3 of the 4 top teams in Europe are from the Rabo

First topic message reminder :

Discuss.........

PS. Leinster have to play the other 3 top teams in Europe, 3 weeks in a row.

I would say Newcastle aren't great either, similar for Wasps and Worcester and Bath for now. The best league will probably always be the one your team plays in as it's most interesting to you. Other than that it depends on how you define it and is largely pointless

The reason why the top 14 and the Aviva aren't getting as much success as they would expect is because they play top clubs against top Regional teams who consists of the best players per region, not best clubs.

I don't see how that's an issue. The premiership clubs bring together the best players they can within the cap, from academy or externally.

That may be true, but splitting your best between 12-14 clubs means your strnegth is dilluted. splitting them between 3-4 teams means they aren't as dilluted.

You can just look at the Super Xv, when there were less teams australian teams did much better than now with more teams.

Same principal applies.

I agree with you Biltong, but didn't the Reds do pretty well last year?

Yeas they did, they won, but that was the first title for australia in a decade.

You also need to understand how they got there. Every conference is guaranteed a place, So the log leader from each Conference goes through automatically.

The Reds played the Rebels and the Force twice, that secured them a home semi and final.

The Crusaders only got to play one match against the force. So the reds walked their conference by gaining near full log points against those two teams.

If it was a deifferent format, they would most likely not have had such an easy conference or round robin.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

HERSH wrote:It just goes to show what can be achieved when clubs can afford to rest players for meaningless games.

But well played to Leinster, Edinburgh and Ulster.

Don't see how that makes any difference our sides can do whatever they want outside the HC.

That is true, but of course it makes a difference as the best players play less games therefore they are fresher for the big HC games.

Can we please file this article in the 'who gives a sh.com/it please.

This is no different to saying all the top four teams statistically have more players with black hair!
The Aviva has plenty of good teams as does the top 14 but with relegation over your shoulder it's hard to focus on Europe until you have made it out of the group.

It's just the way things go sometimes.

Also may I add that the rabo is a complete pile of gash.
Edinburgh have been dire all season and do you think they really are quality European Team?
It's. the first time out of the group! It just proves that knock out rugby depends on small moments.

As a welsh man the sooner the rabo is scrapped the better.

viewtothegym wrote:Can we please file this article in the 'who gives a sh.com/it please.

This is no different to saying all the top four teams statistically have more players with black hair!
The Aviva has plenty of good teams as does the top 14 but with relegation over your shoulder it's hard to focus on Europe until you have made it out of the group.

It's just the way things go sometimes.

Also may I add that the rabo is a complete pile of gash.
Edinburgh have been dire all season and do you think they really are quality European Team?
It's. the first time out of the group! It just proves that knock out rugby depends on small moments.

As a welsh man the sooner the rabo is scrapped the better.

Agreed

There wont be any ring fencing of either the Top 14 or Aviva.

What has to be realised is that as the game develops in the professional age then the competitions will also develop - money talks....Next year the Aviva will be increasing the Cap to 4.5 allowing the wealthier teams to increase their spend and squad size.

Seperately I dont think it willl be to long before we see a change in the qualification for the european competitions. Again money talks and the smaller Unions will struggle for their seats at the table. This I imagine will mean fewer automatic places for the Pro Direct sides.

The european competitions have generally been a write off for the Aviva teams this year, however in the context of this tumultuious 2011/12 season it is understandable. The clubs are already regrouping and will be stronger next year. The up side will be a little more rest before the summer tour. Ultimately it is a question of balancing club and national priorities, whilist still developing the game as a whole and not overplaying the players within an inch of their lives!

to be fair on other sides there's a large range of budgets size of pools other match commitments etc etc among all the entrants - it's a bit like football only the really well funded clubs can compete effectively

viewtothegym wrote:Can we please file this article in the 'who gives a sh.com/it please.

This is no different to saying all the top four teams statistically have more players with black hair!
The Aviva has plenty of good teams as does the top 14 but with relegation over your shoulder it's hard to focus on Europe until you have made it out of the group.

It's just the way things go sometimes.

Also may I add that the rabo is a complete pile of gash.
Edinburgh have been dire all season and do you think they really are quality European Team?
It's. the first time out of the group! It just proves that knock out rugby depends on small moments.

As a welsh man the sooner the rabo is scrapped the better.

And the Welsh and English teams are piles of gash too

viewtothegym wrote:Can we please file this article in the 'who gives a sh.com/it please.

This is no different to saying all the top four teams statistically have more players with black hair!
The Aviva has plenty of good teams as does the top 14 but with relegation over your shoulder it's hard to focus on Europe until you have made it out of the group.

It's just the way things go sometimes.

Also may I add that the rabo is a complete pile of gash.
Edinburgh have been dire all season and do you think they really are quality European Team?
It's. the first time out of the group! It just proves that knock out rugby depends on small moments.

As a welsh man the sooner the rabo is scrapped the better.

Edinburgh a quality european team??
well i think they have just proved that by winning 6 out of 7 games in europe so far on what is one of the smallest playing budgets.
ps not the first time edinburgh have made it out the group stages

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Well I wasn't actually expecting a discussion. But don't you get a pain in your hoop listening to what a shyte league it is, and how it will never amount to anything. (Even from posters who support a team in it sometimes)

gowales wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Can we please file this article in the 'who gives a sh.com/it please.

This is no different to saying all the top four teams statistically have more players with black hair!
The Aviva has plenty of good teams as does the top 14 but with relegation over your shoulder it's hard to focus on Europe until you have made it out of the group.

It's just the way things go sometimes.

Also may I add that the rabo is a complete pile of gash.
Edinburgh have been dire all season and do you think they really are quality European Team?
It's. the first time out of the group! It just proves that knock out rugby depends on small moments.

As a welsh man the sooner the rabo is scrapped the better.

Agreed

The Welsh are disillusioned with their regions and all out of the HC so therefore the league is a "pile of gash"

Perhaps the flipside is the Irish are doing well in Europe and therefore the league is great.

There are a number of issues with the League. (Bad organisation, jokey citing process, dodgey refs etc) But the big issue is a lack of tradition and the fact that it is such a young league. (a bit like the Welsh Reigons)

I started this thread as a bit of a laugh and did not expect a big reaction. But the number of responses would perhaps point to it perhaps not being filed under loadamebollix.com

A lot of,posters are saying that it's to easy for pro 12 teams get entry into the hcup, but I think it easier for English clubs. Put it this way if Leicester tigers were Irish they prob wouldn't qualify for the h-cup (finish above Leinster Munster or ulster). Connacht would have a better chance of qualifying for the h-cup if they were playing in the Aviva.

The Aviva and Top14 generate smeg loads of smegging cash.
The Pro12 on the other hand is still only worth a case of awful cider.

Some interesting stats from Cleary in the Telegraph.

Nine of the R12 sides have had qualification to the HC for the last five years, only one English team has achieved that, Leicester. Last season five of the R12 sides who qualified for the HC had more losses than wins from their league performance. There have only been three French/English sides where this has happened in the last five years.

I was at the Edinburgh game and enjoyed it but Toulouse were poor and had their best backs missing through injury, Edinburgh had a fully fit squad and that clearly made a difference to the game and they deserved to win accordingly.

The English clubs will address the challenge by raising the salary cap - will this be bad news for the R12 ? Leicester, Bath, Glaws, Saints, Saracens, Quins & Sale all have the funds to create larger squads of Test standard players to cope with both the AIs, 6Ns and the HC demands.

Less certain is whether the pool stages of the HC will be played as a block of six games - french tv might veto that move but pretty sure talks have been held on the subject.

I find the economics behind the whole game fascinating, pretty sure the bottom up structures, as opposed to centralised structures will come out on top in the end but the process will be interesting to watch.

Edinburgh have a tiny fraction of the budget of the English sides.

You cannot argue that French sides do well because they have more money but rabo sides do well cos they can rest players more.

Edinburgh have a tiny playing budget and far less strength in depth than most other teams. they have concentrated on the HC this season. They get hammered in the rabo during the 6N period as they loose all thier best players -

the English teams do poorly in the HC as the style of rugby they play does not work against HC teams - English, Irish, welsh or French.

I can't believe so many people have taken the bait here.

the rabo is getting better year on year...its still a young league and the standard is already rising rapidly

Bit sour grapes and predictable for English support etc to have a dig at the Rabo again.

I'm confused though how Pirates can afford a new ground when their own support had to help redevelop the Mennaye?

viewtothegym wrote:Can we please file this article in the 'who gives a sh.com/it please.

This is no different to saying all the top four teams statistically have more players with black hair!
The Aviva has plenty of good teams as does the top 14 but with relegation over your shoulder it's hard to focus on Europe until you have made it out of the group.

It's just the way things go sometimes.

Also may I add that the rabo is a complete pile of gash.
Edinburgh have been dire all season and do you think they really are quality European Team?
It's. the first time out of the group! It just proves that knock out rugby depends on small moments.

As a welsh man the sooner the rabo is scrapped the better.

They've got through the group stages in 2004 as well.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I can't believe so many people have taken the bait here.

Because people who dig at the Rabo are doing it more than once. Surely even a poor wum doesn't need to recycle a poor dig?

Two competitive leagues, against a gentleman's club who have nothing to play for but the European cups. If you can't get relegated, and fail in that league, just try again next year but forget about the league lets be a cup side.
As for ring fencing the premiership, never, in the long run relegation will increase healthy clubs, I prefer watching games in the league that mean something each week other than a meaningless social event.

clalan wrote:Two competitive leagues, against a gentleman's club who have nothing to play for but the European cups. If you can't get relegated, and fail in that league, just try again next year but forget about the league lets be a cup side.
As for ring fencing the premiership, never, in the long run relegation will increase healthy clubs, I prefer watching games in the league that mean something each week other than a meaningless social event.

Love posts like this when teams from the premiership dont cut it in best competition in Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/9193545/Why-the-Heineken-Cup-reverses-international-form.html

Best club tournament in the world with the latter stages comparable to the Six Nations according to Brian Moore this morning.

He obviously never played in the Super Rugby tournament

Artful_Dodger wrote:

clalan wrote:Two competitive leagues, against a gentleman's club who have nothing to play for but the European cups. If you can't get relegated, and fail in that league, just try again next year but forget about the league lets be a cup side.
As for ring fencing the premiership, never, in the long run relegation will increase healthy clubs, I prefer watching games in the league that mean something each week other than a meaningless social event.

Love posts like this when teams from the premiership dont cut it in best competition in Europe.

I love how you keep ignoring what other people are saying

I don't actually but in the case of the above someone referring to the Heineken Cup as a 'social event' is well worth being ignored in its entirety. As Moore points out in his piece best standard of rugby in any club competition, very successful crowd numbers, this year more than ever with some of the biggest names in rugby on show.

Social event - get a grip.

biltongbek wrote:He obviously never played in the Super Rugby tournament

Personally I agree with Moore- I think the HC is better.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I don't actually but in the case of the above someone referring to the Heineken Cup as a 'social event' is well worth being ignored in its entirety. As Moore points out in his piece best standard of rugby in any club competition, very successful crowd numbers, this year more than ever with some of the biggest names in rugby on show.

Social event - get a grip.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the Pro 12 as a social event. Read again...

Maybe so its quite ambiguous - regardless, if he wants to watch the Aviva instead of the Rabo thats not exactly surprising given that he's English.

I think the Rabo is irrelevant to the structure of the HC, HC spots are allocated to countries not leagues. If English teams dont like things they can change their own structures not interfere with how other Union's allocate theirs.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

biltongbek wrote:He obviously never played in the Super Rugby tournament

Personally I agree with Moore- I think the HC is better.

I suppose that why it is a personal opinion. However there is sufficient proof that the talent is in the Southern Hemisphere when you consider how many of their players play in the HC.

No doubt biltong southern hemisphere players are a big part of why the HC is so good - quarter finals wouldn't of been the same without the likes of Nacewa, Afoa, Pienaar and Sivivatu.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I don't actually but in the case of the above someone referring to the Heineken Cup as a 'social event' is well worth being ignored in its entirety. As Moore points out in his piece best standard of rugby in any club competition, very successful crowd numbers, this year more than ever with some of the biggest names in rugby on show.

Social event - get a grip.

The part about social event concerned the closed shop league, not the Heineken Cup, or unless you believe that being in the bottom half of a league with virtual guaranteed HC place means there is something to play for other than pride, it then becomes a very enjoyable social event.
This is not a criticism of teams (you play how the league states) but an attack on the very idea of no relegation or the chance of hope or for lower league clubs.
Really tho the whole idea of sport is that it is a social event meant for enjoyment, excitement of the fans/supporters, so hardly derogatory.

As someone else said, the best league is the one you follow.

The Rabo league has really helped Irish consolidate Irish teams development. Outside of Ireland however the league has failed to appeal to the local rugby public as evinced by attendances.

There can be no doubting the quality of the irish sides nor how well Edinburgh exploited Toulouse weaknesses.

Well English sides have been awful this season, with French sides not much better. Yesterday summed it up with Sarries outnumbered in the stands, outclassed on the pitch. Hope Farrell senior stays there...

I was seriously dissappointed with saracens yesterday, they were very poor.

biltongbek wrote:I was seriously dissappointed with saracens yesterday, they were very poor.

Tell me about it, they just didn't show up. Really predictable back play, no spark or creativity. It's a shame because we know they can play when they want to.

But generally, teams that are usually strong have had awful seasons - Bath, Wasps et al.

The leagues don't need to change; the HC is a representative competition for the club/province/regions in the 6N countries.

However, a level playing field in the HC would be to play the Pool games over six straight weeks. That means that all teams are playing with the same demands on their players. The problem would be when to play the games, with the AIs normally scheduled for November.

Move the AIs back a week and there would be room to do this.

Risca Rev wrote:Bit sour grapes and predictable for English support etc to have a dig at the Rabo again.

I'm confused though how Pirates can afford a new ground when their own support had to help redevelop the Mennaye?

you do realise that it's not just english posters having a dig..

Ireland have a distinct advantage. They only have four teams, of which three are competitive. Within those three lies their international squad. Wales are similar. However, they don't have a union controlling player development and movement between regions, and their players are now heading to England and France in their droves. They were successful in the 6N this year, but I suspect that success was in spite of, rather than due to their regional setup.

It stands to reason that a team like Leinster will do well if they've got 9 or 10 internationals on their team compared to the likes of a Cardiff Blues, Bath or Racing Metro. I don't know if anyone has done the analysis, but I'd suspect that most, if not all, successful teams in the H Cup have a strong international component in their team.

The Premiership rugby bosses would like the Pro12 to be more competitive and to have placings decide European qualification in order for first team players having to put in more game time during the season. In addition, they want a more meritocratic spread of teams qualifying across the current leagues, rather than by country allocations.

To my mind, this is minor tinkering, and would not have much effect. Let us imagine for a moment that top 8 system was in place for the Pro12. Who are the teams likely to succeed in getting there? It would be a fair bet that Leinster and Munster would make it through withouthaving to change stride much to get into the top 8.

Unless winning the Pro 12 or where you are placed within the league has some value.

The view from outside of the Pro12 is that the league is a joke, a social event, meaningless, of no value, no one really tries, etc, etc. And if this holds true then teams like Leinster and Munster would only have to worry about winning about 50% of their games in order to qualify under a top 8 scheme. That's less than they do currently with no motivation or requirement to qualify.

If qualification for the European Cup is all that Munster or Leinster are really interested in, then top 8 placings would be a good thing for them. They could probably afford to rest their entire A team and coast through the season, and turn their full attention on the H Cup. But what about the likes of say Edinburgh or Dragons, or Treviso who might find themselves struggling to get the 7th and 8th spots in the league? They would be forced to put out their first team a lot more to win league placing points. By the time, they arrive into H Cup pool games, they'll be as flogged as their Premiership counterparts, and will exit just as quickly.

nathan wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Bit sour grapes and predictable for English support etc to have a dig at the Rabo again.

I'm confused though how Pirates can afford a new ground when their own support had to help redevelop the Mennaye?

you do realise that it's not just english posters having a dig..

Agreed. It's more than just English posters. Welsh, French, Irish are all unhappy with the league structures and how meritocratic they really are.

The Premiership rugby bosses would like the Pro12 to be more competitive and to have placings decide European qualification in order for first team players having to put in more game time during the season. In addition, they want a more meritocratic spread of teams qualifying across the current leagues, rather than by country allocations.

To my mind, this is minor tinkering, and would not have much effect. Let us imagine for a moment that top 8 system was in place for the Pro12. Who are the teams likely to succeed in getting there? It would be a fair bet that Leinster and Munster would make it through withouthaving to change stride much to get into the top 8.

So no Italian interest in in the HC, not much Scottish. I think that rather devalues a European club cup

kingelderfield wrote:There wont be any ring fencing of either the Top 14 or Aviva.

What has to be realised is that as the game develops in the professional age then the competitions will also develop - money talks....Next year the Aviva will be increasing the Cap to 4.5 allowing the wealthier teams to increase their spend and squad size.

Seperately I dont think it willl be to long before we see a change in the qualification for the european competitions. Again money talks and the smaller Unions will struggle for their seats at the table. This I imagine will mean fewer automatic places for the Pro Direct sides.

The european competitions have generally been a write off for the Aviva teams this year, however in the context of this tumultuious 2011/12 season it is understandable. The clubs are already regrouping and will be stronger next year. The up side will be a little more rest before the summer tour. Ultimately it is a question of balancing club and national priorities, whilist still developing the game as a whole and not overplaying the players within an inch of their lives!

The Pro Direct sides??

Do they play the Aurora Tip 14 sides in Franceland?

What tumultuous season have the Premiership sides experienced that makes their lack of progress in European competitions understandable?

If the wealthier sides benefit from an increased salary cap next year, how meritocratic is that for the Worcester, Sale and Exeter style clubs? Will an increased salary cap make European qualification almost a certainty for the wealthier clubs, and they won't have to worry about relegation either? So all they have to worry about is finishing in the top 4 of the league?

I watch all three European leagues when I can. The Top 14 obviously means a lot to the French and the passion of the fans is obvious, but it really does serve up the worst rugby of the three. Apart from Toulouse and Clermont it's terrible drop goal rubbish mostly.

I really enjoy the English league. I kind of follow London Irish. It's probably a lower quality overall than the Rabo though. Their best sides are slightly weaker than the best Rabo sides. And their worst are probably slightly worse than the Rabo's. Same with the middle. But it's a competitive and enjoyable league to watch. Love Quins this year. And it does have more bite than the Rabo.

My favourite is the Rabo, because Leinster are in it. I like the way the lack of relegation has encouraged sides to trust in young players. We see the results in the HC and 6 Nations. It's producing better talent than the other two leagues. Next year, for the 2nd time in a row the Lions will be dominated by Pro 12 players. I prefer the style of rugby played in the Rabo. It's more open and attacking.

Whenever English teams fail in Europe there's immediately this tendency to start pointing the finger at the Rabo and saying it's not fair and calling for the Rabo to change.

1. The Rabo can organize itself in any way it wishes. If the English think it's not fair then maybe they should look at their own setup and change it to be more like the Rabo. Otherwise just deal with it and stop whinging.

2. The Leinster academy is producing better players than any other domestic team in Europe and they're playing better rugby than any other domestic team in Europe. They have one of the strongest squads in Europe in terms of depth too, and could rotate it no matter what league they played in. They would be the best team in Europe no matter what league they played in. The English cannot change how good Leinster are. They can only attempt to improve themselves to catch and surpass them. And changing qualification rules won't do that.

TJ wrote:

The Premiership rugby bosses would like the Pro12 to be more competitive and to have placings decide European qualification in order for first team players having to put in more game time during the season. In addition, they want a more meritocratic spread of teams qualifying across the current leagues, rather than by country allocations.

To my mind, this is minor tinkering, and would not have much effect. Let us imagine for a moment that top 8 system was in place for the Pro12. Who are the teams likely to succeed in getting there? It would be a fair bet that Leinster and Munster would make it through withouthaving to change stride much to get into the top 8.

So no Italian interest in in the HC, not much Scottish. I think that rather devalues a European club cup

Astutely observed, TJ. Except that wasn't the point I was attempting to make. The Premiership wants a dog fight in the Pro 12 so that teams can't rest their players like they currently do. In seeking this change, I doubt very much they have Edinburgh in mind. Currently only Connacht and the Dragons have to fight for their HC spots and broadly fail, instead relying on other teams winning trophies to gift them a place. In a revised top 8 scheme, then if Scarlets, Edinburgh and Treviso have to join them in a scrap, so be it. They need Leinster, Munster, Ulster and possibly Ospreys and Cardiff to be more distracted/focused on their league placing so they're more likely to falter in the European Cup. And if that gives the Premiership a couple of extra places in the comp, even better.

Not sure how winners of the Heineken, Amlin and LV Cup would get handled in this scenario of top 8 teams across all three leagues.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I watch all three European leagues when I can. The Top 14 obviously means a lot to the French and the passion of the fans is obvious, but it really does serve up the worst rugby of the three. Apart from Toulouse and Clermont it's terrible drop goal rubbish mostly.

I really enjoy the English league. I kind of follow London Irish. It's probably a lower quality overall than the Rabo though. Their best sides are slightly weaker than the best Rabo sides. And their worst are probably slightly worse than the Rabo's. Same with the middle. But it's a competitive and enjoyable league to watch. Love Quins this year. And it does have more bite than the Rabo.

My favourite is the Rabo, because Leinster are in it. I like the way the lack of relegation has encouraged sides to trust in young players. We see the results in the HC and 6 Nations. It's producing better talent than the other two leagues. Next year, for the 2nd time in a row the Lions will be dominated by Pro 12 players. I prefer the style of rugby played in the Rabo. It's more open and attacking.

Whenever English teams fail in Europe there's immediately this tendency to start pointing the finger at the Rabo and saying it's not fair and calling for the Rabo to change.

1. The Rabo can organize itself in any way it wishes. If the English think it's not fair then maybe they should look at their own setup and change it to be more like the Rabo. Otherwise just deal with it and stop whinging.

2. The Leinster academy is producing better players than any other domestic team in Europe and they're playing better rugby than any other domestic team in Europe. They have one of the strongest squads in Europe in terms of depth too, and could rotate it no matter what league they played in. They would be the best team in Europe no matter what league they played in. The English cannot change how good Leinster are. They can only attempt to improve themselves to catch and surpass them. And changing qualification rules won't do that.

Feckless, you might be wearing blue-tinted Rabo sponsored glasses.

Some of the Pro12 matches during the season are dire muck and lacklustre affairs.

Leaving aside the fact that for their own reasons, PR wants the Pro 12 to change and reduce, is there merit from Pro12 point of view, in making competition for places more intense than currently operates? And how might that be achieved?

Pot Hale wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I watch all three European leagues when I can. The Top 14 obviously means a lot to the French and the passion of the fans is obvious, but it really does serve up the worst rugby of the three. Apart from Toulouse and Clermont it's terrible drop goal rubbish mostly.

I really enjoy the English league. I kind of follow London Irish. It's probably a lower quality overall than the Rabo though. Their best sides are slightly weaker than the best Rabo sides. And their worst are probably slightly worse than the Rabo's. Same with the middle. But it's a competitive and enjoyable league to watch. Love Quins this year. And it does have more bite than the Rabo.

My favourite is the Rabo, because Leinster are in it. I like the way the lack of relegation has encouraged sides to trust in young players. We see the results in the HC and 6 Nations. It's producing better talent than the other two leagues. Next year, for the 2nd time in a row the Lions will be dominated by Pro 12 players. I prefer the style of rugby played in the Rabo. It's more open and attacking.

Whenever English teams fail in Europe there's immediately this tendency to start pointing the finger at the Rabo and saying it's not fair and calling for the Rabo to change.

1. The Rabo can organize itself in any way it wishes. If the English think it's not fair then maybe they should look at their own setup and change it to be more like the Rabo. Otherwise just deal with it and stop whinging.

2. The Leinster academy is producing better players than any other domestic team in Europe and they're playing better rugby than any other domestic team in Europe. They have one of the strongest squads in Europe in terms of depth too, and could rotate it no matter what league they played in. They would be the best team in Europe no matter what league they played in. The English cannot change how good Leinster are. They can only attempt to improve themselves to catch and surpass them. And changing qualification rules won't do that.

Feckless, you might be wearing blue-tinted Rabo sponsored glasses.

Some of the Pro12 matches during the season are dire muck and lacklustre affairs.

Leaving aside the fact that for their own reasons, PR wants the Pro 12 to change and reduce, is there merit from Pro12 point of view, in making competition for places more intense than currently operates? And how might that be achieved?

PR being Premiership Rugby?? If so why the hell would we give a damn what they want?

Pot Hale, relegation can't happen with the Pro 12. And the prize money and TV money will always be much smaller than the French and English competitions. So the Heineken Cup will always be the top priority of the Pro 12 sides. And the league will always be a secondary competition for the teams and their fans. The English just have to deal with that. They can't change it.

However I think you're right, it would make the league better if it was harder for teams to qualify for the Heineken Cup.

But the Heineken Cup is owned and run by all 6 unions. The whole point of it is to let the domestic teams of all 6 unions compete against each other. So all 6 unions will always get places. That won't change. It can't.

The only thing you could do is reduce the number of automatic spots for Rabo teams. Two each for Ireland and Wales and one each for Scotland and Italy. The remaining four could be based entirely on league position? Can't see the 4 Rabo unions agreeing to that.

But let's face it. It would still be easy for the likes of Leinster to qualify, and the same complaints would be heard from England. The Irish just priorities the HC. They target the HC games and prepare brilliantly for them. This isn't gonna change. Like I said the English just have to stop complaining and try and beat them. If someone else is setting the standard, you just have to try and reach that standard, not try and change the rules to make them worse.