve the overall quality there are posters who would rather bring the standard down to their own level. How is that good for the long term spectacle of the sport or the competitiveness of the Test teams?

The Great Aukster wrote:English teams were involved in half the quarter finals and lost all four to... the French. This is the French who traditionally don't take Europe seriously and have relegation and injury worries in their domestic league, yes the exact same worries the English have. Yet somehow the PRO12 structure is the big problem?

Before the Italians joined the PRO12 they were total whipping boys yet now they have shown some improvement albeit slow. Pro rugby could work in Italy with it's potential market and dragging them up to a higher level is the only way they will improve. Yet it seems that rather than want teams to improve the overall quality there are posters who would rather bring the standard down to their own level. How is that good for the long term spectacle of the sport or the competitiveness of the Test teams?

The answer is this is been driven by the greed of the English clubs who care not a jot about anyone other than them themselves.