John Afoa cited.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/16480.php

Hoping he doesnt miss the Semi Final - was it dangerous?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NfO2jjNivyU

No I don't accept that. That depends on the trajectory and angle of the impact. Landing on the back is every bit as dangerous as landing on the side or upper arm.

Not really, if you land on the flat or your back the impact is spread of a much greater area, an area that is generally well protected. Impact with the floor on the shoulder, neck or head is a far more focussed impact and puts pressure on a part of the body that is not meant to cope with that level of strain. Hence why the reference to the hips and shoulders is often used.

If you lift someone off the floor as part of a tackle but cannot control their landing then that is dangerous. No one is forcing Afoa to lift the player as part of the tackle it is his choice therefore he is responsible for putting him down safely. As I said above it's lower end of the scale stuff but it is poor technique as really he wants to have more of his body behind the tackle so he can drive the player backwards and gain a greater control of the landing.

Was it ignored by the ref due to the knock on seconds before hand? If it warrents a citing then surely the game should have been stopped?

There were a lot of players gathered around the incident at the time so the ref may not have had the best view, ditto for the TJs. As such he may have included it in his report so the citing commissioner could have a look but at the time he may have felt he didn't see enough of the incident to make the proper decision.

Personally i thought that the ref was standing in the perfect position to see it but thought that he waved play on due to the knock on, i may be wrong though and somewhat bitter that he didnt see yellow and allow Munster to win

formerly known as Sam wrote:
If you lift someone off the floor as part of a tackle but cannot control their landing then that is dangerous. No one is forcing Afoa to lift the player as part of the tackle it is his choice therefore he is responsible for putting him down safely. As I said above it's lower end of the scale stuff but it is poor technique as really he wants to have more of his body behind the tackle so he can drive the player backwards and gain a greater control of the landing.

Sorry but that is total nonsence. We are talking about real time tackles here were the defender has a split second to adjust and make a tackle at an onrushing player taking a pass.

Afoa's technique was impeccable and if this is deemed as dangerous play then it is then rugby union has no future as a contact sport.

I think it could come down to whether the panel think there was any element of "driving" as Jones came to ground.

If they don't see any driving then surely it is not a red card by their definition?

I still expect a short ban and I agree it needs to be looked at. We must do what we reasonably can to keep the players protected from unnecessary risks, where possible!

I have seen it back a few times and i must say that it looked alot worse in real time. Slowed down it actually looks a decent hit. Possible ban going by the precedent set but a good hit all the same

MrsP wrote:I think it could come down to whether the panel think there was any element of "driving" as Jones came to ground.

If they don't see any driving then surely it is not a red card by their definition?

I still expect a short ban and I agree it needs to be looked at. We must do what we reasonably can to keep the players protected from unnecessary risks, where possible!

MrsP, the 'driving' bit for me was in his upwards motion in the initial element of the tackle, rather than when their combined weight causes them both to collapse - I presume that will make a difference

roddersm wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
If you lift someone off the floor as part of a tackle but cannot control their landing then that is dangerous. No one is forcing Afoa to lift the player as part of the tackle it is his choice therefore he is responsible for putting him down safely. As I said above it's lower end of the scale stuff but it is poor technique as really he wants to have more of his body behind the tackle so he can drive the player backwards and gain a greater control of the landing.

Sorry but that is total nonsence. We are talking about real time tackles here were the defender has a split second to adjust and make a tackle at an onrushing player taking a pass.

Afoa's technique was impeccable and if this is deemed as dangerous play then it is then rugby union has no future as a contact sport.

Rodders,

Afoa shouldn't be banned IMO. I do not think that it was a red card offence. However you heard me at the match I was livid that he was not yellow carded. A dangerous tackle that should have been dealt with by the ref with a penalty and yellow card.

The fact is that players are going higher and higher in the tackle and driving upwards. 20 years ago this tackle wouldnt have happened. Afoa would have gone for his legs and felled the player. Instead he chose to drive upwards, lifting and turning him in the tackle. He took care not to drop or drive him downwards so no red card.

Anyway the main thing is that I would expect Afoa to be available for the semi final.

At full speed I still reckon it looks like he picks him, turns him and drives him down.

red_stag wrote:
Rodders,

Afoa shouldn't be banned IMO. I do not think that it was a red card offence. However you heard me at the match I was livid that he was not yellow carded. A dangerous tackle that should have been dealt with by the ref with a penalty and yellow card.

The fact is that players are going higher and higher in the tackle and driving upwards. 20 years ago this tackle wouldnt have happened. Afoa would have gone for his legs and felled the player. Instead he chose to drive upwards, lifting and turning him in the tackle. He took care not to drop or drive him downwards so no red card.

Anyway the main thing is that I would expect Afoa to be available for the semi final.

Stag I had more or less the same view as you (although I was watching the ball mostly) and my first reaction is that Afoa could be in trouble. After watching the replay I believe it was a good tackle.

These driving tackles are becoming more and more frequent because players are becoming bigger and stronger by the season. Without opening a can of worms here maybe the IRB want to get serious about clamping down on PED's before we end up like NFL and get car crash collisions every game.

With regards the SF, if Afoa is found guilty of foul play then he should miss it. I'm not in favour of tolken bans mind you given Ulsters rabo position even missing the next two games could be costly enough. That is not the issue though.

LondonTiger wrote:At full speed I still reckon it looks like he picks him, turns him and drives him down.

Certainly no apparent determined interest in getting him safely back to ground, LT

Rodders, there is no way rugby can be like the NFL. In NFL the tackling is pathetic. There are big hits yes, but these come without using the arms so it can't happen in rugby.

Portnoy wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:At full speed I still reckon it looks like he picks him, turns him and drives him down.

Certainly no apparent determined interest in getting him safely back to ground, LT

As i said, at full speed i wanted colours to be shown yellow or red, i didnt care at that time as i desperately wanted Munster to win. However after watching it over and over again i cant see too much wrong with it. These sort of tackles should not be taken out of the game.

Whats a 'good tackle' though rodders?
Like I say, in the heat of a game, the harder/fiercer the tackle, the less chance of an offload, more chance of a spilled ball. You simply do not go easy because going easy allows more chance of an offload.

Its hard on the players. I personally dont agree with the horizontal technical detail. I don't think that tackle was dangerous. I've said it before, if we wanted to eradicate danger you wouldnt allow to players to challenge for a catch in the air.

The aim shouldnt be to eradicate danger, its fuppin' rugby for goodness sake! The aim should be to eradicate irrisponsible idiocy or dangerous intent. Neither of which were evident in this instance.

The problem is that its hard to determine motivation so they bring in details. details such as horizontal players, bringing down safely. Truth is though, a player being above horizontal does not automatically mean danger.

Look at paddy wallace that time doing a cartwheel! What next - "you must not dive on a ball if a player is about to kick it because it will result in him flipping over and landing on his head!"

If you 'force a players upper body down to the ground' should be the ONLY stipulation in the law IMO

Jones moves his neck close to the end of the clip. If he doesn't he lands on his neck. It's a bad tackle lads.

Thomond wrote:Rodders, there is no way rugby can be like the NFL. In NFL the tackling is pathetic. There are big hits yes, but these come without using the arms so it can't happen in rugby.

True but my point is that the force of the impact is proportional to the size and strength and speed of the players. These tackles weren't as frequent years ago because players were nowhere near as powerful. The issue, if there is one in this case, is down to simple biomechanics rather than any foul play or wrong doing from Afoa in my opinion.

You have a point, but when you're lifting a guy, there is a second when you think "Oh sh#t, I could end up dumping this guy on his head, better adjust"

To be honest when the game is going at 100 miles an hour I'm not sure much goes through your head in that instance. You act and react.

Its exceptionally easy to watch a replay and judge someone with hindsight.

I just think it is extremely harsh to call it foul play when someone makes a textbook tackle and the impact of the drive through takes a player to his feet.

Unless the tackled player is recklessly dropped or upended and driven in a torqueing action I don't see it can be an offence.

Ironically the easiest way to avoid the 'tip' is to tackle a player from the chest up but that carries and even greater risk imo.

roddersm wrote: ...These tackles weren't as frequent years ago because players were nowhere near as powerful.

This maybe a little off-topic but that is a very good point rodders. I know the gym has been cited a quite the balancer of Rugby since the professional era (and also the downfall in the eyes of a few people!) and the weights some of them are lifting through pro-longed training are immense, easily the weight of a player and more. Greater consistency of existing rules or a review of the rules may well be needed to prevent the inherent risks of such increased strenght from progresses in sports science.

Oh god, dont say that rodders has a good point. For the love of god man we will never hear the end of it

You know i luv ya rodders

I also think that when a taller lighter player runs at pace at a shorter player then chances are with sound technique applied i.e. the tacklers shoulder applied to the attackers midrift then the chance are the attacker will be lifted off the deck.

The angle and force of the impact will determine the direction and angle of the fall much more than the tackler.

I'm pretty short and when taller players ran straight at me it wasn't uncommon that they were lifted off the deck with the force of the tackle and it wasn't necessarily intentional.

Once in the air its not that easy to control the landing especially if they are bigger. Chances are the tackler with try and turn midair to look for an offload or to place the ball so it really is a lottery, even if the tacklers technique is sound.

eirebilly wrote:Oh god, dont say that rodders has a good point. For the love of god man we will never hear the end of it

You know i luv ya rodders

....actually billy... I think you'll find he said I had a very good point .....

roddersm wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Oh god, dont say that rodders has a good point. For the love of god man we will never hear the end of it

You know i luv ya rodders

....actually billy... I think you'll find he said I had a very good point .....

Oh christ, so it begins

MrsP has been unusually muted on this. This is the kind of thing that she loves, could it be that because its an Ulster player she is keeping a low profile?

eirebilly wrote:MrsP has been unusually muted on this. This is the kind of thing that she loves, could it be that because its an Ulster player she is keeping a low profile?

Probably not a good sign for Afoa ....

Don't worry Johnny boy I've got your back big man!

roddersm wrote:

eirebilly wrote:MrsP has been unusually muted on this. This is the kind of thing that she loves, could it be that because its an Ulster player she is keeping a low profile?

Probably not a good sign for Afoa ....

Don't worry Johnny boy I've got your back big man!

Aye, rodders, Afoa might get past some guff ERC citing panel, but when he gets THE lecture from MrsP, it'll be clean underwear time for Big John!

ignore

Aah you know we are only joking Rava

Billy I have studied the video footage and can only see Jones jumping into Afoa's arms and then arching his back to make it look dramatic All this as Afoa was trying to make sure he put him back down feet first.

It was the Welsh tactic of diving into a tip tackle position to win a penalty and yellow card Rava. He has'nt mastered it as well as the Welsh but when he does...

I think everyone is forgetting about one thing. Zebo gave the man a hospital pass! He should never have been in that position. It's all Zebo's fault.

Hospital passes should warrant a red card.

Surely this all has to be Declan Kidneys fault? He has to be blamed at some stage. This could be what gets him sacked as Irish manager

We need a 3am drunken Gibbo rant to explain to us how this is all 'Deccies fault

eirebilly wrote:MrsP has been unusually muted on this. This is the kind of thing that she loves, could it be that because its an Ulster player she is keeping a low profile?

As far as I know Stephen Ferris is an Ulsterman too, no?

There is a lot less to say about this one though. It was potentially dangerous, at least a penalty, probably a yellow and possibly a red. The "other one" was none of those.

Plus, so far, the discussion has remained in contact with reality and lacking in the unfortunate and, at best, thinly disguised hatred of the other thread.

Munster fans rock!

Or they just use thicker disguises Mrs P .......

eirebilly wrote:Surely this all has to be Declan Kidneys fault?

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this.

MrsP wrote:

eirebilly wrote:MrsP has been unusually muted on this. This is the kind of thing that she loves, could it be that because its an Ulster player she is keeping a low profile?

As far as I know Stephen Ferris is an Ulsterman too, no?
There is a lot less to say about this one though. It was potentially dangerous, at least a penalty, probably a yellow and possibly a red. The "other one" was none of those.

Plus, so far,the discussion has remained in contact with reality and lacking in the unfortunate and, at best, thinly disguised hatred of the other thread.

Munster fans rock!

I hate it when you use logic against me. Not fair as you know its my weak spot

Sorry William.

I really hate it when you think that you have planted a good WUM and it only comes back to bite you in the bottom.

Who is this William?

Cari called me IrishWilliam on the weekend as well

William of .... Holland? .......

There is now William in my name.

Billy was my nickname as a kid. Billy Bacon.

Rava wrote:Billy I have studied the video footage and can only see Jones jumping into Afoa's arms and then arching his back to make it look dramatic All this as Afoa was trying to make sure he put him back down feet first.

Superb!

eirebilly wrote:There is now William in my name.

Billy was my nickname as a kid. Billy Bacon.

Wow Billy is kevin Bacon!

Hollywood superstar. Not Hollywood near Bangor either

As i see it Felix Jones should either apologise to big John or thank him for setting him down nicely

I've just watched this one again, and I have to say, it's a bad tackle. Afoa will have been very lucky if he is eligible to play in the semi final.

rodders,

That was my thinking too!

Sorry folks, maybe you’ve been through this already but if the citing commission deem it to be a yellow card offense then will he be banned?

Not saying they will or they won’t, just wondering what’s the protocol in general.

My understanding is this Mickado

The citing commissioner views the footage and it is he who decides if he thinks it warranted a red card. If yes, then he can cite the player. Once cited, the judicial panel do not have to satisfy themselves that it should have been a red card, only look at the incident as it is.

Ozzy3213 wrote:My understanding is this Mickado

The citing commissioner views the footage and it is he who decides if he thinks it warranted a red card. If yes, then he can cite the player. Once cited, the judicial panel do not have to satisfy themselves that it should have been a red card, only look at the incident as it is.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks Ozzy.

He'll get a ban i think, nothing too hectic but he'll miss the Semi Final.

I'm not sure that is correct Rodders.

The disciplinary panel can decide to not uphold the citing, effectively saying that they do not consider it a red card offence and therefore they will take no further action.

The citing officer has to feel it might be a red card offence in order to refer it but the panel can disagree as happened with Ferris.